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Thread: Where Do France's Jews Belong?

  1. #1
    Fredo
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    Where Do France's Jews Belong?

    well , hope it hasn't been posted before

    here is an interesting article :

    Original article

    Where Do France's Jews Belong?

    Behind a spat with Chirac lies Ariel Sharon's troubled search for 1 million new Jewish immigrants


    Ariel Sharon's belief that the Jews of France belong in Israel and ought to get there as soon as possible lest they fall victim to anti-Semitism gone wild has opened a major diplomatic row between France and Israel. But it's also a signal of deeper tensions on the question whether it is the "manifest destiny" of the almost two-thirds of the world's Jewish population who live outside of Israel to emigrate to that country to help maintain a Jewish majority.

    The furor began when, in a speech to U.S. Jewish leaders, Sharon said that while he wanted all the world's Jews to move to Israel, in the case of France where they face "the wildest anti-Semitism" such a move was urgent and essential. France is home to Western Europe's largest Jewish community, numbering some 600,000. The condemnation of Sharon was swift and shrill, not only from the French government, but also from leaders of France's Jewish community who accused Sharon of pouring gasoline on the fire.

    Still, despite Sharon's claim that "wild" anti-Semitism leaves French Jews no option but to flee to Israel, the Anti-Defamation League's own study of European anti-Semitism released in April suggests that there has actually been a 10 percent decline in anti-Semitic attitudes in France over the past two years. (Sharon himself commended the French government for taking steps to fight it.) To be sure, anti-Semitic attacks have become a worrying reality for many Jews in France, and a tiny, but growing minority have taken Sharon's advice. Still, the reason French Jewish leaders have been particularly dismayed by Sharon's comments is not hard to see: One of the questions asked in the ADL survey as a measure of anti-Semitic attitudes was whether the survey's respondents agreed with the statement "Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country." Sharon left no doubt about his belief that they ought to be.

    Seeking to explain Sharon's remarks, Israel's eloquent New York consul Alon Pinkas offered the following on CNN: "Israeli prime ministers, by definition, by their mission statement, and if you will, to borrow a term from your political culture, by their manifest destiny, are expected and required to ask Jews to come and live in Israel." The "manifest destiny" theme was reiterated by a number of current and former Israeli officials. Former Interior Minister Avraham Poraz, for example: "As you know Israel is a Zionist state. We always advocate that all Jews should return to Israel. This is not a new opinion."

    But a belief in "manifest destiny" even over the preferences of Jews who choose to live elsewhere is driven not so much by pure ideology as it is by the demographic concerns of the Israeli leadership. Based on the territory currently under its control, Arabs will eclipse Jews as the majority inside Israel in the next ten to twenty years. Demographic concerns have prompted Ariel Sharon, since he first took office, to repeatedly stress his desire to bring 1 million Jews to Israel in the next ten years. But these days, of course, they're proving difficult to find.

    According to Israeli figures, some 46 percent of the world's Jewish population live in North America, compared with 37 percent in Israel and 12 percent in Europe. Given the fact that North American Jews are, in the main, unlikely to emigrate any time soon, that leaves Sharon to seek his new immigrants mostly in Europe, the former Soviet territories and among the 350,000 Jews of Latin America and the 80,000 in South Africa.

    The basic argument — as I learned it in the Zionist youth movement in South Africa — has been that Jewish life in the Diaspora is inherently unsafe, unfulfilling, and transient. Sooner or later, all Jews will realize that their destiny lies in Israel. But the demographic trends are showing the opposite: A majority of Jews when given the choice, have chosen to remain in the Diaspora. Not only that; a growing number of Israeli Jews appear to be choosing to join them. Late last year, the Israeli government revealed that some 760,000 Israeli Jews are currently living abroad, a number that has increased by 40 percent since the onset of the current Palestinian uprising in 2000. Last year's total Jewish immigration into Israel, numbering some 23,000, was a 15-year low. And even as Sharon insists that the safety of French Jews depends on immigrating to Israel forthwith, Israelis are flocking to European embassies to apply for EU passports. Indeed, concern for their personal security may be prompting more Jews to leave Israel than to settle there.

