Why sooner or later, Palestine must be established - -Part 2

[elke]

Beyond that, internal government policies and natural resources matter a great deal. 100 years ago, when all the world was market was agrarian, single family farms, government policies weren't as important. Today, if a dictator spends him money enriching his own coffers, rather then ensure a stable energy supply, the countries economy will suffer.

Absolutely! Beyond that, they also line their military coffers in order to stay in power. Since you can't eat guns, it presents a problem.

The Third World's main problem is education. Education leads to more efficient labor force, even when the jobs are not "white collar".

[takeo]

of course that's right, but for good education you need money... and poor countries don't have much money to spend on education (by the way yes many are also involved in war, corruption and bad leadership, which seems to be a typical consequence of poverty, no money=corruption on all levels)

but good education isn't enough, Russia and Ukrain have very good education, as countries as morocco, but if there isn't a good industry and economic quality, or those have collapsed (Russia) than it means educated people can find no jobs and will massively emigrate to rich countries.


"It's my impression, though I could be wrong, is that rich countries are responsible for causing more wealth in poor ones, rather then less. They don't have the infrastucture to produce the hi tech goods that we do, so they are not missing any income there. In fact, we allow them to purchase items that wouldn't be on the market but for our existance, and these item make there economies more effiecient. "

the problem is that they would be much better if they could make those items themselves, but because of massive imports and lack of capital they can not. They can purchase anything, but it won't help their economy, only the economy of the productor nation, In fact the proximity of rich countries can also be bad for the economy, for example mexico and middle america suffer from massive american imports while most of the economy (and so most of the profits) are american and return to america. the same happens in Morocco or Romania for example, their products can not compete against european products.

"Most rich countries don't produce their own low-tech items. They either buy them from the poor countries, or at least produce them there, creating more employement. (Not that these are the best jobs in the world, but they are better then whatever alternative they may have.) This allows benefits poor countries. "

the problem is that rich countries rule the market and they make the price of low-tech items, A VERy low price (for example roasted coffee beans), the jobs created by this are not any better than the jobs created by own companies, very low wage (i saw it myself in united fruit company in guatemala).

"Poor countries typically are ones, who for one reason or another, fell behind a few years in production technology. Man has been on the planet a long time, for one country to be within 100 years of the production capability of another is really pretty remarkable, statistically. But imagine how inefficeint the U.S. was 100 years ago. Even a 20 year lag in production muturity means a distinct competitve disadvantage, considering the employment of electronics in modern production. "

the problem is poor countries in the current world-economy have big problems of reaching the levels of the rich countries, the system is not encouraging them to do so.
Russia for example, 12 years ago, had a little distance with western countries, today after 12 years of world-capitalism, the distance has become much bigger.
china adapted to the world economy, which is necessary to attract investment from rich countries (in that you are right) but on its own conditions, only companies offering hi-tech investment are allowed into China and free trade only with mutual agreements(so much american products in china versus so much chinese products in the us, wile most thirth world just have to open theoir economy without preconditions). It has worked much better than in Russia or eastern europe, and than in total free-market countries in latin america, asia or africa.

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo

china adapted to the world economy, which is necessary to attract investment from rich countries (in that you are right) but on its own conditions, only companies offering hi-tech investment are allowed into China and free trade only with mutual agreements(so much american products in china versus so much chinese products in the us, wile most thirth world just have to open theoir economy without preconditions). It has worked much better than in Russia or eastern europe, and than in total free-market countries in latin america, asia or africa.

Education, resources, investment and stability are essentials for developing country. A immediate democracy is bad for developing third world, because most of the developing world is under educated with illiterate of 70% or more. Stability means market must be stabilized without political interference.

The reason of successful chinese economy

1) investment
2) education
3) stability
4) chinese abroads-southeast asia, n. america
5) Historical values-chinese is good at trade and businesses for centuries, til the communist government.

[elke]

"ani znayut tchto ya evreyskiy"

Why Russian, Takeo? Just curious...

As far as the situation in FSU is concerned, the reason it's a mess is that while the educational level of the citizens is very high, most of them have no clue regarding life in a free society. This is the adjustment period: they will be OK in the end.

When I came to US in 1980, we lived in a Russian community in Brooklyn, NY. For the majority of people there - ourselves included - it was a long, tedious, difficult adjustment to even live in a one-family house rather than in an apartment building. And the structure, the laws, the possibilities were already in place. In Russia today, these institutions are still to be built and nobody really knows how to build them.

Also, many of the ills of today's Russia - graft, crime, etc. - were there before the collapse of the USSR as well. It simply wasn't reported on, because there was no one inside to report on it.

[Mediocrates]

in another thread he/she indicated that he/she is either a russian emmigre to france or his/her parents were

[Blue Moon]

Interesting stuff, ain't it ?

