The Yarmulke Ban

[andak01]

Almost nobody is mentioning the fact that the headscarf ban in French public schools includes religious garb of all religions. I assume that Hindus are also being forbidden from their dots as well. Does anyone here have a reaction one way or the other to that ban? I believe that there should be no compulsion in religion (including forcing anyone to wear a headscarf), just as there shouldn't be any compulsion against religion. It's interesting that the same people outraged at a show of modesty don't seem to mind public spectacles of tittilation such as occur routinely on the media.

[Justcurious]

I agree with Andak and believe the ban also concerns symbols of other religions. I do not have a strong opinion on the French ban, but I kind of support the French view.

[Hisardut]

it doesnt bother me... anyways most religeous jewish kids go to private schools... + im sure someone could easily develop a timy kippa which can be hidden under hair and not be visible...

[KettleWhistle]

I believe religion is an inherently evil thing, so on one hand it is good when government sweeps it under the rug. On the other hand, I don't believe in dresscodes, and I would rather see politicians not regulate who wears what. As for the kippa (yarmulke) ban, it's good thing.

[redcake]

How is it bothering anyone if someone wears something on their head?

What if I happen to find the particular baseball cap you wear offensive because it doesn't represent the team I root for? I mean, many Hasidic wear fine hats over their yarmulkes... are we not going to allow secular hats too?

Yarmulkes and Hindu dots are a little more understated then many of the common Muslim Head dresses worn, but there are some less overt versions that should be allowed.

What the hell happened to defending religious freedoms?! It's like a bunch of recovering alcoholics going to town hall meetings complaining about the bar opening down the block to tempt them.... "they shouldn't be allowed to wear their religious garb, it just tempts me to wanna commit hate crimes, and you shouldn't encourage that..ban 'em all!".

One more thing. Saying "I belive religion is an inherently evil thing" is about as charming as a bible thumper praying for your soul because they think "atheism is an inherently evil thing". What's really inherently evil is taking a "those people" attitude to anyone who doesn't live the same way you do.

[KSO]

How is it bothering anyone if someone wears something on their head?

What if I happen to find the particular baseball cap you wear offensive because it doesn't represent the team I root for? I mean, many Hasidic wear fine hats over their yarmulkes... are we not going to allow secular hats too?

Yarmulkes and Hindu dots are a little more understated then many of the common Muslim Head dresses worn, but there are some less overt versions that should be allowed.

What the hell happened to defending religious freedoms?! It's like a bunch of recovering alcoholics going to town hall meetings complaining about the bar opening down the block to tempt them.... "they shouldn't be allowed to wear their religious garb, it just tempts me to wanna commit hate crimes, and you shouldn't encourage that..ban 'em all!".

One more thing. Saying "I belive religion is an inherently evil thing" is about as charming as a bible thumper praying for your soul because they think "atheism is an inherently evil thing". What's really inherently evil is taking a "those people" attitude to anyone who doesn't live the same way you do.

I think this law is a very stupid law especialy to muslims, with jews this is less of a problem,because jews in france are already assimilated and a part of French society and I guess the Law tried to speed up the assimilation of the Muslim community but the problem that probably it will just make the opposite, because while Sons of Immingrants will go to secular goverment schools (no matter what they'll wear) they gonna probably slowly become more secular than their parents and eventually in 2-3 generations just become French citizens of Arab\Muslim origin, but this ban can make many muslim parents to enroll their kids in independent traditional muslim schools and a big part of the current French muslim generation will grow up as conservative Muslims who will find it much harder to become a part of french society, and as we know most religious schools (of any religion) often don't provide many of the knowledge needed in the modern world.

[Roland]

Almost nobody is mentioning the fact that the headscarf ban in French public schools includes religious garb of all religions. I assume that Hindus are also being forbidden from their dots as well. Does anyone here have a reaction one way or the other to that ban? I believe that there should be no compulsion in religion (including forcing anyone to wear a headscarf), just as there shouldn't be any compulsion against religion. It's interesting that the same people outraged at a show of modesty don't seem to mind public spectacles of tittilation such as occur routinely on the media.

