Has Israel replaced Judaism as a religion ?

[Yosef]

Great site , Great forum , really shows the "connection" of our people .

I'm an american jew working in the UAE (United Arab Emirates) , and I was thrilled to see that this forum hasn't been censored by the ISP here .

Anyway .... I have been reviewing the forum for a few weeks now , and was struck by the realization , that although we jews have a long history of democracy , freedom of speech , and equality ... almost any member that dares disagreeing with the generally accepted ideas in the Israeli (jewish) community , gets insulted , called a pig , anti-semitist ....etc .

Every human being loves his/her country ...... but to see some members , and some jews (back in the states) that fervent , to the degree of insult , and isolation of disagreeing brethren ..... is alarming for me ...... jewish brotherhood comes before anything ....... even before Israel .

A lot of speculation and thought on this matter has led many writers and jewish thinkers , specially in the US , to explain it by presuming that the support of Israel as a political establishment and state , has replaced Judaism as a religion ...... I know this firsthand , for now and more than ever , jews that rarely do anything related to organized judaism , show their "religious" side by just supporting Israel , and that for them , is more than enough to prove jewish ....

Why is that a problem ? Because Judaism as a religion is perfect , you can't go wrong ...... Israel however , although a prophecy ..... is handled by people , human beings ...which can and will go wrong at times ..... and when that happens , we jews , should be able to critisize that , without being afraid of being called "self-haters" ....... the consequence of keeping it up the way it is ...... is not just the shunning of some people and alienating them ...... it risks destroying the foundation of jewish unity .... and that comes before all ..... what is the meaning of having a state if we're ready to jump at the throat of a fellow jew for disagreeing ?

I know for a fact that for thousansd of years .... our community has survived division ...... yet for some reason division now is looming more dangerous than ever ...... which pleases the anti-semites no doubt .... believe in Israel .... but I want to know that I CAN and WILL critisize an action or policy that I don't agree with .

Whereas i seems that the only critisizm allowed here is of europeans and leftist jews .

Transparency people ....... we invented it !!

[MGB8]

Judaism is not perfect, as it too is interpreted by people.

Israel is not perfect, but it has the right to exist, as the ONLY jewish homeland, and what happens here is that when Lefty Jews suggest ideas that might very much raise the chances of the genocide of the Jews of Israel, and the destruction of the Jewish homeland.

Many Arabs and Muslims don't understand the Jewish necessity for a homeland, even as they support all means used for Muslims to conquer ANOTHER homeland, not like the Arabs don't have 22 states already, and 57 Islamic nations....

BTW, Yosef is generally not the Jewish spelling of that name...

[Yosef]

Thats the way its written in my Passport

Wasn't discussing what arabs or muslims understand ........ was dismayed at the fact that members attack other jews .... for stating their mind .... never presume that you or anyone else is the only one that knows whats good for Israel ..... I'm sure the "lefties" love Israel too ..... I'd rather discuss it to the end and reach common grounds rather than quickly jump to the "anti-semitic" "self-hater" frisby .

Hertzel was a leftist socialist .... not a rabbi .

[MGB8]

Socialism is not a divisive issue. It doesn't raise passions.

The only thing that raises passions here are Jews who propose policies that endanger other Jews or the state of Israel.

There are PLENTY of self hating Jews, or Jews so arrogant in their safety, who so under-estimate the Arabs, that they are willing to ignore what the Arabs say about Israel, what they do, etc. These people wilfully ignore, for example, what the PLO textbooks and media says about Jews and Israel - comparing Jews to monkeys and pigs, genetically greedy and untrustworthy, and that their is no Israel, just a "Zionist entity" occupying Arab land - ALL of Israel being that "occupation."

And there are plenty of Lefty Jews who hate Israel - Vanunu, Chomsky, Bobby Fischer, the list goes on and on.

Anyone willing to put my family at great risk, because of their arrogance in the weakness of people who want to kill my family - those people are dangerous. Like Nazi apologists in the 1930's.

