as disengagement nears, settlers community hits up

[Mediocrates]

Not so sure. After all it's not real Nazis doing this. It's other Jews. It's clearly for rhetorical effect. The idea that Jews would be 'relocated' or 'resettled' is enough provocation from the government and at least as bad imagery.

[KSO]

Not so sure. After all it's not real Nazis doing this. It's other Jews. It's clearly for rhetorical effect. The idea that Jews would be 'relocated' or 'resettled' is enough provocation from the government and at least as bad imagery.

What's so bad about it, the goverment does it only for their own protection, after all they are not and probably won't be welcomed by Palestinians in the near future, so the goverment can't be responsible to what happens to them after the return of the territories.

[Mediocrates]

I know you come from a culture where dissent is typically met with arrest, disappearance and bullet in the head but for the rest of us a healthly, vitriolic and offensive resistance to the state is a good thing.

[sharonbn]

Medio, here's some "vitriolic and offensive resistance to the state is a good thing" for you

Dichter: Far-right activists may create pretext to fire on troops

A few dozen extremists are planning to spread rumors that the Israel Defense Forces is going to position sharpshooters to fire on settlers during the Gaza pullout, so they will have an excuse to open fire on troops, Shin Bet security services head Avi Dichter told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Tuesday.

Dichter told the committee that extremists had not given up the idea of a strike on the Temple Mount and they had no problem stealing weapons from the IDF.

When asked by MK Haim Ramon why the group has not been arrested, Dichter replied, "unfortunately, not everything we try to do survives the test of legality."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/522985.html

[Mediocrates]

But it's all a lot of hooey in the end, no? For we've heard these alarms for years and years and nothing has happened. The big bad boogeyman hasn't blown up al Aqsa or anything else. It's a cardboard enemy you've created to justify your own inflammatory rhetoric.

[sharonbn]

the shabac is also warning that far right extremists are planning an assassination of the PM or a minister or high ranking official.
I remember the exact words that head of shabac, Dichter used: "They are actively wishing that harm comes to the PM."

would you still say that "The big bad boogeyman hasn't killed a PM, or anyone else"?
would you call this "inflammatory rhetoric"?

[Mediocrates]

I actively wish harm to come to lots of people both elected and not.

You have to at some point either trust your own people to act like Israelis and not some nefarious cabal of nutcases or, you can simply marginalize and imprison everyone. What is it you think those people are trying to tell you, fundamentally, that you're not listening to? what is it you think they think they could or would gain by committing such an act?

[sharonbn]

I actively wish harm to come to lots of people both elected and not.

Is there a Jew among them? well I don't wish harm to anyone, except those who wish harm to me, like Pal terrorists, etc.

to actively wish harm means planning an action, not just having wishful thoughts (that is passively wish harm. that is what I do) I really really hope you're not in the midst of planning to stone / hit / shoot someone.

You have to at some point either trust your own people to act like Israelis and not some nefarious cabal of nutcases or, you can simply marginalize and imprison everyone.

You got it upside down.
You have to at some point stop trusting a group of people after they proove time after time to be violent and murderous. After the first Jewish underground, second Jewish underground, after Goldstein, after Avrushmi, after Popper, after Amir - how many murders and terror acts do YOU need before stop trusting these groups of people??? all of these are "lone gunners"? the sheer quantity of these murderers and terrorists is not enough to proove these people mean business and are not "cardboard enemy"???

and while we're on the subject of "inflammatory rhetoric" saying "you can simply marginalize and imprison everyone" is inflammatory rhetoric. there are ways to deal with these threats. that is why we have the shabac and it was successful (most of the time) in stopping these extremists. You don't have to imprison "everyone". you do have to be aware of the warning signs and not just dismiss it as "inflammatory rhetoric".

What is it you think those people are trying to tell you, fundamentally, that you're not listening to? what is it you think they think they could or would gain by committing such an act?

