THE KORAN IS AGAINST ARABS OCCUPYING ISRAEL
Surgically removing the Arabs from Israel by cutting off our own limbs is never going to work.
Also see post #46 here:The Trouble with Islam : A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith [/URL]
Home | THE KORAN IS AGAINST ARABS OCCUPYING ISRAEL
Surgically removing the Arabs from Israel by cutting off our own limbs is never going to work.
Also see post #46 here:The Trouble with Islam : A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith [/URL]
Last edited by Batman; 08-29-2004 at 07:43 AM.
It's our (Hebrew) homeland. Period.Originally Posted by Batman
i agree. But for the rest of the world and in particularely the Arabs, they should be pointing fingers at themselves for stealing Jewish land which is EVEN admitted to in the Koran.
But because everyone in the world is ignoring this Koran truth which supports the Jewish people returning to the land of Israel, the Arabs and the world like to say the Jews stole the land. It's actually the other way around according to the Koran!!!!!!!
I think it is worth repeating since no one is talking about it.
the ARABS AND WORLD SHOULD KNOW:
"God wanted to give Abraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.
The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled."
That may be so, but this conflict is not a religious one. It is a matter of conflicting national/ethnic interests.
I think it is a religious/spiritual conflict underneath the national/ethnic interests. Since the Moslems ( completely erroneously) use their religion to justify murdering Jews and have purposely misinterperted their religion so that murdering Jews is permissable and rewarded (72 virgins etc) then we need to see where the root of their folly is.
Besides, the Land of Israel is part of being a Jewish nation and being a Jewish person. Holding on to parts of this land that is OUR land is also holding on to ALL the land and also to our spiritual and national identity.
As an atheist, I don't really understand what "spiritual" means. However, as a Jew/Hebrew I see the land of Israel as my homeland. So do the Israelis, a good half of whom are secular.
I really hate to burst your bubble here, but it’s never a good idea to rely on what others have said without checking up first, and to quote from a source (the Quran) you seem to have never read fully is definitely a bad idea.
Also…SHEIKH Palazzi? When did that happen? Certainly no one, other than his own deluded self, would call him that.
You can of course make up any reasons you like that would justify surgically removing the Arabs but using the Quran just seems a little bit skewed. After all…
1) As some one had already said, even if this were true Why does it matter what the Koran says?
2) Unfortunately for you, it isn’t entirely true.
The one verse you have quoted might indicate that you are right, but look at it in context and you see a different picture.
Please read (5:20-25) I hope this clarify things a little.
(And remember when Musa said to his people: o my people, recall the favor Allah has bestowed on you, when he made prophets among you, and made you kings, and gave you what he had not given to another in creation.
O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah has assigned for you, and turn not back in flight, for then you will be the ones who lose.
They said: Musa, in it are a people of strength, and we shall never enter till they leave, if they leave, we enter.
Two men of those who fear (Allah) on whom Allah had bestowed his Grace, said: enter the gate, for if you enter, victory will be yours , and place your trust in Allah, if you are believers.
They said: Musa, we shall never enter as long as they remain. Go you and your Lord and fight, as for us we will stay.
(Musa) said: Lord, I have only myself and my brother, so separate us from those who disobey.)
The Quran does say that Allah aided the Children of Israel in their escape and that He gave them a land and a covenant, but they turned back. That is not to say there were never Jews in Palestine…Jews, Muslims and Christians, Arab and non-Arab lived there for years in peace. So while it is true that the Quran says the Jews were to find safety in Palestine, it is not true that the Quran supports surgically removing the Arabs, and anyone else who is not Jewish from a Jewish Promised Land that would be for them alone.
I’m afraid you’ll have to look elsewhere to conclude that Muslims do not know their own religion. I would not dictate what you should and should not believe, but this is what the Quran says. You can believe what you want, only it is a little strange to use what others believe ‘completely erroneously’ to back it up.
When did YOU happen? Certainly no one, other than YOUR own deluded self, would call YOU A MAN OF PEACE.
