Was Moses a Muslim? The Islamic view.

[Revkha]

Jews and Christians witness the killing of innocent Muslims every week without an ounce of compassion. Many have justified that all 1.2 billion of us are "colateral damage" if we get in

This is a blanket statement that has no merit. Where in the world do you see Christians battling against Christians (other than N. Ireland) or Jews battling to death other Jews. But in Iraq Muslims kill other Muslims (Iraqi Muslims who are innocent) to prove an ideological point - solely to sow the seeds of unrest. And killings occur in Mosque. What about the Palestinian family who recently tried to prevent one of the terrorist groups from firing rockets into Israel from the family's property. What happened. The Muslim terrorists killed one Muslim and wounded other Muslim members of the family. And you don't believe that we feel compassion for that family and disbelief that such an occurrence would happen. When terrorists are killed, we do not weep, when innocents are killed, we weep - it may not be with external tears but we do feel compassion. Killing innocent people is not part of the Judeo-Christian belief.

[andak01]

This is a blanket statement that has no merit.

Perhaps I should have said "many" to be certain that I don't imply all. See below.

Where in the world do you see Christians battling against Christians (other than N. Ireland) or Jews battling to death other Jews.

Many of the Hutus and Tutsis were Christian.

Rwandan Bishop charged with genocide.
http://www.afrol.com/News2001/rwa004...p_genocide.htm

Jean de Dieu Kamuhanda, former minister
http://www.hirondelle.org/hirondelle...f?OpenDocument

Arusha, January 22nd 2004 (FH) - Former Rwandan Minister for Higher Education Jean de Dieu Kamuhanda was on Thursday sentenced to life in prison by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR) for committing genocide.

The tribunal found him guilty of two counts, genocide and extermination as a crime against humanity.


The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is a Christian based terror group that has killed hundreds, kidnapped children and made them fight and committed many attocities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2083241.stm

There are tens of thousands of gang members in the US and other countries that commit hundreds of homicides every year. Many of them have crosses or the Virgin Mary tatooed to their bodies.

A branch of the Mormons has begun their own violent sect which has been involved in several murders.

http://www.exmormon.org/violence.htm

Warning: Christians should not be judged by the actions of violent people who happen to also be Christian. Neither should Muslims be judged by our own worst representatives.

And killings occur in Mosque.

As opposed to the actual bombing of Mosques which is justified here and elsewhere.

What about the Palestinian family who recently tried to prevent one of the terrorist groups from firing rockets into Israel from the family's property.

That's a great story. It didn't get much press.

What happened. The Muslim terrorists killed one Muslim and wounded other Muslim members of the family.

But I'm guessing this part of it did.

Killing innocent people is not part of the Judeo-Christian belief.

I know. I read it in the Quran.

Surah Maidah 5:32
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.

And for those Jews and Christians that listened to that message, they have this to look forward to.

5:69
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

[Mediocrates]

This is a blanket statement that has no merit.

No he's right. I have little if any compassion. If you show no mercy you will be shown no mercy. What would be the benefit in weeping for a group who collectively and officially want me and mine wiped off the face of the earth? Now people here can wag a childish little finger and lisp about fairness but I simply don't care. I know who wants me dead and who doesn't. And lets be realistic the odds of Jews being murdered by Jews for political reasons or gain are slim to none. The odds of IRA Provos blowing up someone in the name of Jayzus is vanishingly small. Religious differences might have been the root cause of some of these conflicts 500 years ago but since then all these conflicts have been about politics. That is the definition of politics; where conflicts happen. And if that means that muslims blow each other up, for whatever reason then it just sucks to be them. Go cry on someone else's shoulder.

[MichaelC]

Perhaps I should have said "many" to be certain that I don't imply all. See below.



Many of the Hutus and Tutsis were Christian.

Rwandan Bishop charged with genocide.
http://www.afrol.com/News2001/rwa004...p_genocide.htm

Jean de Dieu Kamuhanda, former minister
http://www.hirondelle.org/hirondelle...f?OpenDocument

Arusha, January 22nd 2004 (FH) - Former Rwandan Minister for Higher Education Jean de Dieu Kamuhanda was on Thursday sentenced to life in prison by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR) for committing genocide.

The tribunal found him guilty of two counts, genocide and extermination as a crime against humanity.


The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is a Christian based terror group that has killed hundreds, kidnapped children and made them fight and committed many attocities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2083241.stm

There are tens of thousands of gang members in the US and other countries that commit hundreds of homicides every year. Many of them have crosses or the Virgin Mary tatooed to their bodies.

