Where is the Noble Side of Norway and Other Nations?

[peacelover]

Oh now tell us how You really feel! You have alot of words but basically Israel is wrong and Islam is right?

A slight over reaction James.

I am a white Christian, and have no loyalty to Islam whatsoever. Furthermore, I have consistently said I think there is dual responsibility for the conflict, with mistakes on both sides. To an absolute fanatic, that might constituye blaming everything on Israel. To reasonable, rational people, that does not equte to saying 'Israel is wrong and Islam is right'.

Calm down mate.

[minusthejihad]

But the interpretation I have from you is:

Reason and logic don't matter. Just the fact that 2 sides are fighting over whatever or who cares what, makes them both wrong. So you are also implying that defending yourself is just as "bad" as murdering someone out of blind haterd. Hmm, interesting. So now that we all know we are also "bad" for protecting ourselves or our families, I'll ask you, just as I asked StephenNichols (look below for answers), what the hell is your answer. Stop bitching and gets to creating a solution. All I hear from Peacelover is your hatred of Israel. Isn't peace about love and not hate, so why do you use such a hypocritical name? Thanks by the way for telling us your age. I remember what 18 was like myself nine years ago:

-Everyone should just get along, they just SHOULD because that's how the world should be. Oh forget about all your history and pain, rationality, or logic, just get along.

-I'm 18, I know everything. Older people aren't wiser, they're corrupted by narrowmindedness, us young people are the future, are the brilliant ones, all others are blind, biased, and ignorant. Sounds like China's Cultural Revolution. Hae you learned about that yet? Probably not, its usually taught after high-school. Well, it didn't work.

-Everyone in the world should be watched and taken care of, especially the ones who can't take care of themselves. Oh, the pain I felt for the downtrodden.

-I'm right, everyone else is wrong. Especially those evil corporations, and the Builderbergs, can't forget them, or the evil Zionists.

Face it, you're young, immature, you don't even have an extensive education. You've only learned 0.000087% of your own history, much less than that of the Jews and Arabs. You're parents probably take care of you and for that you accept their beliefs, lest of course any "right" or conservative beliefs, because MTV doesn't think that's cool. You are a young radical, and you love it because you think you are an Existentialist, a "free" thinker, not obscured by the "Man's" judgement or his money. You think what you say will irk the foundation, your non-conformist mantra will shake the white conservatives of their realms and pave the world for a colorful rainbow of love.

Well, please wake up, pursue higher education and stop watching MTV. Then when you actually support yourself and understand the value of a dollar or even a Euro, you may start to understand what family is and where your loyalty lies. Then, PLEASE study history instead of consistently trying to rewrite it like your Maoist friends did, and themn, only then, can you get up and proclaim your anti-semetic views to a bunch of Jews on a forum, kid. Oh, yeah, one last thing, stop being so Jealous of Jews. Instead try to outsmart us by learning. Help your country create great things and build its own paradise in a desert surrounded by raving lunatics. Then you will lose your angry jealousy.

[peacelover]

Why do people have to keep getting personal on this board? Anyway...

So you are also implying that defending yourself is just as "bad" as murdering someone out of blind haterd. Hmm, interesting. So now that we all know we are also "bad" for protecting ourselves or our families, I'll ask you, just as I asked StephenNichols (look below for answers), what the hell is your answer.

I have indeed said that the fact that Israel does not specifically target Palestinians does not make the deaths any better - do you disagree? Be honest, if it was someone you loved who was killed by war planes, would the fact that the army didn't intentionally target your loved one make you feel any better?

If not, then you must see that in issues of death, it doesn't matter what the person's motivation is - you're just as dead when killed unintentionally by the IDF as you are if killed deliberately by a suicide bomber. Therefore, the tragedy is just as bad, and we need to stop this death on both sides . Your opinion seems to be that Israelis will be protected and who gives a damn if Palestinians have to die to make this happen? My issue is that Israel's 'self-defence':

a) implicates innocent civilians.
b) will not stop terror in the long-term.