You only prove that there are more Moslems who love to hate Israel and distort the Koran to justify this terrible trait.
The few that speak out are dismissed in favor of hatered. There is no reason for THE SHEIK, WHO IS THE HEAD IMAM OF ITALY to endanger himself and speak out. Except that he is awake and human and knows that his religious beliefs are shamed by people who distort the Koran.
This is THE SHEIK'S (Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi) record: What is yours?---------
Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi has been a lecturer in the Department of the History of Religion at the University of Velletri (Rome, Italy).
In 1987, after completing his secular and religious education in Rome and Cairo, he was asked to serve as an Imam (spiritual leader) for the Italian Islamic Community. In addition to numerous Masters Degrees, Prof. Palazzi holds a Ph.D in Islamic Sciences by decree of the Grand Mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
In 1989 he was appointed a member of the Board of Directors of the Italian Muslim Association (AMI) and afterward elected its Secretary General.
In 1991 he was asked to act as Director of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community (ICCII), with a program based on the development of Islamic education in Italy, refutation of fundamentalism and fanaticism, and deep involvement in inter-religious dialogue, especially with Jews and Christians.
---------------
Although your mininterpretation of the Koran represents the majority of Moslems, that does NOT make your distortion correct, only proves that human nature is feeble, impressionable, easy to dominate especially when envy and hatered are the tools used to egg it on toward a strategic goal by its power hungry leaders.
Basically you and Andak and others like yourselves represent unoriginal thinkers who love to hate and back up their hatered by mininterpreting and believing the leaders who help you misinterpret a religious doctrine.Basically you are 2nd hand sellers of ideas that are stemming from manipulating leaders, wolves in sheep's clothings.
If you people were really truly G-d fearing people you would be glad that Jews have been gifted a land by G-d also, not only the Arabs!!!!!!!!
Especially because Jews have been kind and respectful enough to let you retain your Aqsa at the The Temple Mount in Jerusalem in 1967, but instead you are all greedy. After 1948, when Jordan had the control over Jewish land of East Jerusalem they went on to destroy all the synagogues there. These synagogues stood there for many centuries,since this was Jewish land for centuries since the days of King David, but the Moslems who destroyed them had no love of G-d and no love of kindness. That is the reason why the land which belonged to Jews to begin with yearns to belong back with Jews and came back to us. It's G-d's will!!!!!!
Brainwashing techniques by leaders of religion have long roots and unfortunately people without morals or an inner voice of truth, love to be swept away by these leaders and only care about feeling accepted into the folds of immoral and unethical hatered of Israel, Israelis, Jews and the gift of G-d to the Jewish people which is the LAND OF ISRAEL, AS DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE.
UCSB Islamic Group Rejects Sheikh Palazzi's Anti-Terrorist Message
SHEIKH SAYS
http://digilander.libero.it/islamic/index.html
WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS ABOUT MUSLIMS AND JEWS
By Maulana Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi Head Imam of Italy
THE QUR'AN SAYS:
"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"
"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."
"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."
[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]
MAULANA SHEIKH PALAZZI:
God wanted to give Abraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.
The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.
Is there any fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State?
I realize that a negative answer to the above question is taken for granted by popular opinion. My approach, however, is not based on popular opinion or the current political situation, but on a theological analysis of authentic Islamic sources.
Viewing the Jewish return to Israel as a Western invasion and Zionists as recent colonizers is new. It has no basis in authentic Islamic faith. According to the Qur'an, no person, people or religious community can claim a permanent right of possession over any territory. The Earth belongs exclusively to God, and He is free to entrust sovereignty over land to whomever He likes for whatever time period that He chooses.
"Say: 'O God, King of the kingdom (1), Thou givest the kingdom to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off the kingdom from whom Thou pleasest; Thou endowest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: all the best is in Thy hand. Verily, Thou hast power over all things.'"(2) [Qur'an 3:26]
From the above Qur'anic verse we deduce a basic principle of the Monotheistic philosophy of history: God chooses as He likes in the relationship between peoples and countries. Sometimes He gives a land to a people, and sometimes He takes His possession back and gives it to another people.