    Germany, rather than Israel, is the preferred destination of Jews leaving the former Soviet territories today — a fact that has Zionist officials so steamed that they're calling on the Israeli government to pressure Germany to stop "enticing" Jews to settle there. The very fact that Jews leaving the former Soviet territories are being given a choice to go anywhere other than Israel appears to be unacceptable, since in the words of Jewish Agency chairman Sallai Merridor "this drastically effects immigration to Israel." Merridor appears oblivious to the irony in attacking Germany for making it easier for Jews to live there.

    As a Jew who actually likes living in the Diaspora and sees no reason for immigrating to Israel, I'm made uncomfortable by comments such as Merridor's and Sharon's. My Uncle Adam and his family live in Paris, and have no desire or intention to leave. My cousin Cathy and her children live in Israel, and they, too, have no intention of leaving. I have family in South Africa, the U.S., Canada, Australia, Mexico, Poland and Scotland, all of whom have declined the option of living in Israel. Those who tell Jews like Cathy they don't belong in Israel are quickly seen as anti-Semitic. But I apply the same label to anyone who tells Uncle Adam that as a Jew he doesn't belong in France, or says the same thing to any of my relatives elsewhere in the Diaspora. "Go back to Israel" was a message I heard occasionally growing up, both from Zionist emissaries promoting immigration and from rightwing anti-Semites hostile to my anti-apartheid views, which they somehow mistook to be uniquely Jewish. Unlike Sharon, I can't accept that fighting anti-Semitism in France is futile, because I believe that a Jew's place is anywhere he or she chooses to live.


    It reflects one opinion , what is yours ?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Compared to any other country with more than 17 Jews living in it antisemitism is higher in France than perhaps any other country except the Ukraine or Greece where it is largely institutionalized and outright antisemitic political parties are now getting noticeable minorities in their respective parliaments. None the less the population socially, politically at risk in France is numerically larger than any other. The French like to carp and scream that it's all in our heads but I'd remind them that the last time there was even a desecration in the US was maybe 15 years ago. They can say that such and such events in France are not substantial or important but they have to set the bar pretty low, to Arab or Ukrainian standards to say that.

  3. #3
    Olivier
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredo
    I can't accept that fighting anti-Semitism in France is futile, because I believe that a Jew's place is anywhere he or she chooses to live.
    I completely agree with this.

    My experience here is that the people controlling this forum (US right wing jews, and I mean *right wing*) want antisemitism to rise.. or rather they don't mind this ... so they act accordingly: supporting the invasion of iraq, supporting actions that pour oil over the fire of the israeli/palestine conflict by developping settlment, promoting hatred of france ...

    (maybe people like sharonbn/eyl/mercury can rectify this) to them the rise of antisemitism is so inevitable the only thing to do is for all jews outside israel/US to flee to israel... and this has many positive effects to them. Jews will emigrate to israel reinforce the jewish majority of a country that is in danger of having an arab majority in the close future (hence the eurabia urban legend: in fact the danger is israelabia), push new population into settlements, and globally strenghten israel.
    The fact of jews does not matter to them: will they be poorer in israel? Yes. Will they be threatened of death in israel? Yes.

    The irony, especially with US right-wing jews, is that they are not foolish enough to emigrate themselves but they need others to do it for them...



    as for your question :
    ===============

    For me I think jews are at home everywhere in the world and that's the meaning of diaspora. Jews who want to make allyah must do it of course, but not out of fear.

    Jews must fight antisemitism , everywhere it is possible. Not only in europe, but even in some arab countries (like tunisia) I think the jews who stayed there made the right choice. Fighting antisemitism in france would be won already without Bush and sharon (and many before them) fueling it.

    I think the call of sharon for jews to flee france's is in a strategy
    - to break the french jewish community, because french jews are not pro-sharon
    - prevent europe from exterting an influence against new settlements, which remains the main objectives (much before "fighting terrorism" ... as long as terrorism gives israel a pretense to expel palestinians, it will remain useful too to the right-wing which will continue fueling it).
    - to sharon, french jews are pawns in the game he plays.


    NB : US and israeli posters are awfully ignorant of the reality of europe, they really don't give a damm of what we say, btw...

    Where is home? A clash of civilizations over French Jews

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Posted by Fredo:


    Behind a spat with Chirac lies Ariel Sharon's troubled search for 1 million new Jewish immigrants


    This is complete conspiratorial BULL********* If Israel would be so concerned about Arab majority it would have made leaving Israel much tougher and according to the same article around 1 million Israelis live outside of Israel (1/6th of the Jewish population of Israel!!!!!!).

