AT LAST Straight talk from kerry

[minusthejihad]

Oh not about the French? You seemed to be just talking about them O_o.

I used one as an example in response to a French poster. I appreciate your interest in my post.

Again, why trust the judgement of someone who seems to deranged and stupid (in a practical sense). That fool is just believing what the Republicans are saying about John Kerry and liking it. It's not the truth. I trust MY beliefs, not those of any others.

I'm glad you learned to be an individual. Welcome to the club.

That someone dispicable supports a candidate is no reason to not support the candidate. That's lazy arguing and expected from a party who cant argue the issues themselves.

Who do you mean by party?

[I am David]

I'm glad you learned to be an individual. Welcome to the club.

Poor minusthejihad can't answer my argument so he makes some vague insult that I wasn't an individual before, but am now because I made an argument that ripped his apart. Yay.

[minusthejihad]

Congratulations. You won! Wooooptidoooo. Now quit jockin.

[ivrydov]

The civilian deaths in Iraq are now running at perhaps 30,000. Under the former sanctions, wild figures were thrown out and in a famous 1996 CBS News, then respectable, interview, Madeleine Albright, secretary of state, was asked if she thought the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children from the sanctions was justifiable. "We think the price was worth it," she replied.

These figures are problematical, since Saddam seemed to have counted anyone who died as a victim of the sanctions and many anti-sanctions people just quoted verbatim. But the record is horrendous enough; perhaps 100,000 children died from the sanctions who would be alive otherwise.

The points are perspective and proportion. Kerry is saying, if I understand him correctly and who does? bring the UN back into Iraq. The UN is responsible for far more deaths of Iraqi civilians than the U.S. which has been in a rootin' tootin' shootin' war and that doesn't count all the victims of the ubiquitous Saddam oppression during the same period. Without the war things would have gone on as before, and in the end, not a chance for democracy or at least freedom from the threat of the torture chambers for most citizens. Sure if Kerry can build a better mousetrap than Bush he should unveil it, but if the brand UN is stamped on it, he's going to make things far worse -- and not just for the Iraqis because the Arabs believed the high figures and that's why many thought the Americans got what was coming to them at 9/11. Learn from history or repeat it, did someone say?

[Mediocrates]

Ah the great black hole of missing policy. What is it people would have the President, any president, do? As if 51% of the 48% of the electorate in the US can put the person, the one person, into office who will singlehandedly wave a magic wand and toss out the entirety of all US policy, all the programs in operation and the people operating them and like a kiss from the tooth fairy all the Iraqis wake up with a new job, a pony for their kids and 100,000 frequent flyer miles.

To draw a comparison, it takes a new CEO about 3 years to turn around a failing company. So what success criteria do folks on either side of the argument use. I'd really like to hear some reality for a change. Did you know for example that Japan didn't have a new constitution until 1948 and didn't have elections till 1949? Was that soon enough? What [b]are[/i] the success criteria in Iraq and what kind of timeline do you think is possible? 2 years? 5 years? 20? Even in Saint Europe former Soviet client states in the east are struggling - like East Germany - more than 15 years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, without a shot being fired I'd add. So is fifteen years a good benchmark for Iraq? Should we suspend all fingerpointing till the Fall of 2018?

[Olivier]

Even in (..)Europe former Soviet client states in the east are struggling - like East Germany - more than 15 years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, without a shot being fired I'd add. So is fifteen years a good benchmark for Iraq? Should we suspend all fingerpointing till the Fall of 2018?

Europe will succeed. It will take a generation, troops and a lot of commitment and money - including giving them a say in our government.


The US in iraq are just doing 10% of what they should do to succeed. So either the US comes in seriously and do the job - but it turns out they won't - or they just get the hell out and try to help from the outside with international backing. Maybe Bush will initiate that with the international conference on iraq.. or maybe he'll keep one behave as the idiot we know all too well.

Right now every day of occupation just makes the situation worst.

[Gabriel]

The US in iraq are just doing 10% of what they should do to succeed. So either the US come in seriously and do the job - but it turns out they won't - or they just get the hell out and try to help from the outside.
Right now every day of occupation just makes the situation worst.

I said it in another thread, the US just getting the hell out would be DISASTEROUS. Only someone with the Peter Pan philosophy (think happy thoughts) would think any viable governemnt or stability would result in everyone pulling out and trying to help from outside.

[Olivier]

I said it in another thread, the US just getting the hell out would be DISASTEROUS.

Indeed. Lebanon to the nth power.


Now the more the US wait, the worst the situation gets. So there is no alternative to getting out fast.

The question is what damage control and how?