In general, we can say that He gives as a reward for faithfulness and takes back as a punishment for wickedness, but this rule does not permit us to say that God's ways are always plain and clear to our eyes, since His secrets are inaccessible to the human intellect.
Using Islam as a basis for preventing Arabs from recognizing any sovereign right of Jews over the Land of Israel is new. Such beliefs are not found in classical Islamic sources.
Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology.
Such a false transformation of Islam was in fact made by the late Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini. He is the one person most responsible, both morally and materially, for the repeated Arab defeats in their conflict with the Jews in Israel.
Husseni not only incited Arabs against Jews. He also encouraged the torture and murder of all Arabs who correctly understood that Arab cooperation with Jews was a precious opportunity for the development of the Land of Israel. Husseini ended his woeful life by putting his perverted religious teachings at the service of the evil and pagan Nazis.
After Husseini came Jamal al-Din 'Abd al-Nasser. Nasser based his policy on Pan-Arabism, hatred and contempt for Jews, and an alliance with the atheistic Soviet Union. Nasser's terrible choices were critical factors in maintaining Arab backwardness. Fortunately, most of Nasser's mistakes were afterward corrected by the martyr Anwar Sadat. (3)
After the defeat of Nasserianism, Islamic fundamentalist movements made anti-Zionism the primary feature of their propaganda. They presented the negation of any Jewish rights to the Land of Israel as rooted in authentic Islam and derived from authentic Islamic religious principles.
The fundamentalist Muslim program to use Islam as an instrument for political warfare against Jews finds a major obstacle in the Qur'an itself. Both the Bible and the Qur'an state quite clearly that the right of the Israelites to the Land of Israel does not depend on conquest and colonization. This right flows from the will of almighty God Himself.
Both the Jewish and Islamic Scriptures teach that God, through His chosen servant Moses, decided to free the offspring of Jacob from slavery in Egypt and to constitute them as heirs of the Promised Land. Whoever claims that Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel is something new and rooted in human politics denies divine revelation and divine prophecy as explicitly expressed in our Holy Books (the Bible and Qur'an).
The Qur'an relates the words by which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:
"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]
Moreover - and those who try to use Islam as a weapon against Israel always conveniently ignore this point - the Holy Qur'an explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment - where it says:
"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]
Therefore, from an Islamic point of view, there is NO fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State.
PLO documents can in no way be regarded as Islamic. The PLO leaders are a gang of criminals and thieves, and Arabs will be the main victims of any supposed "Palestinian State" under their leadership.
I do not believe that Islam is the factor preventing normalization between Arabs and the State of Israel. The real problem is that members of the ruling classes in Arab countries believe their authority and power would be threatned by democracy, modernization, and education in the Arab world. They use a distorted interpretation of Islam as a political tool, and unfortunately the majority of uneducated Arabs believe their poisonous propaganda.
I believe that we must return to the time when Islam was in the vanguard of scientific progress and interfaith dialogue. Instead of false "leaders" such as Qadhafi, Saddam Hussein, Arafat [el-Husseini] or Yasin, we Muslims again need true leaders such as al-Ghazali, Ibn Rushd and Ibn Khaldum.
King Faysal of Iraq said:
"The Arabs, and particularly the educated ones among them, must look at the Zionist movement with the deepest sympathy."
Tragically, true leaders such as Faysal were silenced, and fanatics such as Haj Amin al-Husseini prevailed.
The evil consequences of the victory of fanaticism are clear for all to see: Jews expelled from Arab countries where the lived in peace for over one thousand years, "Palestinian" refugees, terrorism, etc. To avoid future mistakes, we must learn from our past ones.
Unfortunately, there are Arabs who believe that they must fight against Israel until they completely destroy it (a tragedy which I do not believe the God of Israel will ever permit to happen - Never again!).
