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Thread: Arab Guide to the 2004 US Election

  1. #16
    MichaelC
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by philingraham
    As a Vietnam Vet I can relate to the fact that he VOLUNTEERED, served, came back and told the current Rumfelds that the war was fu*ked.
    As another Viet Nam vet who volunteered, served and came back, I have the point of view that his actions at the time were self serving and demeaning to the honorable soldiers who did so much more for their country than he has ever done. The mere fact of service does not make a person's public utterances beyond reproach and should not be used as an argument to quiet those who might hesitate to criticize a "vet".

  2. #17
    philingraham
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC
    As another Viet Nam vet who volunteered, served and came back, I have the point of view that his actions at the time were self serving and demeaning to the honorable soldiers who did so much more for their country than he has ever done. The mere fact of service does not make a person's public utterances beyond reproach and should not be used as an argument to quiet those who might hesitate to criticize a "vet".
    As near as I can tell, there is no hesitation on the part of The Forum to critcize a "vet". I don't defend Kerry in all of his past actions. You are right up to a point. I was responding to Alfred, however. His cavalier way of rejecting Kerry out of hand lead me to respond in kind...

  3. #18
    MichaelC
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by philingraham
    As near as I can tell, there is no hesitation on the part of The Forum to critcize a "vet". I don't defend Kerry in all of his past actions. You are right up to a point. I was responding to Alfred, however. His cavalier way of rejecting Kerry out of hand lead me to respond in kind...
    Wasn't out to offend you, just to put things in perspective a little. Kerry's "vet-ness" and "medals" are rightly controversial. Not to mention the fact that once he claimed the status of war criminal and expressed shame at the behavior of all soldiers in the war and now, because it serves his ambition, he portrays himself as a heroic defender of our country, who was an honorable person when in Nam. Too big of stretch for me to meld these two self-serving views and come out with an honest man.

    My comment concerning the criticism of vets was meant to indicate that the mere fact of someone being a vet does not make them infallible nor does it place them above criticism. Kerry is thumping his chest about his "heroics" in Nam and I do think he believes himself beyond criticism, but he opened himself to it by his public behavior when he returned to the U.S. and vilified his country. He cannot now argue for a free pass on that.

  4. #19
    philingraham
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC
    Wasn't out to offend you, just to put things in perspective a little. Kerry's "vet-ness" and "medals" are rightly controversial. Not to mention the fact that once he claimed the status of war criminal and expressed shame at the behavior of all soldiers in the war and now, because it serves his ambition, he portrays himself as a heroic defender of our country, who was an honorable person when in Nam. Too big of stretch for me to meld these two self-serving views and come out with an honest man.

    My comment concerning the criticism of vets was meant to indicate that the mere fact of someone being a vet does not make them infallible nor does it place them above criticism. Kerry is thumping his chest about his "heroics" in Nam and I do think he believes himself beyond criticism, but he opened himself to it by his public behavior when he returned to the U.S. and vilified his country. He cannot now argue for a free pass on that.

    I agree, no free passes. But the Kerry performance, way back then, STILL compares favorably to Bush's non-performance, way back then. You and I both know that entry into the National Guard was a FREE PASS from Vietnam. If there is anything to glean from this conversation it has to do with the choices we made in the present. Remember that both Bush and Kerry were members of the a very pricey league. You and me were guys just trying to get by. At least Kerry made an attempt to do the right thing. What did Bush do ?

  5. #20
    MichaelC
    Guest
    Originally posted by philingraham

    I agree, no free passes. But the Kerry performance, way back then, STILL compares favorably to Bush's non-performance, way back then. You and I both know that entry into the National Guard was a FREE PASS from Vietnam. If there is anything to glean from this conversation it has to do with the choices we made in the present.
    I do not see service in the National Guard as dishonorable. There were National Guard in Nam as far as I know. There are many National Guard in Iraq right now. The attempt to paint someone as dishonorable by referencing the National Guard is an unfair smear against the Guard.

    I do not see Kerry's Viet Nam era service as honorable. He himself allowed as much.

    I think Kerry's past is totally relevant in view of the wild and wierd claims and accusations that he made after returning from Nam and the totally different tale that he now tells. I think it is deceitful of him to hide from questions about that time and pretend that he never did what he did and said what he said.

    It's late...I'm a little tired, so I don't want to search the web right now to find the name of the book that he wrote back then. But, I understand that he will not allow another printing of it in the present because he does not want to deal with the can of worms that it will open. Of course, the book is still laying around here and there.

