Ukranian Elections

[Mil]

Guys,

All of you probably see the events currently taking place in Ukraine. Hopefully, if all goes well, the situation around the election results and the governing party will be resolved and if not - there definetly will be a civil war.

By some estimates there are over 200,000 Jews currently residing in Ukraine and if a war of any kind will flame up the Jews will be one of the first victims - no matter from which side. I am very nervous - very very nervous.

[takeo]

Calm down, tomorrow the high court will make a decision about the complaints of the opposition candidate. Perhaps there'll be a political settlement or compromise. Neither side seems to be antisemitic, so I don't see any danger for the Jewish population of Ukraine.
Ukrain isn't Iraq, noone wants war or civil war to erupt.

[Semsem]

Takeo you are incorrect. The nationalistic party that won in the western region includes some antisemites. That's why many Jews voted for the existing pro Russian block. A large part of Western Ukraine was Austria until 1918. That's where my grandfather was from (Czernovitz). They voted for the nationalists.

Good chance Ukraine will break into 2 States.

[Semsem]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/507263.html

Here is an article in Haaretz about the elections. Apparently both leaders are good to the Jews.

[Illuminatus]

Given Europe's continuous habit of mutual slaughter throughout
its history and,

the hundreds of thousands killed just in the last decade in
Bosia/Croatia/Serbia/Kosovo -- I believe your concern is
well founded.

A court decision may not be the end. Whichever side of Dnieper
River loses the court decision -- it will be devastating.

I'm not so sure they will just shrug their shoulders, give up,
go home and go back to work. Something has been gravely amiss
in the Ukraine and a shameful past is just now catching up.

But I think things will work out just fine.

There is some good news. My 1st reason for optimism?

The night before the Thanskgiving holiday (Wednesday), there were a
couple of news reports that noted that certain rapid reaction units
in Britain and the US (the 82nd Airborne out of Ft. Bragg, North
Carolina which has a brigade in Italy) went on a "deployment alert".
Nothing really happened, but maybe this was the reason:

'No Russian troops in Kyiv (Kiev) - Ivanov'

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=10724299

[.. MOSCOW. Nov 25 (Interfax) - There are no Russian army
commando units in Kyiv, said Russian Defense Minister Sergei
Ivanov. ..]

Of course, we do trust Sergei Ivanov.

2nd) If things really unravel, Europe is saved! The Axis of Weasels
led by France (along with Russia) will come to the rescue.

If you historians will recall, on 12 June 1812, without war being
declared, the French forces (over 600,000 men and 1,420 artillery
pieces) crossed the River Nemen and invaded the Russian territory.

Napolean faced a Russian force of 220–240,000 soldiers with 942 guns.

The Russians were divided into three main armies. The first, covering
the route to St Petersburg, was led by General Mikhail Barclay de
Tolly, the Minister of War. The second, cutting off the way to Moscow,
was led by General Piotr Bagration. The third, southern, army was
in the Ukraine. It was led by General Alexander Tormasov.

The French, "chased away each army", and had Russia all to themselves.

Why do I mention 1812? Well this past weekend.........

'Sarkozy (France's finance minister) promises truth and glory'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,38...110633,00.html

[..Hailed by 40,000 delirious supporters, France's most popular
politician yesterday took triumphant control of its ruling centre-right
party, promising to restore battered Gallic pride with a mix of honesty,
energy and new ideas.

"France is not nostalgia, a past that we venerate the better to
forget the disappointments of a less glorious future," Nicolas
Sarkozy told flag-waving delegates to the UMP party's congress
in a cavernous exhibition centre in this northern Paris suburb. ..]

(I like this guy ...... a "glorious future"!) He's the one who most
probably will replace Chirac.

and like Napoleon of old - he's also the one to lead the Axis of Weasels
into the Ukraine, bring peace to all, and save Europe.

btw.....on 2 September 1812, the French army entered Moscow and a very
pleasant, light snow fell.

3rd reason for optimism. Yesterday, Dr. Condi Rice explained the US
position (sounds like C. Powell may have spoken "out of line") - this
(The Ukraine) is strictly a EU/Russia internal problem - just like
Bosnia.

Thus,

[..It is estimated that up to one-half of the 71,000 troops (US)
currently in Germany could be sent home. ..]

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...299315,00.html

Not "could be" -- the withdrawal is happening right now, on schedule
and in earnest (and I wish we could hurry!).

[Mediocrates]

Every few decades like clockwork some professional eurocrats decides it's time to topple some such government or another or simply invade one another. This typically opens the door for a new era in slaughter.

[Mil]

Neither Europe or US will use any of their military forces to enter Ukraine. That will be a direct confrontation call to Russia and nobody wants to see the End of the World.

Russia will not put military force in Ukraine - doing that will spark a civil war of unimaginable proportions. The opposition is blowing too much water and is outright lying about Russian Spetznaz being anywhere in Ukraine.

The main reason behind the current situation are social economic and ethnic divides among various regions of Ukraine. My fear is that when it will come to settling scores the Jews have always ended up in the middle. That's exactly what happened during the Russian Civil War and WWII in Ukraine.

[Illuminatus]

1) Chirac named Agriculture Minister Herve Gaymard as his third finance
chief this year. He's got his work cut out for him -- he's got an economy
plagued by unemployment of almost 10 percent. Of course he's not banking
on our "strong dollar" policy.... : )

One immediate problem he faces is the state-owned EDF, who oppose the
government's share sale plan because of concern over job losses. Strikes
this year have cut output by as much as 15 percent of France's capacity,
disrupting domestic supplies and exports to neighboring countries.

btw, Herve Gaymard is also a proud champion of the EuroCorps (the EU Army).

http://www.eurocorps.org/site/index....n&content=home

I understand their headquarters in Strasbourg is "a little hectic"
lately? : ) If they need any help, I think 2 supply ships and
some engineers should fulfill our "obligations".