Unfortunately, there are also naive and foolish Israelis who believe, incredibly to me, that they will achieve "peace" with their Arab neighbours by giving the murderer "Arafat" [el-Husseini] a State, an army, etc. This is insane. You Jews are supposedly famous for your intelligence. How can some of your "leaders" be so stupid?
From the perspective of the natural world, I am not optimistic about what the future holds. However, from the supernatural perspective of faith, we who believe in God must face the future with a positive attitude.
We must have faith that we will see the day when real peace and prosperity - which can only be based on true faith in God and His Word (the Bible and Rabbinic Tradition for you; the Bible, Qur'an and Authentic Islamic Tradition for us) - will spread throughout the world. Meanwhile, we must work together to prepare for a better future.
From an Islamic point of view, is there any fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Jerusalem both as an Islamic Holy Place and as the capital of the State of Israel?
I realize that a negative answer to the above question is taken for granted by popular opinion. My approach, however, is not based on popular opinion or the current political situation, but on a theological analysis of authentic Islamic sources.
JERUSALEM IN THE QUR'AN
The most common argument against Muslim acknowledgment of Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is that, since al-Quds [Jerusalem] (4) is a Holy Place for Muslims, Muslims cannot accept that it is ruled by non-Muslims, because such acceptance amounts to a betrayal of Islam.
Before expressing our point of view on this question, we must reflect upon the reason for which Jerusalem and Masjid al-Aqsa [the Al Aksa mosque] hold such a sacred position in Islamic faith.
As is well known, the inclusion of Jerusalem among Islamic holy places derives from al-Mi'raj, the Ascension of the Prophet Muhammed to heaven. The Ascension began at the Rock, usually identified by Muslim scholars as the Foundation Stone of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem referred to in Jewish sources.
Recalling this link requires us to admit that there is no connection between al-Miraj [the Ascension] and Muslim sovereign rights over Jerusalem since, in the time that al-Miraj took place, the City was not under Islamic, but under Byzantine administration. Moreover, the Qur'an expressly recognizes that Jerusalem plays for Jews the same role that Mecca does for Muslims.
We read: "...They would not follow thy direction of prayer (qiblah), nor art thou to follow their direction of prayer; nor indeed will they follow each other's direction of prayer..." (5)
All Qur'anic commentators explain that "thy qiblah" [direction of prayer for Muslims] is clearly the Ka'bah of Mecca, while "their qiblah" [direction of prayer for Jews] refers to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
To quote only one of the most important Muslim commentators, we read in Qadn Baydawn's Commentary:
"Verily, in their prayers Jews orientate themselves toward the Rock (sakhrah), while Christians orientate themselves eastwards..." (6)
In complete opposition to what "Islamic" fundamentalists continuously claim, the Book of Islam [the Qur'an] - as we have just now seen - recognizes Jerusalem as the Jewish direction of prayer.
Some Muslim commentators also quote the Book of Daniel (7) as a proof for this.
After reviewing the relevant Qur'anic passages concerning this matter, I conclude that, as no one denies Muslims complete sovereignty over Mecca, from an Islamic point of view - despite opposing, groundless claims - there is no reason for Muslims to deny the State of Israel - which is a Jewish State - complete sovereignty over Jerusalem.
Anti-Jewish sentiments expressed by Islamic leaders throughout the Middle East are, in fact, not religious in nature, but, rather, political. The best proof of this is in the fact that Islamic anti-Judaism is quite recent.
Omar ended the Roman ban that prevented Jews to enter Jerusalem, the Ummayad caliphs in Cordoba built a synagogue for Maimonides, and Salahu-d-Din, after defeating the Crusaders, wrote to the Jewish leaders, "Your exile is over. Whoever wants to come back is welcome."
The late King Faysal of Iraq openly expressed his sympathy for the Zionist movement, while King Abdullah of Jordan was compelled to wage war against Israel by the other Arab leaders.
