Attack on Civilian Infrastructure

**NewsGuy** · 05-23-2002, 07:36 AM

It is now believed that the Palestinians have adopted a new terrorism strategy of attacking Israeli civilian infrastructure, similar to that of al Qaeda against the U.S.

Today, Palestinians blew up a fuel truck inside Israel's largest fuel depot, which is located in a dense residential population center of Tel Aviv.

The attack was carried out by attaching a bomb to the underside of the truck and detonated remotely, by a cell phone, when the truck was loading fuel. At the tme, there were a dozen other fuel trucks parked alongside the one that exploded, and they were all in close proximity to a huge fuel reserve storage tank.

By pure chance, no one was hurt in the attack, but its has a great significance -- The Palestinians are targeting Israel's civilian infrastructure.

If there was to be a direct retaliation from Israel, it would be to blow up the Palestinians fuel reserves, their power plants, and their telecommunications centers.

But I am certain that the U.S. and the EU are working feverishly not to force Arafat to round up all Palestinian terrorists, but instead they are coming out full-force to pressure Israel not to retaliate appropriately.

I very much hope that Israel does not capitulate to foreign pressure and opts to retaliate against the Palestinians so forcefully that the Palestinians start getting the message. Otherwise, there is no alternative for Israel but to turn one Palestinian town after another into what the Jenin terrorist camps looked like after Defensive Shield.

Iori Yagami · 05-23-2002, 07:53 AM

The problem is, that if we do that, we will be crucified by the whole world. Things that the USA, Russia, or France can do, we can`t...

Vic · 05-23-2002, 08:27 AM

The uncomfortable question is whether the Palestinians are still acting on their own or whether an attack like this is orchestrated from the same quarters that 9/11 was. If this is the case putting pressure on the Palestinians alone will not help.

L@mplighterM · 05-23-2002, 08:35 AM

Thereâ€™s only one way in my mind to eliminate much of the terrorism in Israel.

Not one elected government in Israel since 1948 has been able to deal with Islamic Terrorism. Thereâ€™s no question that the threat to Israelâ€™s national security has increased dramatically in the last half century.

I believe that a military dictatorship could annex the WB and GS and deal with the situation effectively. Any other country would have placed the whole area under Marshall Law a long time ago. The trouble with an elected democracy that follows western values is that it uses the courts to establish what is right or wrong.

Itâ€™s not difficult for me to imagine total anarchy even in the US for itâ€™s a thin thread that binds civilization together. I donâ€™t sit around worrying about it all day and I donâ€™t look for Islamic Fundamentalists under my bed.

Still if you have loved ones itâ€™s worrisome when you try to speculate what these religious madmen are planning next. Itâ€™s frustrating to know that the very laws that protect these individuals are the same laws that have the potential to destroy civilization, as we know it today.

Given the choice as to whether I would give up my democratic rights in exchange for the destruction of the various Islamic terrorist groups I can honestly say that I donâ€™t know at this point. If the same question had arisen in my mind last year the answer would have been no.

At that point in time I was fully aware of the fact that various groups were committing terrorist acts in Israel but I was optimistic it would be resolved.

I suppose many peoples lives changed post 9/11 and it has scarred their minds forever and on that date Israel and the United States became brothers and sisters. That date will be etched in the history of the United States forever and Americans became acutely aware of the dangers from Islamic Fundamentalism.

I donâ€™t believe that the current administration in the US is tackling Fundamentalism in an aggressive manner because if the were they would have been fully supportive of Israelâ€™s actions in the WB.

**Mediocrates** · 05-23-2002, 10:08 AM

If I were deeply cynical, which of course I'm not...I'd have to say that is has to be Americas problem for real. On a day to day basis. No one in the US administration will anything proactive on the ground until terrorism is a regular occurence in the US.

Right now its still an abstract concept like patriotism. We all condemn the terrorists and put flag magnets on our cars and say the right words. But I wonder what people would do if there really were tanks in the streets and an NG trooper on every corner? I wonder if we really would refrain from declaring martial law.

On the other hand I have to question statements I've heard this week such as the one about terrorists acquiring WMD inevitably. OK, I accept that as a true statement. What are we supposed to do with that information? I mean if someone tries to breach the Sherrin-Harris nuclear reactor down the road, what is the threat color? Black? Phosphor Green? Flashbulb White?

I don't see how or if this administration is shaping our expectations in any meaningful way. And I'm afraid they won't until something else happens - that is, I don't see the US actually owning the problem until it sees that there really is no other choice.

We can all play word games I suppose with our brethren and sistern of the EU about strategic policy and unilateralism but we have to agree that for all seemingly random lashing out, something like 9-11 has never happened in Europe and for all of the nearly monthly 'smaller' terrorist events of the past 30 years in Europe like airliners blowing up and airport terminals becoming shooting galleries, the Europeans can't understand how deeply the US was shocked and wounded by this one event nor can they fully appreciate the scope of it. It doesn't matter that 99 out of 100 Americans were not touched by it personally, and frankly the tenor of the country on 9/11 was such that huge swaths of America had very negative opinions of NYC and if you asked them the day before how they might have felt about it, most people would've given you an answer like "those damn NYers, yankees, northern elite liberal snobs - serves them right".

And so?

None of that really matters. What matters is the formulation of a national psyche that is oriented with this in mind. That most of the world really doesn't like us and that it doesn't really bear an awful lot of analysis to figure out why because we aren't going to change even if we knew how or if it mattered that much. Which it doesn't.

