US Presidential Debates

[minusthejihad]

If the "uninformed vote" controls the election then I'm afraid that Bush will win. That's according to my point of view.

HA! Just look to any entertainment personality you like in film, music, television, or other popular culture medium and tell me who they are voting for and whether they have problems annoucing it to the world and get back to me.

Dimwits and droupouts are still a vital part of our democracy.

Why?

It's the Religious Right, the core of Bush's support, that is ultimately "uninformed"...This must present some problems for an agnostic/atheist such as yourself !

Hey, you won't find an arguement from me there. But I'm not voting for them or as a member of that group, just as I hope you do the same for the thousands of American communists and anarchists that are voting for your candidate. And frankly, after meeting both many lefties and righties throughout my life, whether they are wrong or misled, I find that many religious righters are a lot more informed than your run of the mill college town slacker activist. I ran with those cats at MSU and I can't wipe that petchuli and dirt smell off still today.

Haven't seen "World Police" so can't comment yet.

Me neither. But I came across this gem: http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/14561

[NewsGuy]

Come on people, Lurch ain't so bad.

During the entire debate I kept on thinking about your Lurch comparison. It really made his performance hilarious when viewed that way.

Lurch Lives!

[NewsGuy]

Hey NewsGuy, do you think it would be a good thing if a future Supreme Court overturned Roe vs Wade ?

No.

I do not agree with many of the Republican Party's views, even though I vote Republican for lack of a better choice.

I do support a woman's right to choose, and I hope that Roe v Wade remains the law of the land.

[minusthejihad]

me too!

Newsguy,

Thanks, but I think Allahpundit http://www.allahpundit.com/ coined that. IMBW

[philingraham]

[QUOTE=minusthejihad]HA! Just look to any entertainment personality you like in film, music, television, or other popular culture medium and tell me who they are voting for and whether they have problems annoucing it to the world and get back to me.

Arnold, Tom Nugent, Dennis Miller, Whoopie Goldberg, Tom Hanks...




Why?

Because they are citizens of the USA and at least deserve the respect of hearing about their experience.




Hey, you won't find an arguement from me there. But I'm not voting for them or as a member of that group, just as I hope you do the same for the thousands of American communists and anarchists that are voting for your candidate. And frankly, after meeting both many lefties and righties throughout my life, whether they are wrong or misled, I find that many religious righters are a lot more informed than your run of the mill college town slacker activist. I ran with those cats at MSU and I can't wipe that petchuli and dirt smell off still today.

We disagree about what it means to be informed. As dirty as those cats at MSU were, they at least are struggling to make sense of their world. I can't say this about The Campus Crusade for Christ. For sure they're clean. But they're a pack of sheep,accepting the Word of God thru their "facilitators". I'd rather be a dirty hippie than a sheep being led to slaughter...These sheep are Bush's "core".

[philingraham]

I do support a woman's right to choose, and I hope that Roe v Wade remains the law of the land.

Kudos...

[minusthejihad]

[QUOTE=philingraham]

HA! Just look to any entertainment personality you like in film, music, television, or other popular culture medium and tell me who they are voting for and whether they have problems annoucing it to the world and get back to me.

Arnold, Tom Nugent, Dennis Miller, Whoopie Goldberg, Tom Hanks...




Why?

Because they are citizens of the USA and at least deserve the respect of hearing about their experience.




Hey, you won't find an arguement from me there. But I'm not voting for them or as a member of that group, just as I hope you do the same for the thousands of American communists and anarchists that are voting for your candidate. And frankly, after meeting both many lefties and righties throughout my life, whether they are wrong or misled, I find that many religious righters are a lot more informed than your run of the mill college town slacker activist. I ran with those cats at MSU and I can't wipe that petchuli and dirt smell off still today.

We disagree about what it means to be informed. As dirty as those cats at MSU were, they at least are struggling to make sense of their world. I can't say this about The Campus Crusade for Christ. For sure they're clean. But they're a pack of sheep,accepting the Word of God thru their "facilitators". I'd rather be a dirty hippie than a sheep being led to slaughter...These sheep are Bush's "core".