Recently, the Resident Arab ["Palestinian"] Wakf has made pronouncements, such as that the Western Wall (Kotel) is not a Jewish shrine, but, rather, the wall to which the Prophet's [steed] was tethered, or, at best, the wall surrounding the Muslim Mosque. The Wakf has also stated that all of Hebron should be turned over to the Resident Arab ["Palestinian"] Authority, and that Jews would be forbidden to pray in the Cave of the Patriarchs.
These kinds of declarations by the PLO gangsters are ridiculous and absurd.
The Kotel was effectively, according to the Islamic tradition, the place where al-Buraq [the Prophet's steed] was tethered, but it was already an existing part of the Herodian structure. Muslims have never prayed close to it, and it has never had a special relevance in Islam. On the contrary, everyone knows how important it is for Jewish worshippers.
Apart from Mecca, no Islamic holy place is off-limits for non-Muslims. Historical sources say that the Prophet Muhammad entertained a delegation of Christians from Najran in the Mosque of Medina, and permitted them to celebrate a mass inside the Mosque, notwithstanding the fact that Christian rites can include words that are against Islam [such as stating that Jesus is God].
There is nothing in Jewish worship that can be offensive for Muslims, and nothing in Islamic Law prevents Jews to pray on Haram al-Sharif/Har Habayyit (the Temple Mount), in the Cave of Machpela or in any other place that is regarded as holy by Muslims.
Every time I meet those who say otherwise, I ask them to identify a single authoritative Islamic source as legal proof of their claim. None of them has ever answered such a request of mine.
NOTES:
1. The original Arabic word we translated as "kingdom" is mulk, from a Semitic root m-l-k, that is common to both Arabic and Hebrew. According to Islamic theological terminology, the three synonyms for "kingdom" are mulk, malakut and jabarut. They refer respectively to the physical, psychic and spiritual levels of existence. Of course, G-d can be called King of all of them; if here only mulk is quoted, it depends on the fact that this verse directly concerns the earthly domain. To denote a kingdom in the secular and political sense, Arabic commonly uses another derived form, that is mamlakah.
2. Qur'an 3:26. For typographical reasons, it is not possible to reproduce here the original Arabic text of the Qur'an, which must nevertheless be understood as quoted. As well here as in other Qur'anic quotations, the English translation of the meaning of Qur'anic words from Arabic is my own, but based on the most authoritative English commentaries, such as M. Marmaduke Pickthall's "The Meaning of The Glorious Qur'an" (Beirut 1973), 'A. Yusuf 'Ali, "The Holy Qur'an - Text, Translation and Commentary" (Maryland 1983) and A. 'A. Maududi "The Holy Qur'an - Text, Translation and Brief Notes" (Lahore 1986).
3. In using the term "martyr" I do not simply refer to one who lost his life for a good cause. I give a precise translation of the Arabic word "shahid," which identifies a "martyr" in the strictly religious sense; that is to say, someone who spent his life serving the cause of G-d. Since making peace with former enemies is an explicit Qur'anic order (see Qur'an 8:61), and since, according to Islam, Peace is G-d Himself, any believer who is killed because of his search for Peace must be understood as a religious martyr. The same considerations clearly apply to Yitzhak Rabin.
4. Arabic name of Jerusalem, from the root q-d-s, meaning "holiness". It is an abridged form of Bayt al-maqdis, "the sanctified House" or "the House of the Sanctuary", an exact equivalent of the Hebrew Beth ha-mikdash. The name originally referred only to the Temple Mount, and was afterward extended to the City as a whole. This extension of meaning became common among Arabs from the tenth century C.E. onwards. Earlier Islamic sources use the name Iliyia, an adaptation to Arabic pronounciation of the Roman name Aelia.
5. Qur'an 2:145.
6. M. Shaykh Zadeh Hashiyaah 'ali Tafsir al-Qadn al-Baydawn (Istanbul 1979), Vol. 1, p. 456.
7. Daniel 6:10
Fascinating and enlightening, Batman, however, it will be interesting to see, how many Muslims out there concur.