[Gabriel]

Now the more the US wait, the worst the situation gets. So there is no alternative to getting out fast.

Over here in the US, even the most anti-war democrates (except Kusinich, which he's a loon anyways) EVERYONE agrees we can't leave Iraq in it's current state. People may have different plans on how to get it to a good state, but no one thinks we should just cut our losses and leave. Once again that would only result in Gulf War 3. MIght as well stay and make sure that doens't happen.

[Timere]

Europe will succeed. It will take a generation, troops and a lot of commitment and money - including giving them a say in our government.

The US in iraq are just doing 10% of what they should do to succeed. So either the US comes in seriously and do the job (...)

Haha, sorry now, but this is the talk you get from one of the "big" and "wealthy" European countries.

Let say... Bulgaria. There was a strict communist regime, under which the country became a disgrace of it's formal self, under which all the people we're robbed of their money, housing, jobs, property - some lost their lives because they supported the King the communist banished from the country. The first democratically fair election was held in 1992. (Somewhat two years after the comminist regime fell) Somehow, the first president managed to make things even worse and it resulted in an economic collapse, high unemployment and more people killed. The country still isn't on it's feet.

There wasn't European money when the people needed it, I can honestly say that EU barely did 10% of what they should have done. Yes, the money is flowing now, but the economy got better more on Bulgarian effort than on EU help (for ex. FAR or so). Oh, Bulgaria is MAYBE joining the EU in 2007, what say in what government? US has given great amounts of money for stabilizing Bulgaria. Where's the EU money in Iraq?

Now, on these early steps: US is doing/will do more for Iraq than EU did for most of the countries that were revealed from under the "Iron Curtain". US shouldn't redraw from Iraq, way too risky. Two years before a fair democratic election in a country that never knew true democracy is WAY TOO positive thinking. Stabilization of that country will take, what, 15-20 years minimum? It will involve an economic collapse, I'm pretty sure of this - I hope the rest of the world will be there to support Iraq then.

Do you even understand what has to be done in Iraq? They have to literally reform the whole country. Constitution, Laws, Reconstruction, the country can't even be called industrialized. To do, or to start, these things "occupation" is needed. At this point it seems all the work is laid on the US... If they have trouble doing these things, I fully understand.

By the way, how did EU help Kosovo again? I seem to forget these things... (sarcasm)

Thumbs up for "Guy", that post of yours would be the most hilarious thing I've seen in weeks. (I'd still vote for Kerry, though)

[danholo]

Basically, I'm happy there are people like Olivier posting anti-Bush propaganda. All it does is help Bush.

This is true. Propaganda works both ways. Movies like Fahrenheit 9/11 only help Bush because most of his supporters won't go see it and will only read negative reviews about it. Of course it will make people who dislike Bush even more pissed. I haven't seen it yet but I don't have to. I know enough about Bush that has convinced me not to vote for him in the least. Unfortunately I'm not even registered to vote and the absentee chance is GONE. I just have to hope for the best. And I'm pretty sure my hopes won't cut it.

[Mediocrates]

Do you think that anyone who is genuinely undecided should be allowed to walk around w/o their bike helmet?

[minusthejihad]

This is true. Propaganda works both ways. Movies like Fahrenheit 9/11 only help Bush because most of his supporters won't go see it and will only read negative reviews about it. Of course it will make people who dislike Bush even more pissed. I haven't seen it yet but I don't have to. I know enough about Bush that has convinced me not to vote for him in the least. Unfortunately I'm not even registered to vote and the absentee chance is GONE. I just have to hope for the best. And I'm pretty sure my hopes won't cut it.

Let me be the first to thank you and probably about another 30,000 kids that will forget to vote on November 2. Lets just get it over with already. There should be some riots in Pennsylvania if Kerry loses, at least that's what Edwards gigantic wife thinks.

But seriously, I went to a fashion show over the weekend and my knee-jerk liberal friends and their unemployed rockstar, photographer, and model friends can't understand how I can be such a non-conformist and not support Kerry like every single other person in the building. Boy, for a group of people who want to stand out and be different, they sure share the same opinion. They seriously think that because I won't vote for Kerry, I have somehow affirmed that I am a Republican. Very sad logic coming from our "enlightened liberals". Guess thats why I quit that team too. Watching Michael Moore as a suicide bomber in Team America cheered me up though.

[philingraham]

Amazing, or is it...?

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover1.html

[Emunah]

Do you think that anyone who is genuinely undecided should be allowed to walk around w/o their bike helmet?

The forum won't allow me to use enough emoticons to express the length and depth of my laughter!!! LOL

I think they should be quarantined until AFTER November 2nd! LOL