Poll: 59% say W. Bank, Gaza exit would renew peace process

[Gatorade]

Has the PLO Charter ever been officially amended and is the amended charter on any PLO websites?

The Palestinian National Authority website still has its old charter that says

Article 9:
Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine and is therefore a strategy and not a tactic. The Palestinian Arab people affirms its absolute resolution and abiding determination to pursue the armed struggle and to march forward towards the armed popular revolution, to liberate its homeland and restore its right to a natural life, and to exercise its right of self-determination and national sovereignty.

Article 19:
The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel is null and void from the very beginning, whatever time has elapsed because it was done contrary to the wish of the people of Palestine and their national right to their homeland and contradicts with the principles embodied in the charter of the UN, the first of which is the right of self-determination

http://www.pna.org/mininfo/key/charter.htm

It says it is going to amend it but I don't see the amended version anywhere.

[ibrodsky]

They plan to amend it after they destroy Israel.

Making "peace" with the PLO/PA makes about as much sense as making peace with Osama bin Laden.

[takeo]

"The PNC held a special session on April 24, 1996 and listened to the report made by the legal committee, reviewed the current political conditions, which the Palestinian people and the Arab nations encounter, and so the PNC decided: "Depending on the Independence Declaration and the political statement adopted by the PNC in its 19th session in Gaza on Nov. 11, 1988 which stressed resolving conflicts by peaceful means and adopting the principal of two states, the PNC decides to:

First: Amend the articles in the National charter that contradict with the letters exchanged between the PLO and the government of Israel on Sept. 9-10, 1993.
Second: The PNC authorizes the Legal Committee to draft a new charter to be presented at the first meeting to be held by the Central Council. "

I think you forgot to mention this in your quoting...

http://www.nad-plo.org/permanent/sumpalpo.html
the official plo-website which implicitly recognises israel....

"But of course you only quote neutral sources"

of course this is not a neutral soure, on the contrary as you would use a likud-site, i will not use it for information-gathering, but only for prooving what is written in the official website, in other words i use this website not as an objective study but as a subjective source. i would use a likud-site too to proove that Likud will NEVER recognising a palestinian state.
(so if the palestinians would argue like you guys, why make peace with people who don't want peace with us???)

"According to the Palestinians Israel is properly recognized ... non-existent. Remember, they don't believe Israel has the right to be in the land G-d gave Abraham."

some people use religious arguments to cleanse all israel and occupied territories of non-Jews, those people are not any better than the worst fundamentalists and are as reasonable as Osama bin laden...

"The map, published by the Palestinian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities and entitled "Palestine, the Holy Land Tourist Map," indicates that "Palestine" occupies the entire area between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. Israeli territory is nearly blank on the map, with only a smattering of cities identified, mainly with outmoded Arabic names. "

actually there is a difference between the historic palestine, which includes israel (even herzl called it palestine) and Palestine as a contemporary political entity. Palestine will be used if references are made to the pre-1948 history and for cultural purposes.
you can make a tourist map of Baja California and California together (or French and Spanish basque land), which doesn't necessarily have any secessionist goals
if you use it in a political context however it would be frightening...

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo http://www.nad-plo.org/permanent/sumpalpo.html
the official plo-website which implicitly recognises israel....
of course this is not a neutral soure, on the contrary as you would use a likud-site, i will not use it for information-gathering, but only for prooving what is written in the official website, in other words i use this website not as an objective study but as a subjective source.

Very good site, very well written, must have been written by an American lawyer. So what you will be satisfied with is what the PLO requests on this site?

Originally posted by takeo some people use religious arguments to cleanse all israel and occupied territories of non-Jews, those people are not any better than the worst fundamentalists and are as reasonable as Osama bin laden...

If you are suggesting that those who hold a biblical perspective on the issue of Israel's possession of the land equates with UBL's attitude and behavior, I would remind you that this is blatantly not the case. I hold a biblical world view. My premise is that Israel holds a divine mandate to possess the land. Having failed to do that in history under the direction of Joshua, they will likely always have trouble trying to obey that mandate, especially in a world that is as hostile as ours today. I do not advocate the eradication of Palestinians, I advocate the removal, by lethal force if necessary, of those people who refuse to accept 1) Israel's right to exist, and 2) the concept of peaceful co-existence with Israel. I am not convinced that the Palestinians will ever come to that place, especially as long as they continue to preprogram their children for violence toward their Jewish neighbors.

Originally posted by takeo actually there is a difference between the historic palestine, which includes israel (even herzl called it palestine) and Palestine as a contemporary political entity. Palestine will be used if references are made to the pre-1948 history and for cultural purposes.

Palestine I understand, its Palestinians and who confuse me.

Originally posted by takeo you can make a tourist map of Baja California and California together (or French and Spanish basque land), which doesn't necessarily have any secessionist goals if you use it in a political context however it would be frightening...