I have made the distinction between deliberately killing people (ie terrorists), and civilians being implicated by military policies by Israelis - therefore, you have completely misquoted me. However, I have yet to see any evidence that the motivation of the killer makes the victim any less dead. Until you give me this evidence (which of course you cannot) then I will continue to maintain that unintentional Palestinian deaths by the IDF need to be avoided just as much as Israeli deaths by terrorists, because death is death. Once you're dead, it doesn't matter if someone meant to kill you or not.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer to you:

THERE ARE NO DEGREES OF DEATH

You ask what my answer to the conflict is - as I have said all along, it is negotiation. If you would like to know my views on what should happen at those negotiations, they are as follows:

• complete cessation of all terrorist activity
• creation of a Palestinian state, in territory equivalent in size to pre-67 borders (possibly involving land-swaps in order to give Israel secure borders)
• no right of return
• Palestinian state must have international supervision to ensure that it is not sponsoring terrorist activity against Israel, or teaching hatred and violence in schools/on TV
• All Arab states must recognise Israel's right to exist in security
• The Palestinian state must be demilitarised
• Jerusalem an internationalised city
• Settlements should be dismantled, as far as possible

You will probably disagree with a lot of that - but maybe you should speak to someone who genuinely does hate Israel to see that my views are actually pretty moderate.

All I hear from Peacelover is your hatred of Israel. Isn't peace about love and not hate, so why do you use such a hypocritical name?

Hatred of Israel? Or criticism of certain policies? There is a blatant difference. If you can find anywhere where I have said that Israel does not have the right to exist, or that Israeli people do not have the right to live in peace, then please show me, & I will retract those statements.

The fact I have criticised Israeli policies (As I have criticised Palestinian policies) does not mean I hate the country. Please appreciate the difference. You should speak to some people who really do hate Israel - their views are somewhat different to mine.

Everyone should just get along, they just SHOULD because that's how the world should be. Oh forget about all your history and pain, rationality, or logic, just get along.

Actually, yes. People are dying here - so is it wrong to want to resolve the conflict? Do you want to prolong it or something?

If not, and you do genuinely want peace, then there is no option but to get along. Currently, that isn't happening, and that's why we need reform and negotiation, because otherwise this horror will never stop. Incidentally, there is 'history and pain' on both sides.

-I'm 18, I know everything. Older people aren't wiser, they're corrupted by narrowmindedness, us young people are the future, are the brilliant ones, all others are blind, biased, and ignorant. Sounds like China's Cultural Revolution. Hae you learned about that yet? Probably not, its usually taught after high-school. Well, it didn't work.

This bit was quite funny - I don't recall ever saying anything like that! You have completely made that up. Can't you try to discuss the issues with me instead of resorting to pathetic cheap shots about my age?

BTW, would that be the Chinese cultural revolution from 1966-76, launched by Mao Zedong in order to renew the Chinese revolutionary spirit and prevent China developing along the same lines as the Soviet Union?

You seem to have a really bad stereotype of young people. We're not all like that - and some of us even know about the cultural revolution

You've only learned 0.000087% of your own history, much less than that of the Jews and Arabs. You're parents probably take care of you and for that you accept their beliefs, lest of course any "right" or conservative beliefs, because MTV doesn't think that's cool.

I have every right to be left-wing if I like - isn't that the point of a democracy? But as for my parents, my views on the Middle East are nothing like theirs. Look, I cannot be bothered to explain my family history to you, but I have broken away from their views quite a lot. You see, you might think I'm anti-Israel, but many Arabs think I'm pro-Israel. How someone else's views come across is all down to your own perpective. Once the sound of egypt forum is up and running again, you can go there to see how much I disagree with many Arab views on the Middle East.

BTW I don't acually watch MTV, but as far as I know they don't really say much about the Middle East.

You are a young radical, and you love it because you think you are an Existentialist, a "free" thinker, not obscured by the "Man's" judgement or his money. You think what you say will irk the foundation, your non-conformist mantra will shake the white conservatives of their realms and pave the world for a colorful rainbow of love.

You seem to have made quite an in depth psychological assessment of someone you've never even met. With respect, you know nothing about me, so quit the unfounded insults and character indictments. There is no way you can infer the asssessment you have made of my character from what you have seen of me on this board.

Well, please wake up, pursue higher education and stop watching MTV.

OK, but you stop being patronising, and quite frankly, downright rude.

Then, PLEASE study history instead of consistently trying to rewrite it like your Maoist friends did, and themn, only then, can you get up and proclaim your anti-semetic views to a bunch of Jews on a forum, kid.