We have something similar like france's headscarf ban here in the making, too.
Teachers with headscarfs cannot teach at public schools.
Muslim girls are not discouraged from wearing headscarfs but the public opinion builds a huge prejudice about headscarfes.
But I seldomly see women wearing headscarfes who only leave the eyes visible, then.
There is an ongoing fighting if public schools in areas with a majority of catholics of protestants have to remove wall mounted crucifixes from classrooms.

[Justcurious]

There is an ongoing fighting if public schools in areas with a majority of catholics of protestants have to remove wall mounted crucifixes from classrooms.

Until some twenty years ago we had wall-mounted portraits of former presidents on the walls of public places. I don't remember having seen wall-mounted crucifixes in classrooms, but there may have been. At least there are plates with names of men who had been killed in action in World War II.

It'd be very difficult to decide what to ban, if such a law was made.

[Isiah 2:4]

Yes it applies to all religious headgear or overt symbols of faith. No big Crucifixes or Magenim David (Stars of David). No Sikh Turbans. No Yarmulkes/Kippahs. No Hindu Bindhi's. No Islamic Hijab. And remember, they are only banned in SCHOOLS. Not in society or public at large. But still, the focus is upon the Hijab. Still, all the newpapers are whining about is the Hijab. Why? Because Muslims were expected to make a fuss, and so they pandered to that fuss. And they'll continue to make that fuss, and we know it. Only Muslims decided to KIDNAP innocents to try to have the law repealed. The terrorists who did it weren't even French.

Until Muslims in democratic nations realise that the laws which govern societies like ours apply to everyone, equally, with no special discrimination, they will continue to whine and moan because they want to be treated differently. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work like that.

[andak01]

Just remember, it's not the Muslims of France that kidnapped anyone, nor are they giving the government a hard time. It is Muslim extremists living out their sick fantasies in the virtual anarchy of Iraq. Until there is a single recognized police force an a viable self determined leadership, these wretched events are likely to play again and again. The safety of foreign workers whose salaries are many times that of the natives, and who are percieved to be an invasion force cannot be maintained until such time.

I'm sure those extremists were hoping that the ban would be cause for some popular uprising. That didn't occur and the first day of the ban was rather uneventful.

[KettleWhistle]

One more thing. Saying "I belive religion is an inherently evil thing" is about as charming as a bible thumper praying for your soul because they think "atheism is an inherently evil thing". What's really inherently evil is taking a "those people" attitude to anyone who doesn't live the same way you do.

There are no "those people," only those ideas, namely the religious myths. What's wrong with critisizing ideas?


P.S. And there is nothing wrong with bible thumpers praying for my soul. I know a few who pray for mine, so what? I just think it's stupid because there is no such thing as "soul," so they are wasting their time talking to their imaginary friend.

[Mediocrates]

The key point to remember is what role a govt plays in shoehorning everyone into a preconceived notion of what national identity is? It's a slam dunk to bar students from wearing gang colors or obscene t shirts or overly sloppy or revealing clothes. It's not so clear when you start defining what an appropriate expression of personal values looks like. What if all the Christian kids start wearing WWJD bracelets instead? Or the muslim kids wear a t shirt covered in Arabic and so on? Does the govt then decide that these proxies are banned as well? Does it help to give over to the state the definition of what expressions of values are?

[Binyamin]

There is a very long thread about this already (here).

I think that while there is nothing inherently wrong with hijab, it seems to give extremists encouragement, and maybe a sense of Muslim domination. The people who wear it, therefore, unintentionaly encourage extremism. This should justify banning the hijab, even though it will violate the religious freedom of alot of well-meaning women.

Banning just the hijab, besides for being very politically incorrect, and therefore almost impossible, would probably encourage a sense of solidarity among Muslims, and would probably do more harm than good. By banning all religious symbols France is able to remove the hijab without directly threatening muslims. (The reason there is alot of talk only about the hijab is because it is obviously the main focus of the law.) Banning the yarmulka becomes a necesarry evil for anyone who wants a ban on the hijab.

Here is a analysis from RAND, giving a similair argument, in detail.

[redcake]

I think it's important to note that head scarves on women are actually not required by Islam.

[Isiah 2:4]

Yeah that's true. Once again, another cultural phenomenon is justifed by reference to religion. I think i have said on here before that there are numerous Arab cultural practices that were taken around the world with Islam, but not in Islam. They have proceeded to gradually become indistinct from one another.