A case of split personality?

[takeo]

i forgot this last one.


"Oh, I can well imagine the scene: Russian-Jewish emigrants from France on sentimental trip "back home", bursting in and asking tactless questions no one really wanted to hear let alone reply to. Your parents must have certainly sent anyone who wasn't there for the KGB screaming down the hill - hardly noticing it, of course, if they were so sure that they "know everything about life in the Soviet-union" - the most alien of all alien Westerners one can think of, of the arrogant variety and for practical purposes the ones whose contacts to the local population would arouse the strongest interest of the "authorities". A former Soviet citizen myself, I'd have taken greatest care myself to keep as much distance as possible. "

LOL
your image is quite biased. As you know Russians are nice people, and the soviet-period was not hell, if not the communist party wouldn't still be the biggest party in Russian parliament and even have the absolute majority trough democratic elections in countries as moldova or Belarus.
My parents didn't came there to lecture the Russians about what they should and shouldn't do, most Russians are very nice people with a wide range of opinions, as well the Jewish Russians, and i still have wonderfull memories about it and some friends.

"And it wasn't just about the Jews either. I've known people in Moscow who lost their jobs in the very same 80ies for the crime of baptizing their children Russian Orthodox. "

well, if this is true it is definately one of the downsides of the soviet-regime, which however doesn't mean it was a) anti-semitic b) had no qualities at all.
by the way i heard myself stories about burocracy, the system was not paradise either, but i would say still better than Russia as it is today, with lots of poverty and corruption worse than in Soviet-times.



"(Btw., it's off-topic, but in case you are interested I can provide you with the reasons why some German, Italian and Swiss employers don't like hiring Frenchmen. With due respect for your patriotism, please don't over-estimate the reputation of your countrymen.)"

many thanks, but no, i'm not interested in another francebashing, i know that France has good employment, good jobs (better than in italy or eastern germany for example) and a very well social security system. french may be lasier than Germans (but than again they live better) but more hard-working than italians or israeli. i never said France is perfect, it has its downsides, but confronted with so much bias, i will defend my country;
in any case i think the german reputation in Europe is worse than the French.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by elke
I hope this helps clarify the situation for you.

Elke, that was fascinating.

Thank you for posting that!

[L@mplighterM]

I?ll second that elke!

Actually it?s right on target from everything that I?ve ever read about the former Soviet Union. It somehow becomes more alive when I saw it posted on the forum.

I?ve given up on the flaming Arab a long time ago and I put him on ignore a long time ago.

[takeo]

"Other than that, can you ask me why so many fled to Germany and Cyprus and even to poland and ofcourse some left to CIS states like Latvia and Estonia! "

Latvia and Estonia are no CIS-countries.
Russians flee Russia because since 15 years the Russian economy is falling apart.

"The Census really do not mean anything. The best senses that was taken was in Jerusalem between 1880 and 1920. The Ottaman empire took the census in Jerusalem and Area and i belive found that there was 20,000 people. And half were jewish and Half were Muslims.
The fact is that alot of the jews immigrated to Israel, but there are also jews who lived in Israel and especailly the Jerusalem area for along time. And same with the Muslim Arabs. Many of them had came from other parts as well. Im not saying directly to Israel, but after many immigrant jews came, on top of the British Mandate, there was opprotunity. "

in jerusalem there were many Jews who always lived in israel for many centuries. but of course always a small minority, except maybe in jerusalem.
yes there was immigration, nothing wrong with that, but it has to happen in a legal circumstance, there is a difference between immigrating in compliance with the laws of your host-country, or immigrating as Attila The Hun did, with military force.
if i come to live in your house as a friend or as an armed squatter it will make a difference won't it?

