Why sooner or later, Palestine must be established - -Part 2

[Blue Moon]

Oh Isreal.
Don't give in. Don't be mislead. Don't be weak.
The Jewish people have survived hatred, death, pograms, and attempted genocide for thousands of years because of belief in God, faith, and determination. Don't believe you have to give in to popular world opinion and risk your children and the four thousand year-old dream that so many millions of your ancestors were tortured and oppressed and died for - - Isreal.

Fact: You will be endangering Israel by permitting a Palestinian state at this time. Wake up !!! Look at what's happening in the northern portion of your country - - the Lebanese border.
That's all you need, a Palestinian state headed by Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, ect . . ., next to one of your geographically most vulnerable points, fully armed with tanks, aircraft, bombers, heavy artillary, with, perhaps, a few chemicals, and maybe even, at least, a "dirty bomb" or two, or three, or fifty to top it off.

Fact: most of the world will still hate, dislike, or, at best, begrudginly indifferent to Isreal and the Jewish people if you allow a Palestinian state.

Fact: most of the Arabic world will still want you dead. They hate you. They hate what you stand for. Read the PLO charter carefully - - Arafat never repudiated in fact. You must focus on this. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah - - they will not stop slaughtering your wives, your mothers, your fathers, your children. Their level of hate is actually probably more sincere and heartfelt than that professed by the average German or even Nazi in the 1930's and 1940's - - Hitler brilliantly used the Jews as a propoganda scapegoat to help foster the Treaty of Versaille- downtrodden German population into a pack of wide-eyed, foaming-mouth supporters for expansionism and war. The West Bank and Gaza Arabs, on the other hand, have much more practice at hating Jews, and their educational and propoganda Jew-hating techniques would make Hitler proud.
Fact: The West Bank and Gaza Arabs - - and let me be clear here, I mean as AS A GROUP, AS A SOCIETY - - I DO NOT MEAN ALL ARABS INDIVIDUALLY - - are not emotionally, or politically, or culturally developed or stable enough to manage and operate a democracy - - a democracy which would provide hope and opportunity and thwart the hate-filled brainwashing by the Arab leaders who divert the populations focus from their own corruptness and evil doings.

"Peace" will only come through one of two events:
1) Isreal will militarily defeat the terrorists and their supporters to the extent the U.S. and Russia defeated Hitler and Japan in WWII.
Once compltely defeated and terrorists, and their sympathizers, and supporters and trainers wiped out, the West Bank and Gaza Arabs will have no choice but to enter into the 21st Century.

2) The U.S. and Isreal will 1) depose Arafat through one way or another, 2) install a puppet regime until the region is ready for real democratic elections, 3) wipe out the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, ect . . . in the territories, 4)wipe out the terrorist training, funding, and support enterprises in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, ect . . . 5) infuse billions of dollars into the region through careful money management, to enure the money is actually spent on building real schools and universities that don't preach hate (by the way, we need to take care of this in the U.S. too !!! It's a BIG problem here ), as well as hospitals, and developing the regine econimically - - in short, giving hope.

Either way, a lot of people are going to die. But that is how nations are built, and enemies conquered and tamed. This is the real world ? Stop singing "Koombayah" and "Let's Give Peace A Chance." If you don't, you and your children, mothers, fathers, and wives will continue to be slaughtered.
Fact: there are real monsters out there, children. You may lose it all by putting your head in the sand, and being desperate, and cowardly, and foolishly being sold the big lie: that the Arafat traveling, Jew-killing circus will leave town if you just give him more.

LISTEN CAREFULLY ISREAL: MILLIONS ARABS HATE YOU AND WANT YOU DEAD. REALLY DEAD. THEY ARE THE ONES IN CONTROL IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA. GIVING IN TO A PALESTINIAN STATE AT THIS TIME WILL NOT PLACATE HAMAS, JIHAD, ARAFAT, THE PLO, HEZBOLLAH, OR THE TERRORIST TRAINERS, FUNDERS, AND SUPPORTERS IN IRAQ, IRAN, LEBANON, SYRIA, LIBYA, SAUDI ARABIA, KUWAIT, ECT., ECT., ECT., (I don't care what that duplicitous oil pimp from Saudi Arabia told President Bush).
NEWS ALERT: YOU ARE IN DANGER, AND ONE ELEMENT USED IN WARFARE IS DECEPTION AND TRICKERY. LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF THE REGION - - THINK OF THE GRAND MUFTI AND HITLER - - THINK ARAFAT IN THE '70'S, THE 80'S, THE 90'S. HE IS PLAYING YOU LIKE A FOOL. ARE YOU GETTING THIS ISREAL ?