[Macc]

Yosef Jews don't have to agree with other Jews, they can use any form of expression and persuasion they wish.

People don't always agree, it does not matter that they have common ancestry, culture or religion; sorry but in the real world it does not work like that.

[TheMightyAndo]

I consider myself to be a Jew, and if people want proof i can trace it back hundreds of years. My family lived in Palestine long before many of the members of the Zionist movement moved there in the 1890s. Although i was born in the UK, i have as much Israeli soil in my blood as anyone.

However, because i wish to serve in the IDF as a career officer, and because i don't want to wander around wearing green and killing every Arab i see, i am often called a "self-hating" Jew. I tend to take a moderate stance on all things political, i wouldn't be able to accomplish my goals as a soldier if i paid close attention to the politics of the situation. Unfortunately, i am blessed with an analytical intellect, and as such i can't help but be "involved" in the politics of Israel. However, I have to remain objective. I can also see the point of many of the more liberal Palestinians, that they lived in the country side by side with my family and many other Jews for years before the current struggle. I have Arab friends, and I love them as much as my Jewish kin. People are people at the end of the day. I love Israel, so much so that i am willing to lay my life on the line time and again to protect it's borders and destroy it's enemies. Which is more than a lot of the "religious" Jews that dish out these insults can say.

The way i see it, the Hassidic community spout a lot of scheiss about handing out punishment and dealing in death, but how many of them serve in the IDF and protect the country they state is theirs by right? How many of the devoutly religious, right-wing Jews that make such comments are willing to back up their statements with their own blood?

We all have to remember that originally the Israeli-Arab conflict was purely territorial. In '67 the vast majority of Jews in Israel were moderately secular, as were the Arabs, particularly the Palestinians. Religion was not an issue. It is only in the last ten or fifteen years that religion has taken a central position as an issue. The Israeli-Arab conflict is now more of a clash of ideologies, the original problems and issues having been forgotten and replaced by racial hatred.

We can blame the right-wing religious factions in Israel for this as much as Islamic fundamentalism. Religious zealotry on the part of the Jewish settlers in the Territories was a problem long before the rise of fundamentalism on the part of Muslims. In many ways, the rise of fundamentalist Islam in the territories is a direct result of religious fervour from the settlers.

Don't get me wrong, i do not support the Palestinian cause, i firmly back Israel all the way. But there are two sides to every story. If being Jewish means being a xenophobic, racist bigot such as many of the extreme right in Israel, then sure, I'm a self-hater. But if it means belonging to an ancient brotherhood, a family of wanderers and exiles with a connection that surpasses religious and nationalistic ties, then count me in.

[TheMightyAndo]

However, MGB8, if there is any risk to your family or loved ones, you can count on the fact that I would be one of the first people in line to defend you. So no "lefty" Jew comments against me, please. I think you owe me more respect as an individual and future IDF officer than that.

[Yosef]

"I have Arab friends, and I love them as much as my Jewish kin. People are people at the end of the day. I love Israel, so much so that i am willing to lay my life on the line time and again to protect it's borders and destroy it's enemies"

Very good point .....

When I first landed in UAE , a traditionally conservative islamic country .... I expected everything from anti-semitist remarks , to violence against me .... because I was proud of being jewish and willing to show it .

Nevertheless ... I was amazed ... that no arab or muslim I've met .... showed any of those tendencies .... Israel to them is an illegitimate state ... that much is true about the propaganda we hear about what arabs think .... but apart from that ..... Jews to Muslims , are closer than Christians .... I went on a business trip to London with a muslim arab ... and he ordered "Kosher" .... and then I discovered that they consider jewish "slaughter" "allowed" in Islam ..... most of them would fervently attack Israel .... but concerning judaism as a religion ..... they are disappointed that jews left the arab countries (where they had lived in peace for centuries) to live where they were under attack ......

two opinions .... and two points of view .... I believe in the Israeli one no doubt ..... but lets face it ....... Israel has 5 million jews surrounded by 300 million arabs and 1.4 billion muslims ..... It wouldn't be the smartest thing to do , to "bedevil" every arab or muslim indefinately .... the US won't stay where it is forever .... and we all know that if it weren't for the US support Israel's fate would have been decided long ago .So its stupid ... and it is dangerous to bet our future as a nation on foreign support , and the work of our Lobby as AIPAC is DC .