[takeo]

thanks elke, that was indeed a very interesting post, even if i find it difficult to combine with the histories of my family.
I was too young when i travelled to the soviet-union myself.

it all depends what you call "persecuted"...
we all agree that no Jews in Russia under soviet-rule (excluding of course the bloody civil war and WWII) were slaughtered purely because they were Jews, ok? this was already a great accomplishment compared to the past. Also i hope you will agree with me, being Jewish didn't necessarily mean a block to any carreer perspectives. (maybe at the beginning of the 50's)


"My father has a Ph.D. in electronic engineering, and my mother has a Masters Degree in Russian Language and Literature. We were far from starving in Russia, so "practical considerations" were not an issue. In fact, one of my father's jobs when we just came to the US was sweeping a furniture factory. Another job was installing window panes. Far cry from Senior Scientist (a literal translation of his job title in Russia) at a Research and Development outfit, dedicated to telephony and communications, wouldn't you say? "

yes i heard that kind of stories form many people, it must have been hard for highly-qualified people as your family. My parents were more lucky and immidiately had a good job, in fact it was for the job that they came to Russia.

"The reason we left is because there was no room to BREATHE there. While some of it was common to any Soviet citizen, there was an added dimension because we were Jewish. From the "evil eye" of your neighbor, to unfair grades in school, to the constant fear of what you say and when you say it, to bribes and discrimination. In one word, as my great-grandmother used to call it "Hozereiland" ("Land of the Pigs" in Yiddish). I personally have never been beaten up in school because I was Jewish, but I have had fights over it with classmates. My father, on the other hand, DID get "Bey Zhida" (you should know what that means. If you don't, ask your parents. They should be familiar with this concept). "

i have heard that expression before, it is a very sad memory of the russian tsaristic past.
My parents in their youth didn't have such experiences, or at least never talked about it. My grandmother told me about such experiences, when in the early 50's many Jews were unofficially accused of being "cosmopolites" and lost all high positions and had to endure quite some insults, after a few years things got back to normal. But my family told me that deep inside some Russians a kind of nationalistic pride is hiding and that some still see Jews as a kind of evil, but such feelings were certainly not encouraged by the system, on the contrary. Antisemitism is soviet-Russia was never brutal or systematic but rather upon individuals. that's what i heard. In that sence the soviet-policy was good because it removed all physical and other barriers between the Jews and other people so that they became almost undistinguishable. But even if my parents and their family were not distinguishable from Russians, the Jewish identity always remained, inside, and on the identity cart.
What do you mean breathe? i think it is a very subjective feeling. my parents never felt oppressed or limited in their youth, ok, russian society is less individual than American or French, but in Russia i remember people listening to nirvana-lyrics, i heard about poets as vysotsky making political satire in the 60's, only people who really engaged in "subversive" activities as political non-autorized organisations or non- autorized religious cults could expect some day a visit from the secret service.

"We were normal people. We did not become political activists or anything of the sort. My parents have attended, at our friends' house, some Hebrew courses and once we all saw slides of Jerusalem there. This was done in a blacked-out house (all the windows closed and draped, doors locked), and everyone come in individually, while looking to see if we were followed. We spoke in a whisper, because if anyone were to overhear, our whole bunch would have ended up in a slammer. I'll leave it to your imagination what would follow from there. "

my family showed interest in Israel in the 60's when they were already in france, but never in Russia, not because they were afraid, but because the idea of leaving the Soviet-union had not appeared to them, my family as many Russians had a quite confortable life in those days. They were also never interested in religion, i think this applies for many Russian Jews;



i"I tell you: the one thing I will NEVER forgive Russia is not anti-semitism per se, but the fact that they stripped us of any knowledge and understanding of who we are, any pride we may feel in what we are, and simultaneously did not erase that prejudice. Anti-semitism was - and apparently is, - alive and well there, while the victims of it don't even understand what it is that's different about them. "

maybe true that learning Judaism was certainly not propagated, and that the aim was to integrate the Jews completely into Russian society, a goal wich pretty much succeeded but isn't equal to antisemitism. yet everyone could search for himself his or her roots, nobody will or could prevend that. I think you can cherish your roots, but it shouldn't prevend you from being French, American or russian, or marry with a non Jewish girl/man and contribute to the etnic mix. That's why i hate the idea of zionism, why should jews separate themselves from other people and country? to me it's not a progressive movement but a backwards movement in the time.