A MAN OF PEACE?Certainly no one, other than YOUR own deluded self, would call YOU A MAN OF PEACE.
As in ‘Ariel-Sharon-of -Sabra-and-Shatila’’s MAN OF PEACE? Err…that’s all right, you can keep your title. That’s just NOT me. And I’m glad you agree.
I read all Palazzi’s views from your earlier link. There was no reason to repeat yourself so many times. Palazzi, secretary general of the Italian Muslim Association IS deluded. That is the best that can be said of him, I’m afraid. Do a search. You will come up with very many Non-Muslims and people who have never even opened a Quran praising him to the high skies, and deciding for themselves what is and what isn’t ‘Islam’, shaking their finger at Muslims and telling them ‘‘We will allow you to follow this particular Palazzi style Islam. If you don’t, why you’re quite obviously a terrorist. Look, you’ve even got a beard’’. And you will see Palazzi’s Islam being compared to ‘Hateful Islam’ or ‘Perverted Islam’ or even more hilarious: ‘THE VENOM’.
If it wasn’t so sad, it would be funny.
People who know next to nothing about Islam find this sheik, and suddenly they have all the answers. They’re experts on Islam, because after all, as long as they can add the words ‘THE SHEIK SAYS’ it doesn’t matter that their message –and his- makes about as much sense as Sharon’s English.
That’s Sheik Palazzi’s job. He supports everything the Zionists have ever said.
There is no such thing as Palestine (check)
The ‘barren land’ which, recognizing it’s ‘original sons’, is now ‘blooming’ (check)(perhaps the whole conflict is actually about green fingers, gardening skills, sprinklers and cash. What do you say?)
The Palestinians don’t know they don’t even exist because ‘these passages have been removed from their books’ (check check)
He even goes so far as to say the Quran in Palestine is a different one than in other countries. The Palestinian Quran, he argues, is one where ‘All of the proofs are deleted. But in other Islamic countries you do find all proofs in the Koran.’
That is so superior a piece of reasoning that it seems a shame to point out that actually the ‘Palestinain Quran’ is exactly the same as any other Quran…and than even in ‘other Islamic countires’ if he bothered reading a few more lines he would have discovered that it was perhaps easier to make up his own verses. But then, he only needed that one verse. The rest- even if it kind of ever so slightly changes the meaning - doesn’t matter to him. It doesn’t fit into the Zionist view, so it goes out of Islam. He must have had a lot of note comparing to do. Must have gone a bit cross eyed, in fact.
There’s no Palestinan people in Zionism? Right. So no Palestine in Islam.
Barren land blooming? Let’s find a verse that speaks of a garden in the Quran. A bit of plastic surgery and…hey presto! The Quran prophesizes that the barren land will bloom when it’s ‘original sons’ return.
One of these days I wouldn’t be too surprised to see ‘SHEIK SAYS: QURAN STATES: all settlements in the occupied territories should have a MacDonalds. Anyone who says otherwise is a Terrorist.’
The reason? He has this wonderful dream of being allowed to become something he calls a ‘Muslim Zionist’. I’m being serious. Perhaps you should make him an honorary member. He’s done a lot for you, after all.
And then I am told by you that I ‘distort the Koran’ . That really, really makes me laugh. Frankly, Palazzi might seem useful to you, but you won’t find many Muslims who believe anything he says. Ok, he is a Sheik…the Sheik of the Non-Muslims, since they are the only ones who have less knowledge of the Quran than he does, so he can safely lie to them. And if Muslims object? Why, they’re part of the ‘Perverted, Twsited Venom Islam.’ Such logical circular reasoning.
I would point out that you have not attempted to refute my proof. Or can you only see that one verse? If you believe I made them up, you’d have to be prepared to believe that every other Muslims in the whole world picked up their Qurans and started scribbling on them. Because whether or not you want to believe it, that’s what the Quran says.
I don’t follow any ‘power hungry leaders’ because I don’t follow any leaders at all. I have the Quran and I have the Sunna. I interpret what I read for myself, and in any case, it would be pretty hard to misinterpret the verses I quoted.