    Myself being a Jewish immigrant from the former Soviet Union to the United States the main reason why Israel was not the destination of my family is simple - ECONOMICS. Actually the article is wrong as to the main preferred refuge destination of former Soviet Jews now-a-days - it's not Germany or France but rather United States (as choice #1), however, given that it is next to imposible to legally get into the US these days they go to Germany. The same Germany that is giving huge economic incentives to former Soviet Jews and Jews in particular to live in Germany (you know the Holocaust burden and such...) . I heard stories that most of those Jewish immigrants to Germany are a very lazy bunch who abuse the German social system to the fullest and feel very good about it.

    As far as blaming French anti-semitism on Sharon and Sharon alone is a baloney. If there would be no anti-semitism and the French Jews would not feel it - nobody would talk about it. The problem is there and everyone in your country (including you leadership which openly acknowledges the issue) knows its there and blaming it on some foreign leader is simply stupid.

    As far as Sharon calling Jews to live in Israel, what's so terrible about that? I really don't understand?

    I can tell you this. Most of the Jews who live in France have immigrated to France in the past 30 - 40 years (most of the pre-war population, whichever survived from the Germans is small), most of those people (like local Takeo who feels very Russian), are very used to lets "move" immigrant-type mentality and believe me if sh*** is going to hit the fan (like some synagogue explode) you'll see a very massive immigration. Especially painful will be the immigration of professionals who in their mass would move out to Quebeq, United States or Australia.
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Posted by Olivier:


    (maybe people like sharonbn/eyl/mercury can rectify this) to them the rise of antisemitism is so inevitable the only thing to do is for all jews outside israel/US to flee to israel... and this has many positive effects to them. Jews will emigrate to israel reinforce the jewish majority of a country that is in danger of having an arab majority in the close future (hence the eurabia urban legend: in fact the danger is israelabia), push new population into settlements, and globally strenghten israel.
    The fact of jews does not matter to them: will they be poorer in israel? Yes. Will they be threatened of death in israel? Yes.



    IT"S A ZIONIST CONSPIRACY EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!! YOU GOT IT THIS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!


    For me I think jews are at home everywhere in the world and that's the meaning of diaspora. Jews who want to make allyah must do it of course, but not out of fear.

    Do you know why Israel was created in the first place?


    Jews must fight antisemitism , everywhere it is possible. Not only in europe, but even in some arab countries (like tunisia) I think the jews who stayed there made the right choice. Fighting antisemitism in france would be won already without Bush and sharon (and many before them) fueling it.


    So it's American and Israeli fault for anti-semitism!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!! YOU GOT IT!!!!!!!!!

    Why should the Jews fight anti-semitism in Europe? I thought you education system should be doing it? Or may be your government? Or may be you, as a European (with the burden of the Holocaust, the Dreyfus, and the pogroms), should already take tolerance for granted and attack anyone who attacks the JEWS (the JEWS!!!!!) a given. Any demonstrations against anti-semitism, intolerance, and xenophobia planned any time time soon? Any you are personally planning to organize?


    I think the call of sharon for jews to flee france's is in a strategy
    - to break the french jewish community, because french jews are not pro-sharon


    I think it's for French Jews to decide what they want to do.


    - prevent europe from exterting an influence against new settlements, which remains the main objectives (much before "fighting terrorism" ... as long as terrorism gives israel a pretense to expel palestinians, it will remain useful too to the right-wing which will continue fueling it).

    Sure it's a conspiracy!!! Europe is nothing in the Middle East or internationally that's the main reason why they, you, cannot effect the events but only to comment on these on the side. It has been so for the past 60 years, since you had an internal bloodbath, and will remain as such for another 100.


    - to sharon, french jews are pawns in the game he plays.


    That's the main reason that you are not organizing any demonstrations?



    NB : US and israeli posters are awfully ignorant of the reality of europe, they really don't give a damm of what we say, btw


    Europe killed half of my family - I think you owe me personally. Why are we hearing anything relating to anti-semitism anyways from such a morally advanced continent?
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  6. #6
    drexpert
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates
    Compared to any other country with more than 17 Jews living in it antisemitism is higher in France than perhaps any other country except the Ukraine or Greece where it is largely institutionalized...

    You forgot about Canada. They are welcoming Muslims with open arms and Antisemtic acts, including acts of violence are up over 2000%!