[elke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
we all agree that no Jews in Russia under soviet-rule (excluding of course the bloody civil war and WWII) were slaughtered purely because they were Jews, ok?

No, not OK. It's not true. Stalin killed quite a few, sent others to the GULAG, and "ethnically cleansed" yet others to Birabidjan (section of Siberia). By the time I was born, the slaughter ended and nobody went to Birabidjan. However, the rest of it remained the same.

this was already a great accomplishment compared to the past.

Yes, a "great accomplishment".

Also i hope you will agree with me, being Jewish didn't necessarily mean a block to any carreer perspectives. (maybe at the beginning of the 50's)

You obviously did not read my Post #34, if you can make such a statement. I should also mention that my father wrote a couple of technical books all by his lonesome, which could only be published if he added his superior's non-Jewish name to the credits.

yes i heard that kind of stories form many people, it must have been hard for highly-qualified people as your family. My parents were more lucky and immidiately had a good job, in fact it was for the job that they came to Russia.

Good for them! We have friends who came here about 10 years ago, the husband was a professor at the Institute of Cables and Communications in St. Petersburg and the wife - a dentist. They are now a bookkeeper and dental assistant, respectively, with no prospects for anything better (they were in their 50's when they came and their English is mediocre).

i have heard that expression before, it is a very sad memory of the russian tsaristic past.

"Russian tsaristic past", my foot! We are talking about '40s to '60s here, as far as my father is concerned.

My parents in their youth didn't have such experiences, or at least never talked about it. My grandmother told me about such experiences, when in the early 50's many Jews were unofficially accused of being "cosmopolites" and lost all high positions and had to endure quite some insults, after a few years things got back to normal. But my family told me that deep inside some Russians a kind of nationalistic pride is hiding and that some still see Jews as a kind of evil, but such feelings were certainly not encouraged by the system, on the contrary.

Well, looking at the situation there right now, it looks like it's back.

Antisemitism is soviet-Russia was never brutal or systematic but rather upon individuals. that's what i heard.

You heard wrong.

But even if my parents and their family were not distinguishable from Russians, the Jewish identity always remained, inside, and on the identity cart.

Bingo! Not to mention that others never missed a chance to point it out.

What do you mean breathe? i think it is a very subjective feeling. my parents never felt oppressed or limited in their youth, ok, russian society is less individual than American or French, but in Russia i remember people listening to nirvana-lyrics, i heard about poets as vysotsky making political satire in the 60's, only people who really engaged in "subversive" activities as political non-autorized organisations or non- autorized religious cults could expect some day a visit from the secret service.

The key to your quandary is in the definition of the "political non-authorized organizations or non-authorized religious cults".

my family showed interest in Israel in the 60's when they were already in france, but never in Russia, not because they were afraid, but because the idea of leaving the Soviet-union had not appeared to them, my family as many Russians had a quite confortable life in those days. They were also never interested in religion, i think this applies for many Russian Jews;

Yes, most Russian Jews are not interested in religion. However, the question arises: how can you decide whether or not you are interested, when you know nothing about it?


maybe true that learning Judaism was certainly not propagated, and that the aim was to integrate the Jews completely into Russian society, a goal wich pretty much succeeded but isn't equal to antisemitism. yet everyone could search for himself his or her roots, nobody will or could prevend that. I think you can cherish your roots, but it shouldn't prevend you from being French, American or russian, or marry with a non Jewish girl/man and contribute to the etnic mix.

There was no information available on anything Jewish. The closest we came were some Sholom Aleichem stories.

That's why i hate the idea of zionism, why should jews separate themselves from other people and country? to me it's not a progressive movement but a backwards movement in the time.