We could sit around for hours, days, weeks pondering what if's, pointing fingers, and wringing our hands. Hey, isn't that exactly what we be doin ??? Unfortunately, however, people are being, and continue to be slaughtered at this moment, as we and the media indulge in endless, self-gratifying pontification. At some point, we have to get up out of our chairs, throw our coats on, brave the cold, and get to work. That means facing reality.

Reality:
1. The vast majority of Israeli's, as well as American Jews, want peace. The vast majority of Israeli's would happily give up the West Bank and Gaza, in exchange for a stable, non-threatening, democratic Arab state in the West Bank. And, it makes good economical, as well as political sense.

2. At this particular point in time, those Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza not hell-bent on destroying Israel do not have the ability to thwart the martyr's from hell and their families, who would pack off their own children strapped with explosives to maim innocent civilians. Even if you believe that Arafat and Co.
did not (a) encourage, and/or (b) organize, and/or (c) finance the 60 or so homicide bomber attacks over the last 19 or so months, or the grenade and machine gun attacks, or the lynching of the Israeli soldiers and others (and, if you believe that pink elephants doing-cartwheels in the sky have special magical powers), the fact remains that the murders continue unabated. That's the bottom line, the murders continue. You can talk till your blue in the face giving me all of the excuses . . . it doesn't matter. The murders continue. Thus, once again - - let's just get to the "bottom line" here - - even if we assume the leaders of the West Bank and Gaza Arabs WANT to stop the attacks, they are powerless to do so. Leaders of Hamas and others have repeatedly stated time and time again, they want all of Israel, period. And, to top it off, the whole pile of you know what is being encouraged, organized and funded with the help of Arab countries, such as Iraq, Iran, Syrian, Lebanon, and, believe it or not, Saudi Arabia. These countries have been using the West Bank and Gaza Arabs as pawns in their "Destroy Isreal" chess-game for years and years.
- By the way, do you believe that Al-Queda and Bin Ladin have no relationship, whatsoever, to the terrorist organizations operating in the West Bank and Gaza ? Do you really believe that the ultimate goal of all of these Islamic fundamentalist-terrorist clubs is to give the West Bank Arabs their own country, and that once that is done, they will trade in their C-4, nails, rockets, machine guns, and flight-training manuals (missing, of course, the chapters on how to land . . .) in exchange for business suits and
college textbooks, and become investment bankers ???

So, to sum it up, the terrorist murders will continue even if the West Bank Arabs are given a state. Let's put it all together now (to the tune of "Imagine" by John Lennon, in the key of "Eb" - - a one, and a two, and a three, and a four . . .

The majority of Israel is willing to have an independant Arab state on the West Bank, but cannot, for security sake (think of Hamas with tanks, rockets, access to planes, chemicals, "dirty bombs, ect . . .) permit such to occur until the terrorist clubs are wiped out. Period.

If you don't get it yet, I will now dutifully pull the string and listen to you repeat the knee-jerk mantra: "occupation, occupation, occupation.
- (can you imagine a new Disneyland ride designed after "It's a Small World", where the little puppets from all over the world are singing in 80 different languages (including that cute little Dutch girl with the pigtails and wooden shoes):

Verse: "I'ts an O-cu-pation, a Sha-ron, sin.
I'ts a "massacre but don't look where we've
been . . . "
(you fill in the pre-chorus __________")


Chorus: It's Occupation, after all;
Occupation, after all;
Occupation after all;
it's a Sha-ron, sin . . ." )

Are we done singing yet ? Good, let's get back to reality.
3. Faced with absolute certainty of more terror attacks unless
the terrorist regimes in the West Bank, Gaza, Iraq, Iran, Syria,
Saudi Arabia are crusshed, there are (as I've stated in another post), only two alternatives for Isreali security.

The first one can be assisted by those Arabs who wake up, and face the reality:
Get rid of the terrorists, and we can have our own country.
Don't get rid of the terrorists, and we will continue to sing "It's
an Occupation" until we have to stop singing because the
Israelis are going to be pushed to the point where REAL
military force is used - - you know, the U.S. calls it "War".

So, the West Bank Arab supports in this forum would do much more for those innocent Arab civilians by organizing opposition to Arafat, Corrupt Inc. and the other terrorists (ooops, did I imply that Arafat, Corrupt Inc. was somehow linked to terrorists ?
I must apologize - - wait, Frank Sinatra is singing "New York, New York, and the pink elephants are doing a tango . . . ) and help establish a more stable regime that, hopefully someday soon, will permit real democratic elections (i.e. voting without fear of being executed by a member of Arafat, Corrupt Inc.), and provide real hope for the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza.