I like the use of the word kid!!! You have serious issues with young people don't you - why is that?

I have studied history to A-Level, and have never tried to rewrite it. If you know about history then you will know that historical 'fact' is very hard to come by - there is usually more than one version of history that can be inferred by looking at sources. If you can back up what you say with evidence, you have a valid interpretation. It would be a new historical perspective indeed if you are trying to say there can only ever be one version of history.

I'm not even sure which bits of history I'm supposed to have rewritten

The maybe you can show me where I've been anti-semitic. It's so easy to accuse people of that. I'm not anti-semitic, and find it quite amusing that not completely supporting everything Isrel does gets me labelled as such. I await the day when people can make a distinction between criticism of Israel (which in my case occurs alongside criticism of the Palestinians) and anti-semitism.

And as for the stuff about being jealous of Jews - completely unfounded inference on your part.

[peacelover]

I almost forgot:

In response to your prevalent comments about my supposed lack of education and low intellect, here are some credentials for you|

GCSEs

8 A*
3 A

A Levels

4 A (one of which is in history)

I am also a law student at Oxford University - therfore I am pursuing a higher education, as per your request.

I'm pretty happy with my education - it doesn't really get much more competitive than law at Oxford, and they certainly don't accept dumb people to study it there. So please stop treating me like I'm stupid, because I'm clearly not.

Listen bro, I haven't made any comments about your level of education and intelligence, all I ask is that you stop being insulting about my education, and show me my 'ignorance' by refuting my points, and not by getting bitchy about my age.

I think our discussion would be a lot more productive that way - there really is no need for you to be so nasty, and I'd like it if we could discuss the issues at hand together without getting personal?

What do you reckon?

[cerulean]

PeaceLover, I hope no one calls you stupid, because that would not be accurate. However, when considering the Middle East I think it's way more useful to focus on one's lack of knowledge (not a slight, but a reality given the nature of the region) than on one's marks in school.

[minusthejihad]

PEACELOVER,

I reckon:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You ask what my answer to the conflict is - as I have said all along, it is negotiation. If you would like to know my views on what should happen at those negotiations, they are as follows:


complete cessation of all terrorist activity

creation of a Palestinian state, in territory equivalent in size to pre-67 borders (possibly involving land-swaps in order to give Israel secure borders)

no right of return

Palestinian state must have international supervision to ensure that it is not sponsoring terrorist activity against Israel, or teaching hatred and violence in schools/on TV

All Arab states must recognise Israel's right to exist in security

The Palestinian state must be demilitarised

Jerusalem an internationalised city

Settlements should be dismantled, as far as possible
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the smartest thing I have ever read you post. Yet, your immaturity would allow you to believe that all these things are possible, when in fact they are not. The terms you state above ask more of the Arab World and the Palestinians than what was asked of them at Oslo, and Arafat got up and walked away, starting the second Intifada. What do you think the Hamas will do, stop calling for the destruction of Israel over the weekend and gpo out and start training for jobs in the casino industry?

All I was saying about your previous posts, without getting personnal like you may have inferred, is that you are too immature, not unintelligent, to know that what you think should so easily be accepted by people around the world, will not be accepted because it is the "right" way. Especially in the Arab World, where their own study showed that most of the Arab World is stuck in a murderous vacuum.

I am very proud of you that you are in Oxford (oh, and it does get more competitive). However, I could have predicted that you would be a lawyer with all the double-speak I have read from you. Your points shifted greatly from your previous posts, and your reply to me sounded as if it were all in defence of yourself, not the issues.

It just makes me laugh when I hear someone from England, "Land of the High Morality" or "The Unbiased Ones", tell the 2 groups of people that the English and French pretty much influenced and lead into this mess to "get along", after pulling out of the Middle East to protect their own ass, while messily drawing up boundaries and territories. Glad to see you take the objective moral high ground like your leaders. Is this an English thing? After all, your peple did create the best forms of torture.

[Mediocrates]

PL:

What kind of law do you think you'll pursue or are you going into politics?

[peacelover]

PeaceLover, I hope no one calls you stupid, because that would not be accurate. However, when considering the Middle East I think it's way more useful to focus on one's lack of knowledge (not a slight, but a reality given the nature of the region) than on one's marks in school.