1. Whooppie was fired from Slim Fast for talking about the Pres as a vagina in front of thousands of people. She openly has BDS and is voting for Kerry.

2. I don't know Tom Hanks' political views.

3. Besides Dennis Miller, Kid Rock, Alice Cooper and about 10 country singers, you will find the majority of entertainment personalities are on the liberal end of the spectrum. But they're not even my main point. My main point is that every time I go out to see a music show or walk down the street, there are people, very uninformed people openly prosetlyzing for the Kerry campaign. I have yet to be approached by any Bush fans to this day. In fact, its so not cool to like Bush or vote against Kerry among the younger generations that many are very quite about telling people they're voting for Bush. I love the looks on my friend's or aquaintences faces when I tell them, "No I don't like Bush. I just dislike Kerry more." - its as if I signed a deal with the devil or that they are ready for an enema.

4. I didn't ask you whether we should give slackers and dimwits attention. I asked you why they were important to our society. In the grand scheme of thisngs, they're not, and I don't think that people should take advantage of their ignorance for political gains, nor do I think they should help in deciding my future and yours, when people like us are obviously the better representatives for that job. But in the end, it will go to the electoral college anyway, and hopefully those peeps will vote intelligently.

5. I don't agree that parroting conspiracy theories and assigning blame to the man, the Jooos, Bush, the republicans, the order of skull and bones, the builderbergs, the trilateral committee, starbucks, nike, the illuminati, ronald mcdonald, cheney, elmo are examples of "making sense of their worlds". Look, I think both groups are lemmings and I'm inpartial to either group. I've seen religion turn many people's lives around in a positive way and I'm also seem brainwashed bible thumpers as well. About the only benefit I've seen in joining a commune is to get by without working, polygamy (I don't object necessarily to any of these by the way), free dope, and armchair activism that occassionally gets you laid by a girl who doesn't shave her pits. Informed. Maybe. More informed. Porbably not.

[Mira~]

I'm sorry you have such a simplified world view that is so black and white. I feel for you, I really do. I feel for all of you partisans that really think your guy is god's gift to America.

Its really sad to see educated people fall into the trap of using party slogans to refute arguements on either side.

What's funny, is that the same people who think that the President of the United States is the ACTUAL decision maker on everything that happens in this country are most likely the same people who don't give it a second thought when this same person who has to have his finger on the pulse, button, strings, etc. of America is busy flying from speaking engagement to speaking engagement. Maybe the evil Jewish Cabal really does have the control in this country. Its a bummer I can't buy in.

And as far as getting away from Saudi Oil, that is a function of economics and time, not who is in office. Of course, I haven't seen a word from you about Bush's Hydrogen car plan. I assume its all a sham and evil and BS anyway.

By the way, I'll pass on your "Big Deal!" words onto my family in Israel. I'm sure they'll be glad to know that.

Who has a simplified world view now? I'm not a Democrat and I never said that I love Kerry. I said I am becoming more confident in the guy, but his "plans" still fall short of the type of comprehensive world view that I would like to see articulated by a candidate. I've discussed topics like energy conservation elsewhere on this board and it's going to take more than what either candidate has proposed.

[KettleWhistle]

AJ; Clinton's not running but if you listen to hate radio enough you might think he is.

I don't listen to political radio at all. It is just like listening to the presidential debates--you don't get to learn anything about the real causes of the issue, and instead get slammed with distortions, party lines, and vitriolic condemnation of the opponents.

To me, the actions of Clinton's presidency epitomize Democrat's attitudes towards Israel. Sure, Kerry may not be as bad, but that doesn't mean he'll be good, despite what brown-nosers at AIPAC may be saying.

[Mediocrates]

I really need someone to point to something concrete. You people act like the US of Bush is the last bastion between Israel and the beturbaned horde coming over the hill.