My objections to Zionism's policies do not reflect anti-Jewish beliefs, even if that is what you might like to think. Both Jews and Christians are respected in Islam as People of the Book and true monotheists. If I am anti-Zionist, that does NOT mean I am in any way anti-Jewish.
Since you didn’t really answer to my reply, except by re-posting Palazzi’s ramblings, I’ll make it clearer and hope that you will reply eventually.
The usual Zionist view (you’ll correct me if I’m wrong I’m sure) which I have encountered is that they came to Palestine in the late 19th century to claim their ancestral homeland. They bought land and built up communities. Then, suddenly (according to some accounts because the Arabs were stricken with a certain degree of ‘green’ envy at their wonderful gardens) they were met with violent opposition stemming (according to other accounts) from the Arabs inherent anti-Semitism. (Never mind that the Arabs are Semitic, or that Jews and Arabs lived in peace before Zionism) The Zionists were of course forced to defend themselves, which they continue to do today, surrounded by hostile Arab nations.
Sounds reasonable. After all, given the history of oppression of Jews, it is understandable that the Zionists wanted to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate.
Except…from the onset the Zionist movement’s ultimate goal was of complete dispossession of the Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state. One method to encourage this was that land bought by the Jewish National Fund was bought in the name of all Jews and could never be sold or even leased to Arabs (still the case today). This automatically threatened the existence of an Arab society. Thus the opposition began…and the Zionists need for the British.
Zionism has a colonialist world view that says the rights of the indigenous inhabitants don't matter. The Palestinians opposition to this view comes from an opposition to being robbed of the land they have lived on for thousands of years…plus being told they actually don’t exist and they don’t know that they don’t exist because it was removed from their books.
The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to over 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. And they had been there for thousands of years. If you say Palestine belongs to you because you lived there thousands of years ago, the Palestinians can say the same.
Here’s a few sources, which I hope you won’t ignore:
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, "Their Promised Land."
"But all these [different peoples who had come to Canaan] were additions, sprigs grafted onto the parent tree...And that parent tree was Canaanite...[The Arab invaders of the 7th century A.D.] made Moslem converts of the natives, settled down as residents, and intermarried with them, with the result that all are now so completely Arabized that we cannot tell where the Canaanites leave off and the Arabs begin." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at a 414 year rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.
"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
"The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was `to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.'...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha'am wrote that the Arabs "understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at'...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] `We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly'...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund's request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
"Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880's...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it." Don Peretz, "The Arab-Israeli Dispute."
"[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the 'rightful' possession of the 'Jewish people' to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
Anyway, as I’ve told you before, believe what you want. Just DON’T use MY religion as an excuse to ‘surgically remove’ MY people from land they have been living on for thousands of years.
THAT is not funny.
Yes, it’s a long post. What can I say? One long post deserves another.
I thought we were discussing the Koran. Now you certainly have moved away from the Koran to the politics. That will not fly.
You say in post of Today 12:05 PM: "I don’t follow any ‘power hungry leaders’ because I don’t follow any leaders at all. I have the Quran and I have the Sunna. I interpret what I read for myself, and in any case, it would be pretty hard to misinterpret the verses I quoted"
Well, if every Moslem chooses his own interpretation than I guess there must be at least a few billion interpretations of the Koran. I for myself will choose the one by the Sheik. He seems a reasonable and humane person. He is a beacon of light in the dark hate world I see coming from the world of the Moslem preachers and students.
Anyway, a weak argument on your part in your second post is to mention the Arabs going back to ancient times. So what? They are not a separate people called Palestinians. There is no Palestinian group stemming to some ancient time. Palestinians Arabs are simply Arab refugees that no Arab leader wanted to help out and absorb into the general Arab people which have over 20 different lands!
There is humanity for you. The Arabs threw out just about all the Jews out of the Arab lands since 1948 and there were over 800,000 Jews from Arab lands who became refugees but were absorbed happily into Israel.