I agree cerulean, but minusthejihad's post made several patronising references to my education, saying I need to stop watching MTV and get educated.
I was responding to those points.

Either way, I do not think the fact I am young means I am not knowledgable about the Middle East. Nor does the fact I do not agree with people on this board mean I am not knowledgable. I have always tried to respond to people's points on the basis of what they say without calling them ignorant. Like I say - if I am factually wrong, I am happy to be corrected, if not, will people please quit calling me ignorant - it is so patronising, and so far it is an accusation that has not been backed up by any evidence.

I like the way that you don't object to minus the jihad's completely unnecessary and sarcastic post towards my immature personality, which was quite unkind in places ("Well, please wake up, pursue higher education and stop watching MTV. Then when you actually support yourself and understand the value of a dollar or even a Euro) but you do seem to object to me defending myself against this. Why should I have to justfy my presence here, just because I don't tow the Israeli line?

I am very proud of you that you are in Oxford (oh, and it does get more competitive). However, I could have predicted that you would be a lawyer with all the double-speak I have read from you. Your points shifted greatly from your previous posts, and your reply to me sounded as if it were all in defence of yourself, not the issues.

minus: Actually, in terms of British university education, it deosn't get much more competitive. I was referring to this and not to life post-uni.

Stop inferring that I change my opinion and show me where I have - maybe I can clarify my points. And if my response was in defence of myself - that's because your post was in attack of me and not the issues.

It just makes me laugh when I hear someone from England, "Land of the High Morality" or "The Unbiased Ones", tell the 2 groups of people that the English and French pretty much influenced and lead into this mess to "get along", after pulling out of the Middle East to protect their own ass, while messily drawing up boundaries and territories. Glad to see you take the objective moral high ground like your leaders. Is this an English thing? After all, your peple did create the best forms of torture.

England did indeed screw up very badly in its dealings with the ME. I'm perfectly prepared to criticise my country, a skill which all you mature people here seem to lack.

Once again though, you cannot resist taking a swipe. Dig up all the dirt you like on England - I'll probably agree with a lot of it. I ask you again - do you not think the two should get along? If not, what is your approach going to be?

Yet, your immaturity would allow you to believe that all these things are possible, when in fact they are not.

Well, I don't se your way (ie military responses) providing a secure and lasting peace for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. I think you're pretty naive if you think the Palestinians will ever let peace-terms be forced upon them. They will not.

Mediocrates: in case that was a genuine question, I want to go into human rights law

[Mediocrates]

thank you

[James]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by peacelover
[B]

A slight over reaction James.

I am a white Christian, and have no loyalty to Islam whatsoever.


Since you are a Christian, there is a site for you to visit: The Voice
of the Martyrs. Web site:thevoice@vom-usa.org
I think you will find it informative about Islam and it's, band of merry men.

[peacelover]

HI James

Couldn't get the link to work - did you type it in right?

[James]

Originally posted by peacelover
HI James

Couldn't get the link to work - did you type it in right?

My mistake! I gave you their e-mail. Web site:www.persecution.
com

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by James


My mistake! I gave you their e-mail. Web site:www.persecution.com

[minusthejihad]

PL,

Actually, Israel's new military presence is lessening the amount of attacks. It may be temporary, but as long as my family can go another day, feeling a little safer about stepping out of the house, I'm all for it. And this is exactly what I tell my Palestinians friends in the US. Non of which feel that terrorism will save their families.

And, my "attack" on you wasn't personal, it had everything to do with the issues. All we do here is debate on the issues, in this instance they are issues which you brought up including your opinion. I told you that your opinion on the issues was immature. I stand by that point. And I think it very much matters if you understand the value of a dollar or Euro. Just wondering, do you support yourself? Cause it very much has to do with your opinions on the world. When I was in my collegiate bubble, I though everything had an answer and I thought I looked at everything with an objective point of view. I though humans were genuinely good from the start, that humanity was good, that life isn't just about survival. I found this not the case when I began to support myself and realized that my liberal beliefs truly came and went with age.