True, but we don't have disgruntled Frenchmen and Spaniards (the bloody occupiers) blowing us up. We don't even have alienated Mexicans blowing us up. As a matter of fact, they come here by the hundreds to have a better life. Like I said , it is Palestinians who confuse me.

With all the increase in fertility, profitability, and prosperity that has come to the land since the return of the Jews, I can only assume that it is jealousy and envy that has driven the Palestinian bitterness. If the land were given back, it would be just a few short years and it would once again be the untilled waste land that it once was. History has been known to repeat itself from time to time. It seems to me that the only time there has been a strong agricultural presence in Israel is when the Jews are there. Why seek to run them off?

[takeo]

"If you are suggesting that those who hold a biblical perspective on the issue of Israel's possession of the land equates with UBL's attitude and behavior, I would remind you that this is blatantly not the case. I hold a biblical world view. My premise is that Israel holds a divine mandate to possess the land. Having failed to do that in history under the direction of Joshua, they will likely always have trouble trying to obey that mandate, especially in a world that is as hostile as ours today. I do not advocate the eradication of Palestinians, I advocate the removal, by lethal force if necessary, of those people who refuse to accept 1) Israel's right to exist, and 2) the concept of peaceful co-existence with Israel. I am not convinced that the Palestinians will ever come to that place, especially as long as they continue to preprogram their children for violence toward their Jewish neighbors. "

so actually you support Israel because you believe it is the Holy Jewish land? well, so the parallel with OBL is that you do not have rational but religious arguments for supporting your political views. Religious arguments are based upon the Holy script and the Holy script is a dogma...

"1) Israel's right to exist, and 2) the concept of peaceful co-existence with Israel"
this represents the majority of the palestinians who could agree with this, I however advocate the removal of people in power , by lethal force if necessary, who refuse to accept: 1) palestine's right to exist as an independant country within its internationally recognised borders(gaza WB and Eastern jerusalem) 2)a solution for the refugee-problem




"With all the increase in fertility, profitability, and prosperity that has come to the land since the return of the Jews, I can only assume that it is jealousy and envy that has driven the Palestinian bitterness. If the land were given back, it would be just a few short years and it would once again be the untilled waste land that it once was. History has been known to repeat itself from time to time. It seems to me that the only time there has been a strong agricultural presence in Israel is when the Jews are there. Why seek to run them off?"

this is historical BS.
jealousy and envy are not the words to describe the feelings of the many people who can not return to their property in israel or who lived for decades under foreign occupation....
besides that:

By 1930, all the land capable of being cultivated by the indigenous Palestinians with the resources available to them was already under cultivation (Frances Newton, Fifty Years in Palestine, Coldharbor, 1940, p. 253).

Sir John hope Simpson undertook a comprehensive studying of Palestinian agricultural potential in 1930. He concluded that

"it has emerged quite definitely that there is at the present time and with the present methods of Arab cultivation no margin of land available for agricultural settlements by new immigrants"

(Palestine, Report on immigration, land settlement and development, Sir John Hope Simpson, cmnd 3686, His Majesty's Stationery Office, 1930).

Subcommittee II of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question, established in September 1947 issued a report in November 1947 which stated under item 63:

"The village statistics for 1945 prepared by the Palestine administration and showing the position as at 1 April 1945 furnish interesting data regarding land's ownership in Palestine. The total Arab land ownership is given in dunums (4 dunums equals approximately 1 acre), as being 12,574,774, as against a total Jewish ownership of 1,491,699. [...] The following figures are of particular interest:
CATEGORY OF CROPS OWNERSHIP

Arabs Jews (in dunums)

Citrus 135,368 139,728
Bananas 1,843 1,079
Plantations 1,052,222 94,167
Taxcable cereals (categories 9-13) 5,653,346 869,109
Taxcable cereals (categories 14-15) 823,046 67,839


Item 64 of that same report stated:
"The above statistics of population and of land ownership prove conclusively that the Arabs constitute a majority of the population of the proposed Jewisch State, and own the bulk of the land"

(Source: Doc. C74 UNSCOP Report to the UNGA, Documents on Palestine, vol. 1, pp. 165, PASSIA, December 1997).

In 1615, Englishman George Sandys described Palestine as

"a land that flows with milk and honey,with no part empty of delight or profit"

[quoted in Richard Bevis, "Making the Desert Bloom: An Historical Picture of Pre-Zionist Palestine," The Middle East Newsletter, Vol. 2, Feb.-Mar., 1971, p.4].



In 1859, a British missionary described the southern coast of Palestine as

"a very ocean of wheat,"
observing that
"the fields would do credit to British farming"

[quoted from James Reilly, "The Peasantry of Late Ottoman Palestine," Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 10 No. 4, 1981, p. 84].