I have an idea what these people are trying to tell me:
"We have absolutely zero respect for the Israeli law and for gov't decisions.
We have absolutely no moral inhibitations and will stop at nothing.
All means are open in achieving our political goal. If people, Jewish people, have to die to achieve it - so be it."
This is what I heard from the likes of Yigal Amir - did you hear something else?

[Mediocrates]

You got it upside down.
You have to at some point stop trusting a group of people after they prove time after time to be violent and murderous. After the first Jewish underground, second Jewish underground, after Goldstein, after Avrushmi, after Popper, after Amir - how many murders and terror acts do YOU need before stop trusting these groups of people???

It has nothing to do with trust and everything to do with credible law enforcement without a lot of running around and talking about it.

all of these are "lone gunners"? the sheer quantity of these murderers and terrorists is not enough to proove these people mean business and are not "cardboard enemy"???

There's quantity and then there's quantity. It seems that anyone sufficiently motivated, armed and organized could accomplish an awful lot of what you describe could happen. But it hasn't. Hell someone that bent on destruction could hire Palestinians to do it for them, something they're already pretty good at.

I can fully appreciate your fears and worries about being corroded from the inside and what it would mean if something horrible came from other Jews. Believe me I do. But there really is a huge difference between cutting out Orange Stars and organizing a right wing death squad.

and while we're on the subject of "inflammatory rhetoric" saying "you can simply marginalize and imprison everyone" is inflammatory rhetoric. there are ways to deal with these threats. that is why we have the shabac and it was successful (most of the time) in stopping these extremists. You don't have to imprison "everyone". you do have to be aware of the warning signs and not just dismiss it as "inflammatory rhetoric".

I respectively beg to differ. We here in America locked up a few thousand people after 9-11 for pretty much whatever we felt like and it was huge blow to all of our civil rights. We cowered under our own prognostications about some distant foreign devil planning to do nothing in particular and everything in general. I worry deeply that your country's reaction to real or perceived threats will be a kneejerk round of administrative detentions of all/most settlers under the rubric that anyone who resists being thrown out of their home is an enemy of the state.

I have an idea what these people are trying to tell me:
"We have absolutely zero respect for the Israeli law and for gov't decisions.
We have absolutely no moral inhibitations and will stop at nothing.
All means are open in achieving our political goal. If people, Jewish people, have to die to achieve it - so be it."
This is what I heard from the likes of Yigal Amir - did you hear something else?

Yes I heard that if you show no mercy you will be shown no mercy.

[sharonbn]

It has nothing to do with trust and everything to do with credible law enforcement without a lot of running around and talking about it.

you're wrong.
Trust, or mistrust, is what determines how law authorities react to warning signs, like incitement and provocations. If a Rabbi, or group of Rabbis will issue "din rodef" on Sharon - the reaction of law authorities is based solely on trust. Trust that the common people who haer the issue will treat as a 'mere protest' or as an order to actually go and kill the PM. Let me remind you that prior to the murder of Rabin, there were many warning signs in the form of pictures of Rabin in SS uniforms, pictures of Rabin in Kafia, coffin with Rabin's name on them - all 'mere protests' that aimed to de-humanize Rabin. then came the 'din rodef'. and still, law authorities didn't do anything. why? because they trusted the people to know the boundaries for themselves. Nobody believed that anyone would take the din rodef seriously because we all trusted everyone.

So it IS all about trust.

About "around and talking about it.": there is a saying in Hebrew:
מי שנכווה ברותחין נזהר בצוננין
which says if you got burned in boiling water, you'll be cautious in cold water.
The media didn't treat the warning signs before Rabin's assassination seriously for the same reason that the law authorities didn't - no one believed that anyone would actually do it. "Its just words." Now they magnify every warning signs, because they got burned the first time.

There's quantity and then there's quantity. It seems that anyone sufficiently motivated, armed and organized could accomplish an awful lot of what you describe could happen. But it hasn't. Hell someone that bent on destruction could hire Palestinians to do it for them, something they're already pretty good at.

but all, ALL the murderers, terrorists, fanatics - all come from the far right. There is no single political murderer from the left wing. not a single one. The leaders of the left wing do not incite their followers to act violently.
so its not a genral view about "anyone sufficiently motivated". its only a small group from the Israeli society who consistently express disrespect for the law, who express violent intentions, and who actually implement these intentions.