    Jeffrey

  7. #7
    Toga
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    The Euro soil is drenched with Jewish blood

    Most Jews from the former USSR who move to Germany are not halachically Jewish. Having a non-Jewish mother does not make one Jewish. By the way, do the German authorities verify the "Jewishness" of those who claim they are Jewish? Did Jews marry the non-Jews in the USSR 30 years ago? Has it been the norm among the Jews in the USSR to marry the non-Jews? I talked to many Jews from that part of the world and they told me that despite the forced assimilation most Jews in Eastern Europe/USSR did not intermarry.

  8. #8
    Semsem
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    >>My experience here is that the people controlling this forum (US right wing jews, and I mean *right wing*) want antisemitism to rise.. or rather they don't mind this ... so they act accordingly: supporting >>

    Oh yes Olivier we Jews really want antisemitism to rise. That antisemitic comment proves you are a "fool."

  9. #9
    Semsem
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    What right does a South African Jew have to write about what French Jews really feel. This guy knows nothing. I read this article a while ago and I was disgusted by it.

  10. #10
    Ahava
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier
    I completely agree with this.

    My experience here is that the people controlling this forum (US right wing jews, and I mean *right wing*) want antisemitism to rise.. or rather they don't mind this ... so they act accordingly: supporting the invasion of iraq, supporting actions that pour oil over the fire of the israeli/palestine conflict by developping settlment, promoting hatred of france ...
    The second part of this statement smells of antisemitism: they "act accordingly" by for example supporting the Iraq invasion?? So what you're saying is that this is something that increases antisemitism? And why would that be? What you're saying is that the JEWS are to blame for antisemitism, and this is such a classical form of antisemitism, it makes me sick to my stomach and furious as hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier
    For me I think jews are at home everywhere in the world and that's the meaning of diaspora.
    No, Jews SHOULD be at home everywhere in the world, but this is not the case. And Israel remains the real home of the Jews, but this doesn't mean all Jews should live there.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semsem
    What right does a South African Jew have to write about what French Jews really feel. This guy knows nothing. I read this article a while ago and I was disgusted by it.

    There are some similarities. The Jewish community in ZA is VERY comfortable and VERY assimilated. Very unlikely to make aliyah because things are pretty good for them there. Even with generalized violence in J'Burg the Jewish community there figures they are there for the long haul.

  12. #12
    Olivier
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mil
    Posted by Olivier:
    IT"S A ZIONIST CONSPIRACY EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!
    it's public so it's not a conspiracy.
    I'm not sure it's real "zionist" either. there are other ways to be zionist than this.



    So it's American and Israeli fault for anti-semitism
    Bush and Sharon.

    Yes.

    As far as I can figure, no contemporary leaders induced more antisemitism than they did. They should be in the book of records.



    Why should the Jews fight anti-semitism in Europe? I thought you education system should be doing it? Or may be your government? Or may be you, as a European (with the burden of the Holocaust, the Dreyfus, and the pogroms), should already take tolerance for granted and attack anyone who attacks the JEWS (the JEWS!!!!!) a given. Any demonstrations against anti-semitism, intolerance, and xenophobia planned any time time soon? Any you are personally planning to organize?
    That's your opinion
    And more generally this opinion, I am referring to in my post.

    Sorry to say that, but to me what is displayed here is a mix of two things : ignorance and scorn. Apart from a magic wand solution like "let's invade Iraq" you won't consider anything....
    Note I have started of thread with a translation of a Le Monde article explaining the answers we give to the questions.


    I think the call of sharon for jews to flee france's is in a strategy
    - to break the french jewish community, because french jews are not pro-sharon

    I think it's for French Jews to decide what they want to do.
    sure, but ..... if so please don't put them in a situation where you reduce their choices and undermine ther actions.


    Europe is nothing in the Middle East or internationally that's the main reason why they, you, cannot effect the events but only to comment on these on the side.
    This is your desire and we do our best to prevent you from winning.

    until now you win: more settlements, more terrorism, more antisemitism





    Europe killed half of my family
    The european union today was successfully built on the ashes of WWII to establish a new ideal. Many jews were prominent figures of still ongoing process.

    They were successful and europe today is conducting a huge effort to stabilize the post WWII situations that were frozen by the iron curtain.
    Sorry but I think it pisses you off somewhat to have europe be too pacifist.

