Critical Knesset Vote on Disengagement

[NewsGuy]

Today, the Israeli parliament (Knesset) will vote on Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement plan.

Under the plan, Israel will use military force against its own citizens to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip of all its Jewish residents. The IDF will be instructed to carry out the ethnic cleansing while under terrorist fire, as Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israeli suburbs. Israel will also not receive any reciprocal actions from the Palestinians.

According to the plan, Israel will hand over thousands of homes, agricultural resources, and infrastructure to be occupied by Hamas members and other Palestinians.

Hamas has declared that its terrorist attacks have led to the Israeli withdrawal, as the IDF and people of Israel have been defeated by Palestinian suicide bombers and various terrorist attacks. Hamas also promised to use the evacuated homes and farming land as staging areas for future terrorist attacks on Israeli population centers.

Sharon is backed by Leftist parties and has refused calls from the people of Israel and from his own Likud party members to hold a national referendum on the disengagement plan.

Sharon has referred to the vote as "fateful" for Israel.

[sharonbn]

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

[Mediocrates]

You had about 8 years to show real progress. And?

[Justcurious]

This news just came in:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in623509.shtml

[minusthejihad]

There is already a thread on this started by Newsguy, please merge these two.

[KettleWhistle]

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

Begin was a weak leader. Shamir has done some good things, but mishandled even more. He should've settled the territories with Soviet alim. Netanyahu is the Israeli version of the Slick Willy (Clinton)--a selfserving politician. Sharon, like I said, is just an old man.

Today is truly a sad day in Jewish history.

[Justcurious]

There is already a thread on this started by Newsguy, please merge these two.

Yes, I thought this thread on the feelings before the vote was close, but it was not on the result, in fact.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7156

Do as you please!

[eyl]

The form may be the Left's but I wouldn't trust them with the execution.

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

[minusthejihad]

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

You sound just like Deepak Chopra on Dennis Miller last night. Its always so easy for the "thinkers" to come up with all the solutions that always work in theory, but its people on the ground protecting your arse that have to face reality every day.

[danholo]

Well, the Knesset okayed the plan so well have to see what the concequences are. It could be Sharon's head, literally. There are true crazies around there.

[KettleWhistle]

Well, the Knesset okayed the plan so well have to see what the concequences are. It could be Sharon's head, literally. There are true crazies around there.

Unlikely, because it will not do anything to change this plan. But I wouldn't mind if somebody blew up the atrocity on top of the Temple Mount.

[NewsGuy]

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

Not really.

The centerist solution, which is that there is no negotiating with terrorists, is so far the only effective solution even if it is not yet perfected.

Let's not forget that Israel has tried the Leftist solution, which was to give the Palestinians huge chunks of the land to control independently, and the only result was the Palestinians escalating their Jihad, building up a weapons manufacturing infrastructure and mass-murdering more than a thousand innocent Jews. In fact, the Palestinians never used their independence for anything constructive or peaceful.

So, after the Leftist failure to pacify arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat despite Barak's best efforts, Sharon was elected by a landslide to deal forcefully with the latest Palestinian Jihad war of extermination of the Jews.

There has never been a successful Leftist approach to the Palestinian problem. And, in truth, a limited military solution is not successful either, although the broader the military action, the more of the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure has been destroyed, and we no longer are seeing daily suicide bombings as was the case just a few years ago.

As for the ethnic cleansing in Gaza, it is a huge mistake that will be irreversable. The main problems are that Israel will again be perceived as being defeated by terrorism and running scared under terrorist fire. And, juts as importantly, Israel is missing a historic opportunity ot demand reciprocity from the Palestinians -- for every Jewish settlement that is evacuated, there should be one Arab settlement that is evacuated in return. But under this plan, the Jews lose.

Tell me, do you think that ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip will make Israel more secure?

I don't think so. In fact, we know that the same houses used to raise Jewish children will now become property of Arafat and the Hamas to manufacture more weapons to be used to mass-murder those very same Jewish children in whose houses the terrorists will now be living.

And what will Israel do when the Hamas start firing Kassams from Neve Dekalim into the rest of Israel? Will Peres, Sarid and Lapid join Sharon in giving the Palestinians Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as their reward?

This whole evacuation is a big mistake.

[alexbmn]

the leftist solution is responsible for 1000+dead Jews.The rightist solution is slowly erasing terror to nothing.

[danholo]

I don't think so. In fact, we know that the same houses used to raise Jewish children will now become property of Arafat and the Hamas to manufacture more weapons to be used to mass-murder those very same Jewish children in whose houses the terrorists will now be living.

That won't happen. According to the disengagement plan buildings like homes and synagogues will be razed during the pull out.

[sharonbn]

Tell me, do you think that ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip will make Israel more secure?

yes. the less friction there is between Israeli and Pal population, the better defense the army can provide to the general population. Of course the army should continue in its successful campaign against Pal terrorism. But fighting terrorism must not be the goal and the only course of action. The goal is achieving an agreement with Pal leadership and let them rule their 3 million people.

Also, on a higher level I will note that dismantling Israeli colonies from occupied territories, territories that legally foreign country - this the right thing to do. Israelis have no business and no legal right to settle in a foreign land, just because they conquered it be force. Same as the Chiense have no right to settle in Tibet. The fact that Jews used to live in these places some time in the distant past bares no significance over the present, unless you want the British, Turks, Egyptians, Romans, etc. to stake their claim over the land.