I can fully appreciate your fears and worries about being corroded from the inside and what it would mean if something horrible came from other Jews. Believe me I do. But there really is a huge difference between cutting out Orange Stars and organizing a right wing death squad.

The discussions has moved beyond the Orange star propaganda campaign. We are talking about head of shabac warning about settlers creating pretext to fire on troops.

I respectively beg to differ. We here in America locked up a few thousand people after 9-11 for pretty much whatever we felt like and it was huge blow to all of our civil rights. We cowered under our own prognostications about some distant foreign devil planning to do nothing in particular and everything in general. I worry deeply that your country's reaction to real or perceived threats will be a kneejerk round of administrative detentions of all/most settlers under the rubric that anyone who resists being thrown out of their home is an enemy of the state.

there are no such plans to do what you describe.
Why everything has to be so black and white? WE either dismiss settlers statements as "vitriolic and offensive resistance to the state" which "is a good thing" or we throw all settlers to the prison cell???
I already said, there are ways to deal with extremists and fanatics witout resorting to detenetion camps and gulags. We just have to take their rethoric seriously, because they prooved to actually act upon their words.

Yes I heard that if you show no mercy you will be shown no mercy.

Exactly. Those who show no mercy towards their fellow man deserve to be treated with the full extent of the law. the sonner the better.

[Mediocrates]

What on earth does 'taking them seriously' mean if not what I describe? I'll tell you what you should take seriously. It's the utter disgust and disappointment and fury they feel for you. Not hate. Loathing.


And what are you going to do with them once you herd them all off their land and into some other place? Think those 8,000 and their 80,000 supporters are going to want to shake your hand? You think that you'll have any credibility with them?

Tell you what, my friend, move those Jews and in 2 years, tops, you'll hear them use the language of Palestinians in refugee camps. Or Indians on the Rez.

And for the record, your Rabin experience had a lot more to do with your illusions about yourselves and how you believed you were this happy if contentious collective that could never ever ever ever have something this terrible happen especially from the inside. Advanced early warning systems to protect your official air transports to high level meetings, got that problem locked down. But even imagining that an Amir would want to kill and be able to kill a PM, that completely escaped you didn't it?

You DO know why US Presidents don't travel in convertibles anymore, yes?

[sharonbn]

What on earth does 'taking them seriously' mean if not what I describe? I'll tell you what you should take seriously. It's the utter disgust and disappointment and fury they feel for you. Not hate. Loathing.

I already described several times what 'taking them seriously'. they can feel whatever they like about me, I cannot do anything about it. aslong as they obey the law and don't act violently.

And what are you going to do with them once you herd them all off their land and into some other place? Think those 8,000 and their 80,000 supporters are going to want to shake your hand? You think that you'll have any credibility with them?

The same thing that France did with a million French settlers that were evacuated from Algeria. They will be integrated into Israeli society in the green line and they are welcone here. I don't need them to shake my hand I just don't want them to shoot me.

Tell you what, my friend, move those Jews and in 2 years, tops, you'll hear them use the language of Palestinians in refugee camps. Or Indians on the Rez.

So we can expect to see them using other similar Pal typical expressions of resistence?

And for the record, your Rabin experience had a lot more to do with your illusions about yourselves and how you believed you were this happy if contentious collective that could never ever ever ever have something this terrible happen especially from the inside. Advanced early warning systems to protect your official air transports to high level meetings, got that problem locked down. But even imagining that an Amir would want to kill and be able to kill a PM, that completely escaped you didn't it?

Yes. we used to trust people in Israel. There is a group of them we don't trust anymore to obey basic human laws like "thou shall not kill". Recently we stopped trusting them to uphold values and taboos that are sacred to Israeli society like the Holocaust.
if the head of shabac says they're planning to use firearms in the evacuation, then they should act beforehand, make arrests and so on.