2) [..Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych said Monday he would
support another presidential vote if allegations of fraud in last week's
election are proven, while the Supreme Court debated an opposition appeal
challenging the validity of the results. ..]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041129/D86LJPVO0.html

That's a big "if" on what he'll accept as proof.

3) This is no way to treat a country that still has 14 tank divisions.

[..Ukraine’s foreign policy body will announce Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov
and political strategist Gleb Pavlovsky personae non gratae for their
support of pro-Moscow presidential candidate, Prime Minister Viktor
Yanukovich...]

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/11/...bandyuri.shtml

The Ukraine may not like the Russkies, but they better get used to a cold
winter with no gas from Russia like the Russians did before.
------

● [..My fear is that when it will come to settling scores
the Jews have always ended up in the middle. ..]

Come now Mil -- According to Chirac, the Europeans have evolved.
That's "Old Europe" mentality. Times have changed. Show some faith
and have a little trust with the "New Europe".

[goliath]

[QUOTE=Illuminatus]Given Europe's continuous habit of mutual slaughter throughout
its history and,
.'Sarkozy (France's finance minister) promises truth and glory'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,38...110633,00.html
[..Hailed by 40,000 delirious supporters, France's most popular
politician yesterday took triumphant control of its ruling centre-right
party, promising to restore battered Gallic pride with a mix of honesty,
energy and new ideas.
"France is not nostalgia, a past that we venerate the better to
forget the disappointments of a less glorious future," Nicolas
Sarkozy told flag-waving delegates to the UMP party's congress
in a cavernous exhibition centre in this northern Paris suburb. ..]
(I like this guy ...... a "glorious future"!) He's the one who most
probably will replace Chirac.
__________________________________________________ ________
The only main problem Sarkozy ,can look in the face ,It's our immense and abyssal natonal debt ,if he approaches too close he can fall in.

It's certain that he will be a candidate for the next presidential election of 2007.

It's certain in no way that his popularity will as well important as the media claim it !

It's not excluded that Beautiful Chirac has no vague desire to prolong is career.

He was elected with a 83% score , theses votes representing all the voters who did not to have Le Pen as fascist president.

As for thr popularirty and for the success of Sarkozy ,it's about an advertising beating ,to make forget to the voters ,the real problem.

By analyzing the work made by Sarkozy ,the profitable one ,consists of the installation of automatic radars with zero tolerance to fight against "the road crime" ,who are very impopular ,but will be make a profit of euros 1.5 billion. in the boxes of the state ,which really needs it.

MYL
The Ukrainians who are anti-Semites today ,I do not dare to say all ,cannot absolutely behave as it anything had not taken place 65 years ago,they were the cruelest and very happy to help death ss squadrons .
The biggest part of my family disapeared in this time.
Today ,a similar attitude ,would provoke a such reaction ,that is not even thinkable , the excesses of 1940 , are as absolute prohibition from the past.
No Ukrainian will dare to exercice or think about it,to exercice any negative attitude ,towards the Jews living in Ukraine.

[Illuminatus]

● goliath writes:

[.. Sarkozy ,it's about an advertising beating ,to make forget to
the voters ,the real problem ..]

Have you ever heard of a nice, respectable, (much beloved by the
Democrats) gentleman named Karl Rove?

..."to make forget to the voters ,the real problem"... is an art that requires
an "architect".

Perhaps Monsieur Sarkozy should hire Rove for his 2007 campaign.

.......as for those radars - they can't be accurate.

Not according to Eric Clapton who claims he was driving his Porche 911
through the Burgundy region at a "very leisurely speed". I gather his $900
fine was personal contribution to the "profit of euros 1.5 billion"?

You know, if only Saddam Hussein was still in power and still sending money,
they wouldn't need these “radars” : )

[Mediocrates]

What does this have to do with anything?

[Illuminatus]

Many believe that if the Orange Revolution takes control of the
government, Ukraine’s so-called “oligarchs” – who backed the
candidacy of PM Yanukovych - could be tried for stealing state
property, election fraud, and other crimes.

This group includes Presidential Administration head Viktor Medvedchuk,
President Leonid Kuchma’s son-in-law Viktor Pinchuk, and Donetsk-based
business mogul Rinat Akhmetov, supposedly the Ukraine’s richest man.

Financial Times: 'Industrialist banks on Yanukovich win'

[KettleWhistle]

The main reason behind the current situation are social economic and ethnic divides among various regions of Ukraine. My fear is that when it will come to settling scores the Jews have always ended up in the middle. That's exactly what happened during the Russian Civil War and WWII in Ukraine.

That's very unlikely, but in case there will be a threat to the Jewish community, local Israeli representatives will evacuate the Jewish population in a matter of days. Also, nowdays, the Jews will actually fight back, if they'll have to.

[Mil]

Posted by KettleWhistle:


That's very unlikely, but in case there will be a threat to the Jewish community, local Israeli representatives will evacuate the Jewish population in a matter of days.

I doubt it.


Also, nowdays, the Jews will actually fight back, if they'll have to.

I am pretty sure it will not come to that.

[Mediocrates]

Worst case scenario, the current president says no more elections, declares victory and arrests a few political opponents, puts the army on 'alert'. Then what? I suspect very little would come of it and the Ukraine would remain more or less at the fringes of modern politics; not quite a brutal repressive developing nation but not an emerging ex Soviet bloc state either. Turkmenistan-West?