As it turns out even the sort of sidelong look the Israelis gave to the Iraq war in that it removed a strategic threat from Israel is probably misplaced. On the other hand the 'Roadmap' is still the Saudi plan, the Koby Mandell act is still not passed, The US still isn't doing anything about Hezbollah, they're still reducing non military to Israel aid in equal measure to the cost of building new homes in Yesha, they haven't suggested anything in the way of concrete assistance either for or against the withdrawal from Gaza, they still haven't done anything about Jon Pollard, they still haven't pressed the Syrians to do anything as regards Israel (only Lebanon and a vaguely worded 'terrorism'), they refuse to acknowledge where the capital of the country actually is, they continue to take no action against Arafat who had admitted his role in kidnapping and murdering two American diplomats, let alone the 40-50 US American citizens who have been murdered by terrorism in Israel.

And let's face it, let's be brutally honest. The current administration sees Israel at best a niche issue to their apocalyptic Christian base. Politically, Israel is embarassment for them. A difficulty that gets in the way of their relationships with the Saudis. And with Iraq progressing the way it has, Israel has a diminshed geopolitical or military role in the region.

Not that we expect them to make large concrete steps. But on balance this 'great savior' that is the current adminstration is way off. What will Kerry do? I honestly don't know perhaps no better no worse but don't point to something that not's there and say "see how great this is", cause it's not.

If all Jewish Americans and Israeli Americans want is tough talk then fine, we're good to go. But I've been waiting for something a little less abstract than goodwill.

[Emunah]

Let me get this "global test" issue out of the way...the Federalist Papers had something to say about this and I think it makes sense. The "Muslim" world "global test" is no more helpful than the coalition like Nicaragua sending troops or the Marshall Islands support. If you are going to wage war you need countries with large standing ARMIES so they can fight with you. That's just good common sense, but I'll let the Federalist papers speak for themselves on this:

Federalist Papers 63:

"An attention to the judgment of other nations is important to every government for two reasons: the one is, that, independently of the merits of any particular plan or measure, it is desirable, on various accounts, that it should appear to other nations as the offspring of a wise and honorable policy; the second is, that in doubtful cases, particularly where the national councils may be warped by some strong passion or momentary interest, the presumed or known opinion of the impartial world may be the best guide that can be followed. What has not America lost by her want of character with foreign nations; and how many errors and follies would she not have avoided, if the justice and propriety of her measures had, in every instance, been previously tried by the light in which they would probably appear to the unbiased part of mankind?"

My first criteria for anything is jobs...I don't care whether anyone thinks the president can do anything about it or not. I don't care if my financial broker had an accident in his building, computer glitches, or some other excuse for not making a decent and ethical return on my investment. I only care about results and there are no results coming from Bush, so my decision is to fire him and hire someone that I think will do a better job. You see, if I don't have a job, then I am not safe, and I can't help anyone else including Israel or the Kurds because I can't even pay my WZO dues or belong to a synagogue. I am considering making Aliyah because I honestly think I'm fed up with trying to find a job, keep getting more education and having nothing to show for it at all. At least if I make Aliyah I can give my damn tax money to something I believe in, and I can probably find a job with English language skills (now I just need to work on that Hebrew right).

My second criteria is Israel and the Arabs. Bush took the Arab vote in 2000 and they all came to Kerry to plead the palestinian case and Kerry didn't go for it. I'm proud of him because the pressure was immense. I can't stand the left or the right on this issue because both sides are anti-semites at the extremes. In several television programs this week I have seen the Arab Zogby people complain that Kerry had a chance but he blew it over Israel...well good!! Then I saw a couple of "undecided" voters in pre/post debate conversation who said they were leaning toward Bush because Kerry is to the right of Bush on the "palestinians" and at least Bush claims to be the first president to call publically for a "palestinian" state. I don't think either Bush or Kerry is going to force Israel to do anything that Israel doesn't want to do because if that were true those leftist nuts would have already convinced Kerry/Edwards and they haven't. Bush gets too much campaign money from the Arabs and he's too cozy with the Saudis. I hear that James Baker (Bush Sr's attorney, and the guy that said "screw the jews, they don't vote for us anyway), is now defending the Saudi government against the victims of 911 that are suing the Saudis. That's the same James Baker that represents "W" too, so no love lost there.