They don't like us, we don't like them. We don't like YOU too much either and likewise. Get over it. You don't like what you see as our ignorance and vulgarity and we despise your apparent love of theory over people and adherence to glittering philosophic principals no matter who gets crushed. We have the death penality. You have the benign neglect of colonialism. You all tried and failed to make the world a reflection of your own culture. Now we get to try. We'll probably fail too. Get over it.

What matters is understanding that they really don't like us. Not in some ethereal way but in a real-time hard context. In a way that drives action. In way where the goals aren't entirely clear to anyone even to terrorists because certainly no matter how sophisticated the leaders of terrorism and no matter how much money, none of them can seriously think they'll take down the west. We put people and their GameBoys into space for fun and money. They were working with bone tools in living memory. There is no comparison.

But they can make our lives very miserable in very real ways for a very long time. The Vietnamese were fighting one invader or another for 400 years. Arab terrorism began the same day that oil wealth propelled them from the 8th century to the 20th. And there is no end in site. Their power is complex their motives obscure. Their goals are the same as they always were - superiority in ways we never bothered to understand and honestly, it doesn't matter what their motives are. Why should it? All we should care about is strategy, tactics, supplies, logistics, technique, method. I no more what to glean some insight into the motives of terrorism than I want to converse with an ant colony or a knife wielding crackhead.

It doesn't matter and even if it did I couldn't understand it let alone embrace it. So this is what our resistance and efforts against terrorism are about. They are about us and about them. And if that is too simplistic and brutal for you then too bad. Because the world is a brutal dark ugly place. There is supremacy and there is the boneyard and everything else is in transit between those two points.

Skogan · 05-23-2002, 11:58 AM

I agree with your analysis, but come to a different conclusion. Isolate, and let the world burn itself down, because in our effort to stop it, we are only burning ourselves.

They don't like our interventionism? Fine, lets step aside. Soon it will be appearent that our intervention stabelized. Don't like us bombing countries for oil? Next time we'll let Iraq keep Kuwait... and S.A.... and eventually the entire ME, so that one manica has controll over half the worlds oil supply. That, appearantly, is what they want.

We, more then any other country in the world, can isolate without much direct danger. Big oceans make good neighbors. We dont have to worry about foreign invaders or hostility. We can just keep to ourselves and fiddle as the world burns. At least then they will be too busy attacking eachother to attack us.

Skogan

L@mplighterM · 05-23-2002, 12:39 PM

I guess you donâ€™t know what a nuclear winter is all about? Ever hear of Strontium 90 and all that good stuff? How are you going to build an umbrella over the US?

Who wants to live in a giant cocoon? Donâ€™t you think people would continuously worry what the rest of the world was up to? Why donâ€™t you manufacture a giant lead condom and live in it?

alexbmn · 05-24-2002, 03:02 PM

Israel just barely avoided two attacks that whould have on a whole different level then anything before.Well now they are waiting for the third,hoping to lucky again.

Skogan · 05-24-2002, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I guess you donâ€™t know what a nuclear winter is all about? Ever hear of Strontium 90 and all that good stuff? How are you going to build an umbrella over the US?

Who wants to live in a giant cocoon? Donâ€™t you think people would continuously worry what the rest of the world was up to? Why donâ€™t you manufacture a giant lead condom and live in it?

(1) Yes I do
(2) Kinda
(3) I'm not
(4) no one
(5) Maybe
(6) It desensitizes and is akward to put on.

Skogan

Vic · 05-24-2002, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Iori Yagami
The problem is, that if we do that, we will be crucified by the whole world. Things that the USA, Russia, or France can do, we can`t...

Well, let us just speculate for a moment.
If you would do that, what could this "crucifixion" look like in practical terms? An economic blockade? Military intervention (by what countries?)? More attacks on Diaspora Jews? Open support for Palestinian militants, such as massive arms deliveries?

My guess is that there would be no serious repercussions since Israel-bashing has already reached maximum saturation level, at least in the Western world, or it is quite close to it.

Iori Yagami · 05-24-2002, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Vic

Well, let us just speculate for a moment.
If you would do that, what could this "crucifixion" look like in practical terms? An economic blockade? Military intervention (by what countries?)? More attacks on Diaspora Jews? Open support for Palestinian militants, such as massive arms deliveries?

My guess is that there would be no serious repercussions since Israel-bashing has already reached maximum saturation level, at least in the Western world, or it is quite close to it.

They might turn us into a second Yugoslavia. They might trial our leaders at international courts of "law".
Actually, when I think about, you`re right. We can`t get any more fux0red than we are now

JustPat · 05-25-2002, 06:09 PM

Ok, so where does a biblical "Armeggedon" fit in to this discussion? Seems almost plausible if the major powers for democracy were to take a hands off approach to the ME. Didn't Russia once come close to invading Israel?

**NewsGuy** · 05-25-2002, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Vic
My guess is that there would be no serious repercussions since Israel-bashing has already reached maximum saturation level, at least in the Western world, or it is quite close to it.

Agreed.

What worse could be done to Israel realistically?

JustPat · 05-25-2002, 06:18 PM

If the prophesy is as accurate as those of the prophets of old, Israel will never be messed with again. The enemy gets eradicated on the battle field and in their homeland.

elke · 05-26-2002, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by JustPat
Ok, so where does a biblical "Armeggedon" fit in to this discussion? Seems almost plausible if the major powers for democracy were to take a hands off approach to the ME. Didn't Russia once come close to invading Israel?

My uncle was serving his mandatory army term in 1967. According to him, they were being readied to be put on the planes to go to Egypt. He told me that he would have run away, if they did that...