And if say, you had studied the history and facts for (benefit of the doubt) the last 10 years of your life, there are people in this forum who have studied them for over 40 years. (Me, the last 10 as well). The fact that you can come in here and tell these people who are older (maybe smarter), but definately wiser than you that they are closeminded and don't understand the situation is a very arrogant and brazen stance you take. But then again, you are in law school, that's a very good trait to develop in your field.

I love growing up, your age (give or take 4 years in either direction) is the one segment of life where you can be so passionately WRONG about something, blinded by your admirable search for truth and justice that you will focus on someone's suffering rather than how they caused it. Well, living in the Real World, where I have to support myself, where I suffer everyday, I find it hard to worry about the plight of a bunch of brainwashed people who are taught from the day they are born to hate Jews. I pity them, but I don't find any compassion like you do. To me, they are the enemy, and if the civilized world has to control their every actions and "take care" of them to keep the rest of the civilized world safe, than so be it.

I think with what you want to do in life, you know, right the wrongs, you should focus on having organizations like Amnesty International go after the true cause of all this grief: the parents and leaders who commit child abuse; instilling hatred in babies. Teaching them to hate Jews before they even have a chance to speak or read and find out for themselves. How can you target Israel and not target those terrible people?

And as far as criticising our governments. I do it all the time, and I've heard many pro-Israel forum members do the same. I don't like Bush or Sharon and I don't always agree with their tactics. For Instance: If you're going to attack Iraq, do it already, don't tell them when and how. That's just stupid. Don't give them time to make more WOMD. And for Israel, I agree with the points you made above, and I think over 2/3s of Israelis agree with your conditions for peace, the problem is:

The Arab Fundamentalists don't and they never will. So they need to be executed to pave the way for not just a free world, but a free galaxy where we can all live in Peace 200 hundred years from now.

There will always be War and Peace, Good and Evil, Day and Night, Wrong and RIght. There's nothing you can do about it, but take the right side. This is the balance of the universe, Universal Law, sorry, but people have fought it forever, us humans aren't there yet to change that. When Aliens attack us, maybe we'll all get together, before then, I wouldn't hold your breath, to do otherwise would be immature. Good luck.

[peacelover]

Hi minus

Actually, Israel's new military presence is lessening the amount of attacks. It may be temporary, but as long as my family can go another day, feeling a little safer about stepping out of the house, I'm all for it

I genuinely am glad that your family feels safer - but the Israelis are not the only people to consider here. How many Palestinians (who are nothing to do with terror) are having to suffer for it? Do you think they feel safe? My issue with the current situation is that it sacrifices Palestinians for the sake of Israelis.

And, my "attack" on you wasn't personal, it had everything to do with the issues.

Re-read it.

• "Well, please wake up, pursue higher education and stop watching MTV",
• "I remember what 18 was like myself nine years ago"
• "Sounds like China's Cultural Revolution. Hae you learned about that yet? Probably not, its usually taught after high-school."
• "I'm 18, I know everything. Older people aren't wiser, they're corrupted by narrowmindedness, us young people are the future, are the brilliant ones, all others are blind, biased, and ignorant."
• "Lest of course any "right" or conservative beliefs, because MTV doesn't think that's cool."
• "PLEASE study history instead of consistently trying to rewrite it like your Maoist friends did, and themn, only then, can you get up and proclaim your anti-semetic views to a bunch of Jews on a forum, kid."

I'm going to stop now, cos I could actually post the whole thing. Can you not appreciate that this comes across as a little condescending?

And this was just downright unnecessary:

Oh, yeah, one last thing, stop being so Jealous of Jews.

What exactly were you trying to achieve by that comment?

Listen if you can honestly re-read that post and say it was not at all patronising or sarcastic then fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree. This is a silly thing to be discussing really - I even think that and I'm only an immature kid!!

Incidentally though, which post of mine did you object to so strongly?

And I think it very much matters if you understand the value of a dollar or Euro. Just wondering, do you support yourself?

Yes and no. I do live at home with my parents during holidays, but as a student, I have had to scrimp and save. For the past 2 years, I have not had a day off during a typical week - I'd leave the house at 7:30 for college, and several days a week go straight to work from 5-8 in a busy shop (where I've been all day today!). I work every Saturday and Sunday. Then of course as you can imagine I have heaps of work to do once I get back.

The reason I do this is so I can support myself through uni - it is so expensive. My parents can afford to pay my fees, but not for the rest of it.