I'm pro-Israel , and Pro-Dialogue at the same time ...... if we as jews say that we're the most enlightened ...etc , then we should act by it ..... most of the insults and stereotypes I've heard here are very similar to the ones ive heard from extremist arabs about zionists (which are different from jews , to them) ......

Btw Arabs are semites too .... anthropologically , and biblically .... them sons of Ishmael , and we sons of Isaaq . Anti-Semites in europe are as much against arabs and muslims , as they are against jews .

Looking through history ..... I couldn't find any incidents of anti-jewish nature in the Islamic Dynasties that ruled the Middle East .... as opposed to Europe's organized and systematic anti-semitism .

As for the "pigs and donkeys" ....... I asked a muslim scholar about these issues .... specially that ive heard it too ....... seems that they believe that a certain clan of jews disobeyed God fighting the "Philistines" after the Exhodus from EGypt .... so God turned them into pigs and donkeys ... so not ALL jews ......

My knowledge in Islamic culture is very limited ...... but I tried to get my hands on some booklets describing Islam (meant for non-arab muslims) , and one of the pillars of Faith in Islam seems to be the necessity of believing in the authenticity of Judaism , and the Torah .... being a heavenly religion .

Bottom line is : sure they want to destroy Israel ..... and sure they hate zionists and Zionism ...... but they're not inherently opposed to Israel .... it is the media and education ...... similarly .... jews around the world aren't inherently opposed to Arabs .... but its the circumstances .... circumstances change .... feelings change too . And like I said ..... on the long run , believing our "superiority" alone won't be enough to protect us .... we'll always be outnumbered and outpowered ...... its great that Israel survived this long .... but without a serious peace initiative ..... and dialogue ... and a jewish community that can and will sit at a table with arabs (for real , not for press conferences) then we're all at stake .... and were better off in Diasporah ..... at least back then we pilgriomaged without being afraid of getting blown up by a suicide bomber .

Ciao !

[Yosef]

oh and by the way ..... "Socialism is not a divisive issue. It doesn't raise passions" ........ whats that supposed to mean ? Hertzel was a "lefty" ...... yet he's the Godfather of Israel ... would you attack him , had he been posting in this forum ?

And I agree with ando ..... its a territorial issue ......

[Mediocrates]

I think it's crazy to lend any credence to someone who selectively plucks out aspects of someone else's relgion like its a cult, takes it upon themselves as their own and then proceeds to tell you that all the things HE rejects should be exerminated. After all, the Spanish Catholics of the Inquisition were themselves well versed in the Pentateuch and more than a few read Hebrew. It think it's nearly 100% pure Bullsh***t for someone to say "Oh I don't mind Judaism so much - - - it's all the Jews and Israelis I want dead."

I bet all those people you know will tell you you are a credit to your race and how so many of their friends are "Jewish" too. I wish you well with your conversion to Islam though.

[Mediocrates]

If you wear culture like a fashion accessory then maybe we don't have anything at all in common. Make a crucifix/mogen david/crescent/buddha necklace and call it a day.

[Canajew]

Yosef,

what you say is sensible and I believe you rheart is in the right place, applying these principles to real life is not nearly as simple. Israel girded its people for peacable coexistence and compromise and trade and the rest with the Palestinians during the 1990s. the Palestinians girded for war, smuggling in weapons and setting up terrorist organizations right from the beginning. They then pre-meditatively launched this current war with the central docvtrine being the targeting of civilians.