    If he had the balls to allow its reissue, it would be an instant best seller but not for the reasons that he would want a book to sell well. The refusal to reissue the book keeps it out of the hands of many who might otherwise be able to take a closer look at the guy.


    At least Kerry made an attempt to do the right thing.
    I have no idea what this means.

  6. #21
    Elisheba
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by philingraham
    The current situation bears a relationship to Vietnam only in the sense that it is about Nationalism. Any occupying army could expect the same thing we are experiencing now. The Baathist, the Shias, the Kurds will sooner or later determine what the future face of Iraq will be. They will track down and kill al queda once we get the hell out of there.

    In the meantime they have justified suspicions about our real motivations and will try to act together. If our intent is to create a democracy, regardless of how absurd that may be, that is one thing. However, if our intent is to secure "The American Way of Life", for a few more years then we can expect more of the same...
    My MAIN problem with your post is this excerpt, "They will track down and kill al queda once we get the hell out of there." I don't believe that for a second, however, I DO believe that 'al queda' must be stopped. Any person of good will has just got to be against that organization, however, it knows no boundaries ... encouraging it to flourish in Iraq will IMHO hasten more 9/11's ... and not only in the USA.

  7. #22
    Alfred
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by philingraham
    I agree, no free passes. But the Kerry performance, way back then, STILL compares favorably to Bush's non-performance, way back then. You and I both know that entry into the National Guard was a FREE PASS from Vietnam. If there is anything to glean from this conversation it has to do with the choices we made in the present. Remember that both Bush and Kerry were members of the a very pricey league. You and me were guys just trying to get by. At least Kerry made an attempt to do the right thing. What did Bush do ?

    All of us that served in the military have seen the type that Kerry may have been. It reminds me of the movie "The Iron Cross" where the German officer was hell-bent on getting his Iron Cross...regardless of who died or what rules he needed to bend.

    I don't want to put words in your mouth....but just in case Kerry is a hero to you for serving in Nam; see below. If half of this is true, then I suggest that Kerry is just the kind of guy to send people like you and me on a cluster-fxxx to promote his own self-glory. Just the kind of brown-nosers we hated while in the military.

    Gee MichaelC, I didn't know you served in Viet Nam. Now I am going to have to take back all the nasty things I have said in the past But as Kerry so often says....that was in the past, let's talk about tomorrow. While I did live in Viet Nam circa 63-65, I did not fight there.

    XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX TUE AUG 03, 2004 21:35:02 ET XXXXX

    BOOK CLAIMS KERRY WAR 'FABRICATIONS'

    **Exclusive**

    A veterans group seeking to deeply discredit Democrat John Kerry's military service will charge in the new bombshell book UNFIT FOR COMMAND:


    Two of John Kerry's three Purple Heart decorations resulted from self-inflicted wounds, not suffered under enemy fire.


    All three of Kerry's Purple Hearts were for minor injuries, not requiring a single hour of hospitalization.


    A "fanny wound" was the highlight of Kerry's much touted "no man left behind" Bronze Star.


    Kerry turned the tragic death of a father and small child in a Vietnamese fishing boat into an act of "heroism" by filing a false report on the incident.


    Kerry entered an abandoned Vietnamese village and slaughtered the domestic animals owned by the civilians and burned down their homes with his Zippo lighter.


    Kerry's reckless behavior convinced his colleagues that he had to go -- becoming the only Swift Boat veteran to serve only four months.

  8. #23
    philingraham
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Alfred
    All of us that served in the military have seen the type that Kerry may have been. It reminds me of the movie "The Iron Cross" where the German officer was hell-bent on getting his Iron Cross...regardless of who died or what rules he needed to bend.

    I don't want to put words in your mouth....but just in case Kerry is a hero to you for serving in Nam; see below. If half of this is true, then I suggest that Kerry is just the kind of guy to send people like you and me on a cluster-fxxx to promote his own self-glory. Just the kind of brown-nosers we hated while in the military.

    Gee MichaelC, I didn't know you served in Viet Nam. Now I am going to have to take back all the nasty things I have said in the past But as Kerry so often says....that was in the past, let's talk about tomorrow. While I did live in Viet Nam circa 63-65, I did not fight there.

    XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX TUE AUG 03, 2004 21:35:02 ET XXXXX

    BOOK CLAIMS KERRY WAR 'FABRICATIONS'

    **Exclusive**

    A veterans group seeking to deeply discredit Democrat John Kerry's military service will charge in the new bombshell book UNFIT FOR COMMAND:


    Two of John Kerry's three Purple Heart decorations resulted from self-inflicted wounds, not suffered under enemy fire.


    All three of Kerry's Purple Hearts were for minor injuries, not requiring a single hour of hospitalization.


    A "fanny wound" was the highlight of Kerry's much touted "no man left behind" Bronze Star.


    Kerry turned the tragic death of a father and small child in a Vietnamese fishing boat into an act of "heroism" by filing a false report on the incident.


    Kerry entered an abandoned Vietnamese village and slaughtered the domestic animals owned by the civilians and burned down their homes with his Zippo lighter.


    Kerry's reckless behavior convinced his colleagues that he had to go -- becoming the only Swift Boat veteran to serve only four months.
    I will read the book,"Unfit..." on your say so. Also, I have read numerous articles about this but am unsure what or who to believe. Are we to assume that all the guys on the stage when Kerry gave his speech are lying thru their teeth ? If what the tabloids are saying is even remotely true, I can't imagine what those very ordinary Americans on the stage have to gain by perpetuating a lie. Is it a conspiracy ? I don't know, Alfred. Maybe you're right or maybe not.

    On the other hand there are also mumerous stories I have read on the Net suggesting that W skipped out on the last part of his duty in The Nat'l Guard.
    There are also stories about W being into cocaine back when he was "young and irresponsible". Is it true ? I don't know.

    What I do know about W is that he got a highly coveted slot in the Texas Air Nat'l Guard back when tens of thousands were trying to do anything even remotely legal to get out of going to Vietnam. By the way, I am not slurring the reps of anyone in the Guard or Reserves. What they do is real and honorable. It's ironic to note, however,that now,some 40 years later, the Guard is taking the brunt of Bush's folly.

    Have you noticed that virtually the entire Republican Establishment, with the exception of Colin Powell, managed to have "other priorities" when the call went out to serve their country ? These guys are long on giving orders and short on blood and guts.

    I can't imagine a similar situation existing in Israel. All of the politicians and their offspring serve as a matter of course. In the US Congress it turns out that there is only one son that is serving in Iraq. One...Maybe we should promote the a Constitutional Amendment that any son or daughter of all members of the Congress and Senate will automatically be "drafted" into the US Military. If nothing else, it would at least keep these people in the real world...

  9. #24
    Elisheba
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by philingraham
    I can't imagine a similar situation existing in Israel. All of the politicians and their offspring serve as a matter of course. In the US Congress it turns out that there is only one son that is serving in Iraq. One...Maybe we should promote the a Constitutional Amendment that any son or daughter of all members of the Congress and Senate will automatically be "drafted" into the US Military. If nothing else, it would at least keep these people in the real world...

    There has been a lot of TALK about a new draft which would include everyone. If one isn't 'fit to serve' in combat, there would still be mandatory service without exception.

    I realize this is not likely to happen, but it seems only right & fair and I do wish we would elect a president with the cajones to put a national service into place in the USA now.

    Rehashing Vietnam, IMHO, is just not getting us anywhere. Yes, BushCo appears to be filled with those who send others to die and, yes, Kerry went to Vietnam. However, there are vets who support Kerry and vets who DESPISE him.

    Why can't we let the Vietnam nightmare go for the purposes of this election and just vote for who we believe will serve the best interests of the USA?

  10. #25
    Elisheba
    Guest
    I just went back and re-read the article with which I started this thread.

    Doesn't it mean anything to people that the terrorists want Kerry to be our next president? Doesn't that tell you something?

  11. #26
    philingraham
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Elisheba
    There has been a lot of TALK about a new draft which would include everyone. If one isn't 'fit to serve' in combat, there would still be mandatory service without exception.

    I realize this is not likely to happen, but it seems only right & fair and I do wish we would elect a president with the cajones to put a national service into place in the USA now.

    Rehashing Vietnam, IMHO, is just not getting us anywhere. Yes, BushCo appears to be filled with those who send others to die and, yes, Kerry went to Vietnam. However, there are vets who support Kerry and vets who DESPISE him.

    Why can't we let the Vietnam nightmare go for the purposes of this election and just vote for who we believe will serve the best interests of the USA?
    Believe me, Elisheba, I would love to drop Vietnam. It's an old story that gets older by the minute. But we're stuck with creating a framework in order to understand our current predicament. And the recent past offers some lessons. It's not unlike asking the previous generation to drop WWII. I am 57 years old and I'm stuck with my experience.