So I don't support myself in the way I assume you mean, but I do work very hard to put myself through uni, and my father was unemployed for much of my younger life, which to my ultra-immature mind convinced me I was headed for the streets. Never have I forgotten how my young mind was too afraid to turn on the
light or watch TV because I thought if we got a big electricity bill, we couldn't afford it, and would have to give up our home. It is so wierd how little memories like that can stay with you - but since I was young I have always been very conscious of money. I take your point about how different it is with your own house and family though.

My main issue I have with your point about my age is that I am not necessarily like you. You may well have thought you could change the world when you were 18 - I don't. Your description if yourself at 18 is nothing like how I am, yet you have assumed that my views will develop like yours. I would call that "arrogant and brazen" (to use your words).

The fact that you can come in here and tell these people who are older (maybe smarter), but definately wiser than you that they are closeminded and don't understand the situation is a very arrogant and brazen stance you take.

Yes, there are many people older than me on this board (although I have no idea how old anyone is except you and I!). But if you look at the world, there are plenty of people older than both of us who do share my views on the situation. That's why I don't accept your criticism of me on the grounds of my age - because so many people who are a lot older would agree with me (and many, no doubt, with you)

Also, the whole point of history is that you do not have to have lived through it to have studied it. I know more about history from before I was born than since. The fact people are older than me does not mean they are not closeminded, and the fact I am younger than them does not mean I am less entitled to point it out if I want to - but where did I say it?

How can you target Israel and not target those terrible people?

I do target them. Like I say, I think instilling the desire for peace into the Palestinians is fundamental to peace, and I have said so. People on here have tended to box me - I don't agree with everything Israel does, therefore I must think they are the only ones to blame for the situation. This simply is not true. I believe the current situation has been arrived at by mistakes by both sides.

If you think only the Pals are to blame, then I am afraid I feel it is you who is naive.

I pity them, but I don't find any compassion like you do. To me, they are the enemy, and if the civilized world has to control their every actions and "take care" of them to keep the rest of the civilized world safe, than so be it.

There seems to be a mentality that Palestinian = Muslim fanatic who wants to wipe all Jews from the face of the planet. This view is... well... racist. Not all Palestinians are like that, and I vehemently object to the notion that they are. And if you accept that there are many decent Palestinians who want peace, then how can you not feel compassion?

But it doesn't surpirse me to hear you feel no compassion for them. I think that is the crux of the difference in our opinion - but if having compassion for palestinians AS WELL AS Israelis makes me naive and immature, it's a criticism I'll happily take, and I'd encourage more of the world to become less mature.

When Aliens attack us, maybe we'll all get together, before then, I wouldn't hold your breath, to do otherwise would be immature. Good luck.

I'm not holding my breath, I've always been well aware that I cannot change the world. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give up trying.
I just want to use my life to do what good I can, and what I get done will probably be negligible, but at least I'll have tried, and if I have made a difference - even to one person, then it will have been worthwhile. So while we cannot do much, we should still do what we can instead of giving up.

OK, so I'm naive, but naivety can be a good thing!

I love growing up, your age (give or take 4 years in either direction) is the one segment of life where you can be so passionately WRONG about something, blinded by your admirable search for truth and justice that you will focus on someone's suffering rather than how they caused it

You can call me passionately wrong if you like (the feeling's mutual )

But I am not blind. It's about 1 year since I started to go on forums to discuss the ME, and when I started, my views were so different to how they are now. Why? because I listened to people, and as I listened, I was prepared to be wrong. That is fundamental to being impartial - that you discuss not to convert others to your own point of view, but to listen and be prepared to accept that you may be wrong.

Well, I went on totallyjewish.com, and after discussion with some lovely jewish people on there, I realised I was wrong about a lot of things, notably right of return etc. I won't go into detail, but take my word that many of my views have changed as a result of how I discussed with these people. I wasn't indignant, I was prepared to listen, and I learned. NOw I can honestly say that in my heart of hearts, I believe what I believe because I genuinely believe it to be right. Of course, I could be wrong, but it will be a mistake borne out of genuine misunderstanding, and not because I have already decided what I want to believe. I come onto these forums because I want to learn, and I want to be corrected if I am shown to be wrong.