Gotta go. : )

[takeo]

no problem, i tought vic was russian.
i think in Russia it's not a transitional period as it is in for example czech republic or eastern Germany. Russian economy is now on a LOWER level than before, even after 12 years, which is not normal for a transitional period, and even if there is some progress under Putin it doesn't seem to change into a western country but has more in common with the thirth world.
of course you can not compare your situation with a whole country, what you experienced and my parents too was a culture shock, but Russia is still Russia, it is not because it became capitalist that the whole society and mentality will change, Russia will not change into another france or america.

i think the reason for the chinese success are not so much the chinese abroad or chinese mentality (untill the 40's one of the pooreest countries in the world) but a very succesfull economic policy since the 70's.


"the murders continue unabated. That's the bottom line, the murders continue"

yes, so does the settlement-policy and the occupation, and israel's ruling party just said it will nEVER accept a palestinian state.

"And, to top it off, the whole pile of you know what is being encouraged, organized and funded with the help of Arab countries, such as Iraq, Iran, Syrian, Lebanon, and, believe it or not, Saudi Arabia. These countries have been using the West Bank and Gaza Arabs as pawns in their "Destroy Isreal" chess-game for years and years. "

Syria, SA and egypt have proposed a plan for peace which included the recognition of israel, israel didn't even bother to discuss the plan...

"By the way, do you believe that Al-Queda and Bin Ladin have no relationship, whatsoever, to the terrorist organizations operating in the West Bank and Gaza ? "

that's at least the opinion of most middle-eastern analysts and the white House, but if you have better sources...

"Do you really believe that the ultimate goal of all of these Islamic fundamentalist-terrorist clubs is to give the West Bank Arabs their own country, and that once that is done, they will trade in their C-4, nails, rockets, machine guns, and flight-training manuals (missing, of course, the chapters on how to land . . .) in exchange for business suits and
college textbooks, and become investment bankers ??? "

some will, some won't. those who won't will be persecuted for brining instability in a peacefull country(as Islamic extremists are currently persecuted in Egypt or syria)

"The first one can be assisted by those Arabs who wake up, and face the reality:
Get rid of the terrorists, and we can have our own country.
Don't get rid of the terrorists, and we will continue to sing "It's
an Occupation" until we have to stop singing because the
Israelis are going to be pushed to the point where REAL
military force is used - - you know, the U.S. calls it "War". "

the thirth possibility would be israel negociating to end the occupation in exchange for an end to terrorism. occupation is for the palestinians as important or more important than terrorism for israel.

Again, no proove that Arafat even supported terrorism against innocent people while it is certain that israel is involved in car-bombings, etc.
If you want peace than stop blaming Arafat and start negociations with the elected leader of the palestinians about the end of the war without pre-conditions.
If israel will not negociate palestinians will not (or can not) stop the armed struggle.

[Vic]

Takeo is right about me: I grew up in Moscow - greetings from the Commies, NewsGuy , hi, elke (I have written this in the "your background" thread and deleted the post shortly afterwards - it was much too long, with unimportant details). I've missed the "Russian" post, given the speed this thread grows with.

Vy by uzh vyuchili russkiy kak sleduyet, nu kto zhe pishet "chto ya yevreyskiy"? A zaodno i angliyskiy. I uspokoytes'. Iz tekh, komu vy pytayetes' dokasat', chto vy khoroshiy chelovek, nesmotrya na to, chto vy yevrey, etot forum vsye ravno pochti nikto ne chitayet

Takeo's background surprised me, as well as - in this context - some of the replies to his/her posts.

[Batman]

Before anything is done the United Nations must reform to represent ALL the people and that means JEWS and ISRAEL too.
Otherwise the greatest farse-conspiracy organization ever created will continue to dance to a tune far worse than Springtime for Hitler!

Consider this:

The United Nations must be held accountable. The world cannot be silent and continue to let this organization assume a position of world leadership, using our tax money ($11 billion annually by US !) to support it, with its center location in New York City, while continually declaring a political war against Israel and supporting terror against Israel.

After the most recent MASSACRE in Rishon Letzion which killed 16 people and wounded 60, the U.N. had the audacity to CONDEMN ISRAEL the very next day. The vote was 74-4 with 54 abstentions. There were no votes condemning Palestinian terrorism.

Why they still have not called an emergency "security council" meeting about the MASSACRE in Israel? Didn't they call several such meetings to help their Palestinian terrorists? In fact, we want to know WHY there has never been an emergency meeting after Jews have been massacred by the friends of the U.N.? While on the topic, we don't recall Mr. Annan calling for an emergency meeting after 9/11. Doesn't the U.S. taxpayer give $11 billion to this corrupt organization annually?

Until the U.N. calls an emergency meeting of the security council to condemn the MASSACRE of Jews, VOTES on it with an unconditional resolution, and sends a team to inquire how these massacres took place and what human rights violations were committed by the PA, it is violating all that it is supposed to stand for. And, by the way, why hasn't anyone heard from the U.N. Mideast "peace envoy", Terje Larsen, about this?