    I'll tell you what. If you drop your experience, I will drop mine... Absurd ? Probably. But I sympathize with your feelings about this. So I'll make an honest effort to remain in the present.

  12. #27
    Elisheba
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by philingraham
    I'll tell you what. If you drop your experience, I will drop mine... Absurd ? Probably. But I sympathize with your feelings about this. So I'll make an honest effort to remain in the present.
    My bad: I didn't make myself clear.

    My wishes are to drop the Vietnam horror ONLY for the purposes of the November election and that is only because it seems so many from 'each side' are for each candidate.

    I don't want you to drop your experiences; they are a part of you. Your post actually brought tears to my eyes. I can't even imagine what it must have been like to have served in Vietnam and my posts were NEVER meant to try to take any of your feelings away from you.

  13. #28
    MichaelC
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Elisheba
    My bad: I didn't make myself clear.

    My wishes are to drop the Vietnam horror ONLY for the purposes of the November election and that is only because it seems so many from 'each side' are for each candidate.

    I don't want you to drop your experiences; they are a part of you. Your post actually brought tears to my eyes. I can't even imagine what it must have been like to have served in Vietnam and my posts were NEVER meant to try to take any of your feelings away from you.
    I know this isn't the particular reason that you opened this thread, but any guide to the U.S. Election is necessarily going to involve some of the nitty gritty of the process. Viet Nam is relevant to this election because of the original behavior of the democratic candidate upon his return from that theater of war. Even then it might not have been an issue except for the fact that he has wrapped himself in the flag and and let on that he is a great war hero who has it over Bush in this regard. He has made it an issue and it will (and must) continue to be examined. I'm sorry if this brings up things that are not especially relevant to you but that's the way these things work I'm afraid.

  14. #29
    Alfred
    Guest
    All of you need to see this! It just came out from a bunch of guys who served with Kerry.

    http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesui...video_wmv.html


    VietNam is relevent because Kerry is basically saying he is fit to lead this country because of his war record. If his war record is a sham then that is important to know. It is an important view into his "character." That's all he talked about during the convention.

    I would be willing to bet you that Kerry would have joined the Guard in 1968 if he could have. But he joined in 1965 after he found out he would be drafted (CNN report several nights ago). A big difference, as the war was treated much differently in 65 than in 68.

    As far as skipping out on duty? If you are a weekend warrior and you miss a drill once and awhile, big deal. They probably sat around and played checkers most of the time anyway. I bet you he flew when he could as most pilots hate the military silliness and just love to fly. It is not like he was dodging combat duty or putting his crew in danger.

    Elisheba:

    The only ones pushing a draft are on the Left. It was the draft that caused the massive protests and riots in the 60's. That is what the Left is trying to bring back. Not saying that the war would not have brought on protests at some point...

    Philingraham:

    I would be willing to bet that if you took the top 50 democrats and the top 50 republicans in government, you would come out with a higher percentage of Vets with the republicans. Most of the democratics in Congress also had "other priorities." However, Politicians as a whole are devious and self-serving (in both parties), so the precentage of Vets is probably not very high in either case.

    Remember Clinton? I don't think there was a Vet in his entire cabinet. And we both know how he "loathed" the military.

    But this is all academic anyway.

    If it is true that Kerry was a self-serving fraud in Viet Nam, then he is toast for all but the most lefty Blue States.

  15. #30
    Elisheba
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC
    I know this isn't the particular reason that you opened this thread, but any guide to the U.S. Election is necessarily going to involve some of the nitty gritty of the process...I'm sorry if this brings up things that are not especially relevant to you but that's the way these things work I'm afraid.
    1. You know? Really?

    2. Vietnam is in fact more relevant to me than you obviously "know"!



    As I posted before, Kerry was in Vietnam about 4 months and threw other vets' medals and ribbons away. However, the democrats attack Bush, Cheney and others for either never having served or taking 'odd' leaves (AWOL?). That is why I wanted Vietnam removed; not because of your ASSumptions ... which are WRONG and offensive to me.

    There is plenty to discuss and decide concerning who should be elected without getting into the whole 'Kerry did this' and 'Bush did that' back-and-forth. However, I am aware that is only my opinion and so, obviously, if all of you wish to base your voting on Vietnam: fine, go ahead!
    Last edited by Elisheba; 08-04-2004 at 04:38 PM. Reason: incorrect pronoun was used

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