[takeo]

This last post is a typical example of lunatics trying to monger hate, fear, war againts a whole region, etnic cleansing and oppression and the diabolisation of a whole society.
It represents pure nazism.
As a true fascist the autor uses the basic instincts (fear) of people and also lies (for example that the PLO has never recognised israel) to bring his lunatic message and spread hate and propose unrealistic violent solutions. His solution would certainly lead to the end of Israel or in the worst case to WWIII.
Palestinians will fight people as you who ignore all their rights at an own peaceful country untill the death, and they should, and i'm sure neither do you represent the israeli people, israel doesn't need defenders like you...

Get it in your head that you can never defeat the whole world, the only way to receive peace is by giving the Palestinians their basic rights and return stolen property and land. Also you are evil because you compare palestinians with Hitler. In fact you should compare yourself with Hitler, you want the oppression of an entire people by unlimited violence and oppression, because they are standing in the way of of the "four thousand year-old dream " (remember the Tirth Reich...)
in fact i shouldn't even bother answering such trolls, but sometimes it just makes me angry reading this.

[Mediocrates]

I recommend you read this piece on strategy vs. crisis management:

http://www.israeleconomy.org/strategic7/crisis.htm


It's rather long (21 pages) but not overly difficult to cover. One salient point is to remember that 'conflict resolution' has to be aware of it's own failures and to understand that there are cases that require military resolution. It doesn't necessarily fit with anyone's world view or poltical bent, but there it is.

I'd also recommend you read this:

http://www.israeleconomy.org/political1/peace.htm

A strategic analysis of the peace process. Again not terribly long at 44 pages though I admit I've only given it a quick look so far. It seems right up the alley of some of the folks here. The only thing you have to lose is your ignorance.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
This last post is a typical example of lunatics trying to monger hate, fear, war againts a whole region, etnic cleansing and oppression and the diabolisation of a whole society.

No, that post from Blue Moon contains true facts that scare the heck out of Leftists like yourself, Takeo.

Of course there are millions of Arabs who want all Israelis and probably all Jews dead and gone. Who says that? Not only Blue Moon or myself, but the Arabs themselves say this publicly. How can you deny these realities?

[L@mplighterM]

Nice post Blue Moon.

[takeo]

True facts???
come on, maybe SOME Arabs or Palestinians want to kill all jews, a very small minority, most just want a normal life and want to cooperate with jews (many jews still live in for example tunisia or Morocco) or even with israel, on the condition of course that the fundamental rights of the palestinians are no longer ignored.

this kind of grouce exaggerations and hate-mongering is not serving the interests of the middle East and are NOT based on facts.

here some sincere and one of the best analysis of the peace-process and the conflict from the palestinian point of view, scientific and based on facts:
http://mural.uv.es/kelfa/esworks.html

you should all read this to have a better understanding of the other side you like to present as evil.

of course it didn't surprise me that lomplighter has found a soulmate...

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo


here some sincere and one of the best analysis of the peace-process and the conflict from the palestinian point of view, scientific and based on facts:
http://mural.uv.es/kelfa/esworks.html

you should all read this to have a better understanding of the other side you like to present as evil.

Ah, takeo, you can hardly link to Edward Said's work without me wanting to mention my long-ago thread, my first on IsraelForum.

The Lies of Edward Said: http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...=&threadid=209

Edward Said has pathological lying problems, like many of his allies.

[takeo]

of course, whatever contradicting the views of JP and pro-israeli supporters are lies...
I don't thinke E. Said is lying, but for sure lies are no monopoly of the palestinians and their supporters, they are used by Sharon, the jP and on this forum on daily basis. (for example one obvious lie always returning "arabs started the war in 1967" among many others).

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by takeo
here some sincere and one of the best analysis of the peace-process and the conflict from the palestinian point of view, scientific and based on facts:
http://mural.uv.es/kelfa/esworks.html

I read garbled memoir of a meeting with Sartre in the late 70's but fail to see the connection.