Third, I really, really, like Kerry. I find his style a lot more bearable and I think he is very smart and will actually be able to win the war in Iraq. I think we need those two divisions he wants to add, and we need to put more emphasis on homeland security and border control. The president has had four years and he still hasn't done the right thing about the security issues in the USA. He can scream "liberal" "taxes" and "flip-flop" all he wants, he had a Republican congress and he has nothing to show for it but a mess in Iraq that indicates a serious "groupthink" problem in the White House. The CIA is demoralized and mad at him, the pentagon is mad at him, and that can't help any of us (forget about the state dept...stupid people there anyway). Yes, I agree Kerry looks like he was chopped off of Mt. Rushmore (or lurch, that's true too) but Abe Lincoln had those chiseled features too, and I think he did a great job. Bush is just not up to the job and he does look like a chimp! He is mean spirited and acts like a dry drunk looking for a barfight. Giving him, Cheney and Rumfeld another four years is pretty frightening given their inability to see reality and deal with it. All they ever do is consider the best case and ignore all evidence to the contrary.

So that's why my vote is going to Kerry/Edwards. I find it difficult to believe that Kerry could screw anything up in four years that we couldn't correct; of course, I didn't think Bush could screw it up this bad either, but he did. Also, it will be really nice to have a boring president who doesn't make a lot of news, doesn't meet ONLY with the Republicans on Tuesdays (like Cheney does) and actually thinks he might be representing all of the US rather than just his own Party. Truthfully though, I don't want to hear a lot from him...no crisis news broadcasts, no embarrassing newsconferences, and please dear god no more foreign leaders visiting and looking like they stepped into some surreal world where a man with that much power slaps them on their backs, mangles their names, scripts their speeches for them and acts like a general jackass doing a nervous photo-op. I really can't take one more day of Bush making an idiot out of the US or lying as if SOME of us don't know anything and he and his administration are the only ones "enlightened". Maybe a large part of Texas doesn't understand the issues, but the US is NOT Texas. George Bush is free to go back to Texas and do stand up comedy or run the place, but he is not the guy the country needs right now to run the whole freeking country or world.

Some of you disagree, but believe me I've thought long and hard on this, and we only have two choices...we need a new administration in order to revive our chances in the world and in the country.

[philingraham]

Good post, Emunah ! Tough times require tough choices. Good luck to you in Israel and keep sayin what you think !

[Guy]

How many of them are Americans who can vote?

The article doesn't mention it, but my guess is -- relatively few.

I beleive that many US voters really support Israel, so some of them
might be affected by the clear preference Israelis feel for Bush, and by
revelation of the dangers that Kerry presidency will bring for Israel.

I don't know how to communicate this important message to US voters,
and would appreciate any help on how to publish this information better.

(No Israeli statesman will ever risk endorsing a US presidential candidate.
The media is clearly reluctant even to address this kind of argument.)

[philingraham]

Exactly what are the dangers a Kerry Presidency would mean to Israel ?

[Guy]

Exactly what are the dangers a Kerry Presidency would mean to Israel ?

The dangers stem from Kerry's resolve to use the immense US influence over
Israel to promote his understanding of harmony and peace among nations.

Kerry's vision means 3 things: appeasement, appeasement and appeasement.
And the best appeasement is cutting off pieces of Israel until nothing left.

This is what Kerry said in an interview with CNN/TIME:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS....situations.tm/

"They [the Bush Administration] haven't even engaged in a legitimate effort
to try to really transform the ability of Israel to find a legitimate entity
to negotiate with."

Here is a translation of this phrase from Kerry-speak:

"They [the Bush Administration] haven't" means "US should have"
"even engaged in a legitimate effort to" means ...
"try to really transform the ability of" means "to force"
"Israel to find" after all searches fail means "Israel to continue"
"a legitimate entity" can't be any other means "Arafat's men"
"to negotiate with" an euphemism, really means "to give in to"

After joining the right-hand parts in the correct order, here is the result:

"US should have forced Israel to continue giving in to Arafat's men."