A branch of the Mormons has begun their own violent sect which has been involved in several murders.

http://www.exmormon.org/violence.htm

Warning: Christians should not be judged by the actions of violent people who happen to also be Christian. Neither should Muslims be judged by our own worst representatives.



As opposed to the actual bombing of Mosques which is justified here and elsewhere.



That's a great story. It didn't get much press.



But I'm guessing this part of it did.



I know. I read it in the Quran.

Surah Maidah 5:32
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.

And for those Jews and Christians that listened to that message, they have this to look forward to.

5:69
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

andak continues to think that his attempts to mitigate the reality of muslim barbarism by whatever means he can conjure will somehow distract everyone from the continuing carnage constantly brought to us by the adherents of that religion.

He would do better to bravely institute a public process within islam that denounced the terrorists in their midst demanding that their names be published as pariahs. He should in this public process call for fatwas against these so-called desecraters of islam. Very bizarre that some muslims claim that jihadists act against the faith and yet no fatwa has ever been issued against them while such scurrilous screeds are common against any perceived act or even thought that might insult islam.

Of course this will never happen, because no muslim has the courage to do such a thing.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe they will and maybe they won't. And if they prostrate themselves on the altar of moderation, who cares? what will it solve? Gun toting maniacs aren't going to be shamed into rational behavior, the people who recruit them in the mosques and other places aren't going to suddenly worry. See radical Islam is refreshing in a weird way. It says right up front "We are coming to kill you". It says it in the mosques, the newspapers, the college campuses and the internet. Its acolytes both muslim and nonmuslim say with a straight face "We need to kill more Jews and Americans wherever they are." I don't see 'moderation' as a meaningful force against that. I don't see how the andaks of the world have any bearing on that one way or the other.

[MichaelC]

Maybe they will and maybe they won't. And if they prostrate themselves on the altar of moderation, who cares? what will it solve? Gun toting maniacs aren't going to be shamed into rational behavior, the people who recruit them in the mosques and other places aren't going to suddenly worry. See radical Islam is refreshing in a weird way. It says right up front "We are coming to kill you". It says it in the mosques, the newspapers, the college campuses and the internet. Its acolytes both muslim and nonmuslim say with a straight face "We need to kill more Jews and Americans wherever they are." I don't see 'moderation' as a meaningful force against that. I don't see how the andaks of the world have any bearing on that one way or the other.

I quite agree with you Medio. My suggestion was to indicate to andak that coming here with his lame mitigation is a worthless exercise, and that he ought to take his “fight” to the actual battlefield. I do, however, think that if such a movement should be created within islam, as I have often fantasized, it might serve to relax some of the tension and distrust concerning all muslims that people like myself just cannot seem to shake given that there is no particular voice within islam against these things.

andak of course will come up with a quote or three from obscure, unknown muslims from obscure unknown places who have said this or that against the jihadists, but he cannot produce an organization nor a movement within islam that is working to “reclaim” the faith from the so called non-muslims with their millions of supporters who commit their atrocities in the name of allah with no retribution in the form of fatwas. I just consider that an important point to make and so I work at it.

[Alfred]

I don't think Moses was Jewish. He was a Hebrew of course, but I believe from a different tribe than Judah.

[Mediocrates]

Quite perceptive. Probably Ezekiel was the first Jew.

[andak01]

No he's right. I have little if any compassion. If you show no mercy you will be shown no mercy.

I've read enough of your posts to doubt that you mean that statement to extend to those who haven't done anything. For example, would you have suggested that we line up every German in front of a firing squad after WWII? Fact is, we all have to live with the sins of our fathers. There has always been and will always be struggle between peoples of different faiths. The issue is to prevent it from escalating and causing violence. It's one of control and prevention rather than anihilation. You have both a right and a duty to protect yourself from aggressors that want to kill you. Extending that to retribution violence against people that haven't aggressed is what creates the cycle of violence.

Compassion is a gift that begets compassion and violence begets more violence. My suggestion to Muslims and to everyone is give more compassion than you receive.

[Mediocrates]

I've read enough of your posts to doubt that you mean that statement to extend to those who haven't done anything. For example, would you have suggested that we line up every German in front of a firing squad after WWII? Fact is, we all have to live with the sins of our fathers. There has always been and will always be struggle between peoples of different faiths. The issue is to prevent it from escalating and causing violence. It's one of control and prevention rather than anihilation. You have both a right and a duty to protect yourself from aggressors that want to kill you. Extending that to retribution violence against people that haven't aggressed is what creates the cycle of violence.

Compassion is a gift that begets compassion and violence begets more violence. My suggestion to Muslims and to everyone is give more compassion than you receive.