What did the Arabs do with their own nearly 700,000 Arab refugees whom they encouraged to leave Israel in 1948 because they were so sure they were going to win the 1948 Israel's Independence War?
They left them to rot and become what they have become today. Arab refugees who are being used by the Arab League of Nations, a criminal Mafia styled leadership, a people who are the receivers of the largest welfare ever in the history of the world, a people whose life is only worth something if they continue to fight Israel. Is this right in your eyes? Is this how Arabs treat each other?
This is how much Arabs 'care for' their own people, to let them rot and suffer for 50 years is not as important as the hatered of Jewish people (yes Jewish people not zionists because Zionism is Judaism for your information!) who live in Israel.
Unlike the Arab idea of removing all the Jewish people out of the Middle East, there are plently of Arabs living in Israel and benfitting greatly from the goodness of their host country.
Golda Meir was right. She said: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate Israel."
The Arab leaders are your problem not Israel.
History of PALESTINE
I am a very lucky Arab
I am a very lucky Arab
Posted: 7/29/2004 3:56:00 PM
Author: Unknown
Source: http://www.standwithus.com
I am a lucky Arab
My grandfather, Mohammed, traveled on foot from his home in Iraq in the early part of the last century looking for work. Jews had come to British controlled Palestine in the thousands, joining the Jews that had always been here, buying up land from absentee Turkish Muslim owners, and they needed many workers to help them build the land. He married, raised a large family,worked hard, and lived quietly.
I live in Haifa in Israel. In 1948 when Israel declared its independence, Arab armies from surrounding Arab states attacked with the intention of destroying the new state. I was about 15 years old and remember well the radio broadcasts from Arab states telling us to leave our homes and move eastward temporarily while the advancing Arab armies wiped out the Jews. They told us we would then return in triumph to our homes and would have the joy of taking over all the Jewish assets: their homes, farms, shops, cars, and bank accounts.
My father, Ibrahim, was a very wise man, a learned man, and a man of peace. We had good relationships with our neighbors, Christian, Jew, and Muslim. He gathered the entire family and explained why he did not believe it wise to flee, that he did not believe the Jews would mistreat us.
We stayed put. We are still here.
Today I still live in my father's old stone house with my wife and the youngest of our eight children. My older children and my many grandchildren all live nearby. We have never been mistreated, and we are much better off
than those Arabs who fled and who ended up in miserable refugee camps being supported by the UN and charities.
I want you to know what my life is like as an Arab citizen of Israel.
I was educated in Israeli schools and universities. I became a pharmacist
and worked in a large pharmacy in Haifa. I was paid the same salary, and
received the same benefits as my Jewish colleagues. Now I'm retired. I receive two
pensions; one based on the investment plan to which my company and I contributed. The other comes from the Israeli government National Insurance plan.
I have eight children. Every month I received child allowance payments from the government until each became 18. I know of no other country where
this happens, certainly not any Arab nation.
Our entire family is covered by the National Health Plan which provides good medical care. All my children were born in hospital, my wife received excellent ante and postnatal care. All medical and surgical is covered
from the first Shekel from birth to death, and when we die even the cost of burial
is covered!
My children went to school with Jewish children, they were members of the same sports clubs and the community center, and they all received university
educations, some with state scholarships.
I pray in a Mosque, which was built on land donated by the Jewish National Fund.
I am a citizen, I have a passport, can travel anywhere, anytime. I vote in local and national elections, and we have a number of Arab members in Parliament.
I have a very good life, and so has my family.
I feel for those Arabs forced to live under Arafat, for they are being used and abused badly. I long for the day that Arafat is no more, that a real peace treaty can be negotiated with Israel, so that the Palestinian Arabs
can have a better life also.
I long for the day I can travel to visit cousins in Ramallah without fear of being called a collaborator and executed.
I thank Allah my grandfather came here. I thank Allah my father did not leave in 1948. I thank Allah my children were raised here, in the only free country in the Middle East.
We are very lucky Arabs.
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