As with most things Said, he offers little in an actual Palestinian perspective besides dressing up blame. For example this excerpt of one of the articles in that URL:

(quote)
.....it has become increasingly difficult to say what Arafatism actually is, what its ideas, what its vision and contents are made of. No one at all doubts that the Palestinian situation today is indelibly marked by his command of it, and that his style -- which, in a perceptive biography of Arafat, Said Abu Rish devastatingly characterises as a mix of sloppiness, improvisation, lack of study or preparation, and secrecy -- has simply overwhelmed everything in its path.....
(unquote)

This is very telling. Why? Because to Arafat it's representative of charisma. To the rest of the world it's representative of paranoid monomania. But one would expect dictators to be paranoid. Machiavelli told us this 500 years ago.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
of course, whatever contradicting the views of JP and pro-israeli supporters are lies...
I don't thinke E. Said is lying, but for sure lies are no monopoly of the palestinians and their supporters, they are used by Sharon, the jP and on this forum on daily basis. (for example one obvious lie always returning "arabs started the war in 1967" among many others).

Said lied about his entire life, for starters. He personally throws rocks at IDF soldiers, for another. Are you excusing him on the basis of what you think some pro-Israeli supporters have done? Don't you have higher standards for your luminaries?

As for "arabs started the war in 1967," that is of course true. Perhaps the difficulty here is a confusion in terms.

Define "started."

Define "war."

Define "1967."

[Mediocrates]

Res 242 was authored in large part by Arthur Goldberg, former US Supreme Court Justice and US UN ambassabor at the time. It neither says anything about which territory nor does it say land for peace nor does it say anything about any stable conditions that have to be met by Israeli beforehand nor does it say anything about PLO continued terrorism as an acceptable state of affairs. According to 242 Israel is not actually occupying anything other than Israel.

So all the apologists should shut up and learn to read for meaning or get a lawyer to translate it into terms they can understand.

[Blue Moon]

Re: reply post #2: Takeo

I saw a lot of outrage in your reply. Good. Wake up.
Have a cup of coffee, splash some cold water on your face.
Now go read some accurate historical accounts of the Middle East,
and the history of the Jewish people, and then tell me with
a straight face that most of the Arab countries, including the West Bank and Gaza Arabs, are not serious Jew-haters, and don't want to see the destruction of the state of Israel. More importantly, tell me with the same straight face how the Islamic Fundamentalist movements and terrorists don't post a clear death threat to Israel, and tell me that it, in fact, it is not the clearly stated goal of many such groups to see the destruction of Isreal and elimination of the Jews - - a Palestinian state is only a mechanism towards this end.

By the way, what have the fellow Arabic countries done for the West Bank and Gaza refugees recently ???? Think Jordan.
Think Lebanon. Do you know what the phrase "opportunity puppets" means - - good, I don't either, I just made it up
(smile)

Back the ever-so serious argument:
I missed your factual analysis refuting the two ultimate scenarios I set forth.

Sarcasm aside, my head was in the sand too, for a long time.

Believe it or not, I wished for a real peace treaty at Oslo.

Believe it or not, I became enraged and felt sorrow when an insanse Isreali settler machine gunned down many Muslims
in a Mosque years ago, and when an Israeli missile killed many
innocent Arabs.

Believe it or not, I have a non-so special feeling for Sharon
with respect to the Saabra camp incident in Lebanon.

But, my friend, Israel is a nation, a soveriegn, just like the United States, with a paramount duty to protect itself. Unfortunately,
it is time to say, enough is enough. This is becoming a slow war of attrition against Isreal. This is a question of Israel's ultimate survival. Isreal - a country for whom millions of Jews died and were tortured and persecuted for, for thousands of years - - beginning a long, long, long time before Islam was even created.

You are offended by my reference to the Nazi's ???
Unfortunately, your response somewhat reveals the extent of your knowledge (or lack thereof) of Middle East and Jewish history.You ever hear of the Grand Mufti ? You've obviously heard of Adolph Hitler. Who traveled to Berlin during WWII and met with the Nazi's and Hitler, and helped convince Hitler to not expel the Jews in Europe to Palestine, but instead gas them, cook them,
and use their skin for lampshades ? Who helped convince the British to turn back Jewish refugees fleeing the ovens in Europe ?
You'll get the daily double if you can correctly answer that.