Confronted with evidence of illegal Palestinian mines, mortars and missiles, no U.N. official questioned how it was that bomb factories could exist in U.N.-managed refugee camps. Either the U.N. officials were unaware of the bomb factories -- a fact that would suggest utter incompetence -- or more likely, the U.N. employees simply turned a blind eye.

If the United Nations is to be reflecting the values of peace, justice and unity, we must gain momentum and grow in numbers to reflect our disgust with the present betrayal of these common human values.

URGE THE UN TO INVESTIGATE PALESTINIAN TERROR IMMEDIATELY
Call Fred and his staff and demand to know what criminal logic was behind this. Yes, Annan issued some tepid and banal "condemnation" for the media, but frankly, it just does not cut it. Annan only minces words when Jewish lives are taken, but he is very graphic when condemning Israel.

United Nations: - Fred Ekherd (Annan's spokesman)
PH# 212-963-5128 FAX# 212-963-7055 EMAIL: inquiries@un.org

[takeo]

izvinite ya nimnogo govoru po-ruski, no ya starayus nauchitsya, i ya ne starayus nichigo dokazat

[takeo]

The UN is condamning israel because its violates the UN-charter, the geneva-conventions, etc. all laws who were not made specifically against israel. Israel is not above the law, if it is ready to agree to observe those laws and stop occupation and negociate about the etnic cleansed people, than there will be more goodwill for israel.
It also condamned palestinian violence against civilians, and it condamned the terrorism on 11/9.
But those acts are committed by terrorist groups, while israel acted as a state.
The UN acted much worse against countries as Iraq (or yougoslavia) who committed similar violations as israel, but got punished much harder.
So before shouting the un is biased look why the un is condamning israel...

[Skogan]

I think Takeo is closer to right on this then most of the posters want to admit, (except the part about Iraq's violations being similar to Israel. I don't find any support for that in either quanity or quality of the violations.) Israel may have good reasons for reacting the way it does, but that does not mean it is acting consitantly with international law.


Skogan

[Pathfinder]

What is he right about? Putting Russian posts on an english only forum? Or is it the "etnic cleansing"? Where did that come from? Which Geneva conventions did they violate that were not acts of self-defense? Give me specific events, time, place and detail and we will debate it. He just continues to spew out vague accusations and rhetoric so his conversations become a never ending:

You did it!
Did not!
You did it!
Did not!
You did it!
Did not!
You did it!
Did not!
You did it!
Did not!
You did it!
Did not!
You did it!
Did not!

Kinda Pointless.

Skogan if you agree with him, which of his rhetoric do you agree with? Give us a specific act or event and we will debate. How about the "etnic cleansing." Give us an example of that.

[Skogan]

My agreement with Takeo was on the points he made in the post above mine. My last sentence, that israel may have good reason to act the way they do, was pointing to the fact that the best arguements in favor of Israel's actions don't come from international law, but from its need to survive.

While the U.N. does critcize Israel, I don't think the source is that they love the arabs and hate the jews. I agree with Takeo that the main source of criticism comes from the violation of international law. That will be criticised, even if you can justify it on the need to survive.

The second point the Takeo makes, that I agree with, is that modern countries are always held to a higher standard then despotic regimes. Not many criticised the afgans for killing U.S. soldiers, but did criticise the U.S. for the relatively leniant treatment of it's cuban detainees. Does that make it right? Maybe not, but the source is not anti-israel bias, as above posters would suggest.

I also agree with Takeo that U.N. did infact condem the 9/11 attack and (I believe, but am not certain) the use of suicide bombers.

You ask which violation did Israel make that wasn't an act of self defense. The geneva convention applies, even if it is an act of self defense. It was written presupposing a conflict in which people would be defending themselves.

I really believe that Israel's best arguement is necessity, not based on international legal standards. But if you want to debate I'll throw one out.

Defend the Israel's continue failure to allow the Right of Return on the basis that it is consistant with:

1. Customary International Law,
2.UN Resolution 194, which specifically applies the right of return to the Palestinian refugees. Paragraph 11 states "that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."
( Israel's admittance to the UN as a member state, through Resolution 273, was conditioned on acceptance and implementation of Resolution 194. Therefore, Israel is bound, as a condition of membership in the UN, to implement 194 and to facilitate the return of the Palestinian refugees.)
3. Geneva conention's assumption that the right of return exist.

Once again, im not saying that Israel SHOULD let all palistinians return. I'm saying that the legal defense against it is weak.


Skogan
Skogan

[Gatorade]

Is Resolution 194 still recognized?

I only see 242 and 338 being mentioned in the newspapers.

Resolution 242 requires Israel to work toward "achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem"

Why wouldn't creation of an independent Palestinian state meet this requirement?