Between 1856 and 1882, the German geographer Alexander Scholch found that in those years,

"Palestine produced a relatively large agricultural surplus which was marketed in neighboring countries," and to Europe

[Alexander Scholch, "The Economic Development of Palestine, 1856-1882," Journal of Palestinian Studies, Vol 10, No. 3, 1981, 36-58].



In 1887, Lawrence Oliphant visited the Esdralon Valley that prompted him to marvel at the

"huge green lake of waving wheat, with its village-crowned mounds rising from it like islands; and it presents one of the most striking pictures of luxuriant fertility which it is possible to conceive"

[quoted from Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, ed., The Transformation of Palestine (Chicago, IL: Northwestern Press, 1971), 126].



In 1893, the British Consul advised his government of the value of importing trees from Jaffa to improve production in Australia and South Africa

[Beheiry, p. 67].



In 1939, Palestine exported over 15 million cases of citrus fruit

[A Survey of Palestine, Vol. 1, 337].



In 1942, Palestine produced nearly 305,000 tons of grains and legumes

[A Survey of Palestine, Vol.I, 320].



In 1943, Palestine produced 280,000 tons of fruit, excluding citrus fruits

[Statistical Abstract of Palestine, 1944-45, 226].



In 1945, Palestine had over 600,000 dunums of land planted with olive trees, producing nearly 80,000 tons of olives, and accounting for 1 percent of the olive oil production for the WORLD [Statistical Abstract of Palestine, 1944-45, (Department of Statistics, Government of Palestine), 225], and produced nearly 245,000 tons of vegetables. [A Survey of Palestine, for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Vol.I, 325-26].


In 1946, Walter C. Lowdermilk, Assistant Chief of US Soil Conservation Service, examined Palestine, and compared it to California, except that
"the soils of Palestine were uniformly better"

[Palestine's Economic Future: A Review of Progress and Prospects (London, UK: Percy Lund Humphries and Co., Ltd., 1946), 19-23.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo so actually you support Israel because you believe it is the Holy Jewish land? well, so the parallel with OBL is that you do not have rational but religious arguments for supporting your political views. Religious arguments are based upon the Holy script and the Holy script is a dogma...

Yes, I dogmatically stand by Israel, not on a strict spiritual basis, for I am also a scientist, but also because I have found the biblical record to be the most accurate and lasting written record of the history of the land in question.

Originally posted by takeo "1) Israel's right to exist, and 2) the concept of peaceful co-existence with Israel"
this represents the majority of the palestinians who could agree with this, I however advocate the removal of people in power, by lethal force if necessary, who refuse to accept: 1) palestine's right to exist as an independant country within its internationally recognised borders(gaza WB and Eastern jerusalem) 2)a solution for the refugee-problem

So you support Sharon, I'm glad ot hear that. I find interesting that your diatribes against Sharon fall apart on this point. It is Sharon who has stood against the wishes of the Likud in negotiating for Paletinian Statehood. Would be a shame if you had to change your opinion.

In this section of your statement, let me insert the questions directly. My questions are in RED .

Originally posted by takeo "With all the increase in fertility, profitability, and prosperity that has come to the land ... Why seek to run them off? - JustPat"

this is historical BS.

By 1930, all the land capable of being cultivated by the indigenous Palestinians with the resources available to them was already under cultivation (Frances Newton, Fifty Years in Palestine, Coldharbor, 1940, p. 253).
- Can you compare the percentage of land cultivated in 1930 to the percetage of land cultivated today?
- What percentage of the GNP was due to agriculture in 1930?
- What percentage of the GNP was due to agriculture in 2000? (Remember, only the facts.)

Sir John hope Simpson undertook a comprehensive studying of Palestinian agricultural potential in 1930. He concluded that
"it has emerged quite definitely that there is at the present time and with the present methods of Arab cultivation no margin of land available for agricultural settlements by new immigrants"
(Palestine, Report on immigration, land settlement and development, Sir John Hope Simpson, cmnd 3686, His Majesty's Stationery Office, 1930).
- So, how is it that Israel has not only supported the influx of Jewish immigrants, but has become a leading exporter of produce in teh Mediterranean? Was Simpson wrong, or is it that "the Arab Method of Cultivation" was less productive and inferior?

You go to great lengths to document the agricultural history of Palestine, and I am impressed at the time you put into it, but historically, this is a land that was "flowing with milk and honey" when the Jews first possessed it under Joshua's leadership. My question is how does the relative productivity compare? If, as Simpson stated, the land was maxed out in 1930, then there would be no evidence of increased production. Percentages would remain constant. Has that been the case?

Address, if you will, projects like the Hulah Valley Project, the formation of 368 agrcultural settlements in Israel's first ten years of return to the land, and Israel's approach to reclamation of the land for agricultural use. Later we can talk about industrial advances.