You grossly underestimate the number of Arabs that hate Israel and the Jews, and the West and the United States for that matter. I suggest, for many reasons, you carefully read not only about the history of the Middle East during the 20th century, but also listen to and read broadcasts of mainstream media and propoganda from many Arabic countries. Your mouth will drop open. Your ignorance of the blood lible is actually scary.

A few years ago, you could have enriched your life by visiting the special museum Arafat and his buddies built, commemorating the slaughter of the innocent people trying to get a bite to eat in a Pizza Parlor - - yep, that's right, simulated body parts, blood, and all.

Oh, I almost forgot, what group of people were caught on film dancing joyfully in the streat upon learning that almost 3,000 human beings in New York were incinerated and slaughtered on 9/11 ? Gee, after the Saabra camp incident, the Isreali Supreme Court essentially criticized Sharon - - and I somehow missed the footage of Isreali citizens dancing in the streets - - of course not, most were enraged at Sharon.

Number 2: try this experiment. Research what they say about Israel and Jews in many mosques in the Middle East. Now compare what is being taught in most Jewish Temples.
Now explain to me how it is that "God" is worshipped and respected so differently.

I'm sorry, #2. I wish the world was as safe for Isreal as you apparently think it is. But when the Russian wall came-a-tumbling down, the few sane people in the military and intellensia warned us that the new "enemy" of the millenium will fanatical Islamic terrorists. And, unfortunately, they were right.

And unfortunately, the innocent West Bank and Gaza Arabs are lead and brainwashed with blood libel by, you guessed it, fanatical Islamic terrorists.

I wished it were different, I truly do. I do hope for democracy and prosperity the Arabs in the region, but Isreal must survive, and, for at least today, a Palestinian state will prove to be nothing more than a Trojan Horse for insane, fundamentalist Islamic terrorism.

#2: Final point: please articulate how Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Al-Quada- and the rest will stop attacking Israeli citizens if the West Bank and Gaza Arabs are given a state, and please articulate why the resulting Palestinian state will not arm itself with tanks, missles, and fighter jets, and bombers, and use these items for even more devastating terrorist attacks on Israel ??? And how could you even have a Palestinian airport, from which another misguided Arab could take off in a small plane loaded with explosives and fly into the nearest Israeli hi-rise ?

Here's a sincere "Shalom" from a "lunatic" to ya !
- Later

[Vic]

Does anyone here realize that takeo is actually a Jew himself:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...=5394#post5394 ?

[takeo]

ani znayut tchto ya evreyskiy

actually that's the reason why i am on this board and interested in the Middle East problems, as you too i suppose.

[takeo]

"I read garbled memoir of a meeting with Sartre in the late 70's but fail to see the connection. "

Read the other links which are more interesting for this discussion.

"As with most things Said, he offers little in an actual Palestinian perspective besides dressing up blame. "

No actually, on the contrary to you, he is making an objective analysis and tries to find the weak and good points of every person, ideology and party, not only of the other side. (of course from a personal point of view, as all writers by the way)






"Said lied about his entire life, for starters. He personally throws rocks at IDF soldiers, for another. Are you excusing him on the basis of what you think some pro-Israeli supporters have done? Don't you have higher standards for your luminaries? "

No, but before accusing anyone of being a lier look at your own heroes and the people who you defend.
By the way, how do you know for sure where the man is born? all this fuss around his personal life is because they find his writings deeply disturbing, so start to make personal attacks, the good old autoritarian way.



"Define "started."

Define "war." "

A war is started when some country launched the first military attack on the others territory, i think we all agree on that, don't we???
as japan launched the war against the US by attacking pearl harbour.






"Res 242 was authored in large part by Arthur Goldberg, former US Supreme Court Justice and US UN ambassabor at the time. It neither says anything about which territory nor does it say land for peace nor does it say anything about any stable conditions that have to be met by Israeli beforehand nor does it say anything about PLO continued terrorism as an acceptable state of affairs. According to 242 Israel is not actually occupying anything other than Israel.
So all the apologists should shut up and learn to read for meaning or get a lawyer to translate it into terms they can understand."

for the billionth time: "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;" (ps: the resolution was in 1967, so guess what territories they are refering to...)
(but as well: "For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem
(For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones


and now occupation-apologists shut up and learn to read!

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/b86...2560c3005da209!OpenDocument

according to the Geneva-conventions, armed resistance againts occupation is legal.