They want Israel destroyed and will not stop until they either realize they have lost and that they should give up, or until they are successful. How are all of your "we can all hold hands and sing in harmony" principles supposed to help this given the level of indoctrination of the Palestinaisn by their govenrment and media, and how is an understanding of the other supposed to achieve anything more than it did during the 90s.

And by the way, Jews suffered from profound overt institutionalized antisemitism in the Arab world for centuries, and as much as the arabs who live there say it was all rainbows and sunshine, it is probably necessary to get a different point of view. I am not the one to provide it, but there are lots of materials out there and on this board somewhere.

Also, I think you don't really understand the distinction between socialist and what is meant by left-wing. Left wing is a lable, and not a very good one. People can be right wing economically and left wing on military/diplomatic issues and somewhere in betwen on sociocultural issues and equity rights and the like.

When the left wing is attacked here, it is the military/political left wing. those who assert that understanding and empathy are sufficient to get psychopathic maniacs to stop threatening your family. Those who think that Israel depfening itself is what leads to arab aggression, and if only Israel would stop such "provocation" everything would be just fine. the people who blame the US for causing the hatred which led to 9-11, ignoring the culture of jihad which necessitates such a struggle against the US and the west regardless of what actions it may or may not have taken.

Herzl was not a leftist on this axis, and so would not have had the criticisms you believe he would have.

Of course economics has advanced by leaps and bounds in the past 1000 years, as have technological and industrial and organizational realities, and so there likely would be many criticisms of his economic perspectivek, but this is a different issue. It is not the socialism which triggers animocity, but the blame us for everything and let us prostrate ourselves at your infinite mercy and wisdom so we call all get along point of view.

It is childish, simplistic, and just plain wrong.

[KSO]

oh and by the way ..... "Socialism is not a divisive issue. It doesn't raise passions" ........ whats that supposed to mean ? Hertzel was a "lefty" ...... yet he's the Godfather of Israel ... would you attack him , had he been posting in this forum ?

And I agree with ando ..... its a territorial issue ......

Herzl wasn't a lefty and he was very anti socialist, he was a keen autheritarian and was very thrilled by the european colonialism.

[MGB8]

Yosef, of course, has it right that situations change. That's why peices of paper aren't all that valuable, especially, if like in the case of Egypt, a "peace treaty" is followed by the Government propagandizing hatred towards Israel and Jews.

Nor is it a purely territorial issue - the issue is whether land that was once Dar Al-Salaam can be ruled by any other group, regardless of whether they are acknowledged to have come from there (and Arafat and the Pals have done their best to deny the Jewish history in Israel and Jerusalem, as laughable as that is) or have a majority their or purchased the land.

Its a psuedo-religious issue...one that conceptually predates western notions of nationalism and goes back to the Muslim Ummah (the great Muslim state) or what we could analogize to the middle age Christian "nationalism" by the Church.

Where it just a territorial issue, giving up 5-7% of the WB for Israel to have secure borders wouldn't be an anethma for the Arabs, and the false "right of return" wouldn't be insisted on.

As for the "futility" of fighting the Muslim world - Israel has survived so far, and that's where the SAMSON OPTION comes in. The Muslim world understands that the destruction of the Jewish State EQUALS the destruction of Mecca and Medina, among other places. Israel has this much leverage. It may never be able to "defeat" Islam, but it can wound it fantastically, so that it is never the same - so that the Haj is no longer possible (radiation) and the Kabbah stone no longer exists.

M.A.D. = THAT is what the "Muslim street" must learn to fully appreciate - and only when their dreams of destroying Israel are felt to be impossible and undesirable will the Muslim world begin pursuing other options.

Meanwhile...don't forget that Muslim Iran, pre-Ayatollah, was a trading partner of Israel, and Turkey somewhat of an ally. Don't forget that King Faud had ties with Herzl, when they came up with the compromise on Palestine that gave East of the Jordan to the Arabs and West to the Jews....

[NewsGuy]

Very interesting thread, Yosef. Welcome to the forum.