I honestly don't think that much about people who haven't done anything to me or claim to want to. It's not up to me to extract retribution or appology from the German people. Sadly the only the people who can do that are all dead. If we defer to the biblical tenet of 'unto the third generation' or 'unto the 10th generation' that is fine by me because some cultures and some nations really do stain themselves with iniquity for a thousand years or more. I wish them no ill wil nor do I really care what misfortunes befall them either.

But politics are [is?] what they are. If you show no mercy you will be shown no mercy. Maybe pity is a better word. I for one am completely content to watch the politics and nation states of the arab world plunge themselves into the dark ages. If they literally bring back the days of Baal and human sacrifice, I do not care.

[Batman]

Isn't the important question who or what group Moses thought he was a part of? Anything else is just putting our view, distanced by history and time, and colored by our own narrow and self interested views.

If I remember correctly, Moses didn't say 'I am the prophet for all people', but instead went to Pharoh and said 'Let my people go' in reference to the Hebrews. It is clear from that example, and many others I am sure that can be dug up, that Moses felt he was a member of the Hebrews, or Israelites.

As to Muslim 'appropriation' of Moses as a prophet, I am all for it if they actually followed his precepts, like say the 10 Commandments. But I just don't see that happening on a large and serious scale. Some do, but the precepts of Islam support lying for example which, as I understand it, contracdicts a few of Moses' basic commandments.

GOOD POINT. and let the Moslems at least follow the 10th commandment:
"thou shalt not covet your neighbor's house !"

and the sixth commandment: "Thou shalt not murder!" which the Moslem Arabs apply in order to achieve your covetting inclination and in order to steal their Jewish neighbor's house etc.

They are going against their own Koran!

How many centuries have the Arabs been murdering Jewish people of Israel in order to steal their homes and land? The only reason Jewish people left Hebron and East Jerusalem in 1929 was because of the Arabs' riots which when the Arabs murdered in cold blood and committed many atrocities against the Jewish communities of these areas thus causing them to flee. After that the Jordanians (Arab Palestinian population led by the Hashemite kingdom) took over these lands and destroyed all the synagogues and tried to pretend East Jerusalem and Hebron belongs to them.

But G-d wanted these lands in Jewish hands as the miracles of the 6 Day War proves!

Shemot- Exodus :Chapter Exodus
6th Commandment; Verse 13: "Thou shalt not kill.": The word "ratsach" is commonly believed to describe the premeditated killing of a human.

10th Commandment; Verse 17 :"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his , nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

"Covet" is a word that is gradually going out of usage. One set of definitions of the word is:

To wish for enviously.
To desire inordinately or culpably ~ vi: to feel inordinate desire for what belongs to another.

[andak01]

But politics are [is?] what they are. If you show no mercy you will be shown no mercy.

That's exactly what the Quran says over and over. In every place where there is talk of violence, it is followed by a big BUT. BUT, if they relent, show them mercy. BUT, if they ask for asylum, show them to a place of protection, etc. Everyone here has read the list of those quotes taken without the BUTS.

002.191
...but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

002.192
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

002.193
...but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

002.194
The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

009.004
But the treaties are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

009.005
...but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.006
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

004.078
...But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?

[Mediocrates]

Yes of course all religions to my knowledge have some notion of redemption or grace or something like that. At least in the abstract. I suppose those there is a still a notion of collective guilt - so 'innocent' at least in a purely religious context is not always so simple to put your finger on. I would submit that the great "But" or "Unless" is a gigantic chasm in many ways. That one word is really all about the path to righteousness and therein lies the way to goodness and also butchery and fanaticism too.

[Batman]

THAT IS THE REASON MY ARGUMENT THAT THE MOSLEMS GO AGAINST THE KORAN IS TAKEN FROM A REAL EXPERT (BUT, BIG BUT NOT YOU) AND BTW THERE ARE SOME MOSLEMS WHO DO NOT HATE ISRAEL LIKE YOU AND DO SIDE WITH ISREAL'S SIDE, ANDAK!!!!!!!!
:
Maulana Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi Head Imam of Italy

Bible and Qur'an state quite clearly that the right of the Israelites to to the Land

....... big BUT. BUT, .......... BUT...... BUTS.

002.191
...but

002.192
But
002.193
...but

009.004
But 009.005
...but
004.078
...But

For those who are too tired to read the quotes Andak posted these jutify the murder of Jewish people.

[Mediocrates]

Why are you picking? He didn't wire up bombs. You asked a question and he answered it.

Does anyone want to debate with me the savagery contained in Re'eh taken on its face?