  13. #13
    Olivier
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahava
    they "act accordingly" by for example supporting the Iraq invasion?? So what you're saying is that this is something that increases antisemitism?
    I have posted scientifical references to this. Please look at the zogby study thread (or pew center research).





    And why would that be? What you're saying is that the JEWS are to blame for antisemitism, and this is such a classical form of antisemitism, it makes me sick to my stomach and furious as hell.
    A lot of posters here are jews, but while they are clearly the causing factor of the situation (they support bush and sharon's policies) I certainly do not think they represent *all jews*. From my standpoint I would label them right-wing or extreme right-wing.

    I do not think you can represent JEWS as some kind of monolithical block.

    And I would like other opinions to be represented... and not be insulted when they speak here, for example.



    No, Jews SHOULD be at home everywhere in the world, but this is not the case. And Israel remains the real home of the Jews, but this doesn't mean all Jews should live there.
    I agree

  14. #14
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Posted by Olivier:

    it's public so it's not a conspiracy.
    I'm not sure it's real "zionist" either. there are other ways to be zionist than this.



    What are you talking about? You are trying to prove to me that current anti-semitism is caused by the Zionists; this is the most weird statement I heard so far which calls for a conspiracy.


    Bush and Sharon.

    Yes.



    So it's not the descendents of the North African refugees anymore but Bush and Sharon!!!! I feel you are changing your tactics. I bet it's Massad and the CIA who are harassing Jews on the streets of Paris and are burning synagogues.


    As far as I can figure, no contemporary leaders induced more antisemitism than they did. They should be in the book of records.

    Really? I'll tell you a secret, as a Jew, anti-semitism is not induced by anybody it's a personal thing. You just don't burn synagogues because you disagree with the war in Iraq... Right?



    That's your opinion
    And more generally this opinion, I am referring to in my post.


    No. It's a solution.


    Sorry to say that, but to me what is displayed here is a mix of two things : ignorance and scorn. Apart from a magic wand solution like "let's invade Iraq" you won't consider anything....

    Who cares about IRAQ!!!! What does growing anti-semitism in Europe have to do with IRAQ?????????????

    sure, but ..... if so please don't put them in a situation where you reduce their choices and undermine ther actions.

    I thought France is a free country? Nobody puts anybody in any situation and every French Jew can decide for himself to make alyah, or immigrate in general, or not.


    This is your desire and we do our best to prevent you from winning.

    My desire?????????? It's a reality!!!!!!!!! I know my history.... do you know your history?

    until now you win: more settlements, more terrorism, more antisemitism

    So you are accusing me, a Jew, of terrorism and anti-semitism and equating me with policies of Israeli government? You know, in history of your continent, Jews have ALWAYS being blamed for anti-semitism... imagine that, your thoughts are those in line with Mr. Shekelgruber. Jews were always too "rich", Jews were always to "influential", Jews were always too "communist", Jews were always too "different"..... In all seriousness open up Mein Kempf, if you don't believe me; you will find words which exactly correlate to your statement - Jews created anti-semitism.

    The european union today was successfully built on the ashes of WWII to establish a new ideal. Many jews were prominent figures of still ongoing process.

    You are not doing European Jews any favors; all they accomplished they accomplished by themselves.


    They were successful and europe today is conducting a huge effort to stabilize the post WWII situations that were frozen by the iron curtain.

    So why is there growing anti-semitism in Europe then? I still don't understand...


    Sorry but I think it pisses you off somewhat to have europe be too pacifist.


    On the contrary, believe it or not, I want Europe to be more commitful!!!!!! I don't want to see my country getting involved with every little conflict in the world today (and get blamed for individual mistakes), including those in Europe. Europe should become strong and powerful entity, like America, and start committing. The reality of today is that Europe is politically powerless and as long as it remains powerless (powerless and divided) Europe will remain commitless.

    Recently the government of Latvia, recently added EU state, has allowed local surviving WAFFEN SS-"VETERANS" to march through the streets of its capital in some commemorating ceremony. Did France say anything on the matter? Or did France say anything to the fact of inhuman treatment of Russian-speaking Latvians who make up over 45% of the country population and are treated like second class dhimis with many without an ability to get citizenship? Why was fascist Latvia allowed into EU?
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  15. #15
    Ahava
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier
    A lot of posters here are jews, but while they are clearly the causing factor of the situation (they support bush and sharon's policies)
    SAY IT AGAIN???

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