You can agree or disagree with the idea of Zionism, but the Jews can separate themselves the same way the French do. There is a shared heritage, history, culture, food, etc. etc.

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
your image is quite biased. As you know Russians are nice people, and the soviet-period was not hell, if not the communist party wouldn't still be the biggest party in Russian parliament and even have the absolute majority trough democratic elections in countries as moldova or Belarus.

"democratic elections in Belarus", for one...
In case someone else here cares: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/countr...t=30&Expandall - all of it I suppose just an issue of

Originally posted by takeo
only people who really engaged in "subversive" activities as political non-autorized organisations or non- autorized religious cults could expect some day a visit from the secret service.

nothing to worry about...

I give up, sorry. I'm getting seriously concerned about my health: I think I'll die of laughter reading your postings.

One last question: are you acting the clown on purpose, by chance?

[Pushtak18]

Israel did not attack egypt! Once again, you are reffering to the 1956 war. Yes; after Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt all attacked Israel in in June 1967. In retaliation Israel striked them and that is why we call it the 6 day war. If Israel hadn't attacked them in retaltion to there invasion of Israel, than the war would have went on for maybe 3 months?
Don't detter israel's success...and if you dare call the 1967 war an aggression by Israel than quote the late Nasser in what he said before the war where he wanted the end to Israel.

Don't think stupid here. We are talking 1967. Theres no land occupied by Israel, there is no occupation, and none of whatever you want to call it. It was they who went in a lost and yet you blame israel for it. Like always; you blame israel for everything, you ignorant, biased, racist monk!


You say so many times that Israel made mistakes yet you never ever talk about it? what mistakes has Israel made? Is it Occupation?? Did you give Israel another choice? You bombarded Israel with 3 major wars in from 1948 to 1967, not to mention the average shootout and the ambushes that happened here and there. You are making a grave mistake right now when you choose to ignore Israels right to exist in our own choice, while you explore and depend on Hamas trying to make the calls. We had a ligitimate reason and even if there is occupation and settlements, israel is willing to negotiate. Call the settlements the mistake, but israel is willing to fix it. Don't call Islamic/Arab/Regime/Baath Party aggression that was made before you were born israel's one in 2002. Don't clarify and modify history because it is skanky and one day historians will turn there back on you! So watch it!

I'm waiting for the historians to urinate all over the french flag one day! I live for that day!!!

The palestinians did not Uprise against the British and especially the Turikish because they were afraid. How dare you say to me that Israel colonized, while the British and the Turkish objective in Israel was to make a colony. Right now you just prove your stupidity and ignorance at its best. You want to go talk to people, go to Chile, there is a big palestinians community there which was immigrants who fled the turkish regime back in the 19th century. Right now there are 300,000 and yes most of them are chritians. And the fact is that when you ask where they live, not one lived in Modern day Israel, most would they you that they lived in Jericho, or Bethlehme, or Ramallah, but not Israel!!! So what do you want from Israel now?


Takeo...Stop making things up! Its not a one hit wonder here or a phenomenom! Arabs hate israel because they are taught hatred. its not personal decisions here. If you are taught to hate your infidels you do so, you do cooperate. Israel was hated before there was the so called "deprivation of the Palestinians"!!! So in some terms they hated us just cause we are jews (Sign of anti-semitism)!! And also, we were hated 30 years and more before we ever had a state in the Arab world. iraqi jews had feared for there life and one of the things that made them re-decide was that the Baath Party (saddams and Bashars party) took over King Faisal, which many jews feared...there was the Al-QUasimda riots which killed 43 jews in the summer of 1924!! That wasn't zionism? that wasn't uprising? that was pure anti-semitsim! SO STOP IT!

Listen, we had a peace process...we had the ups and downs of it. We have blame on all side, even if im Israeli i take responsibility. But the fact is that Circa 2000, we we're all sitting down to negotiate on this. We had a serious issue, who blumpet it off??

And tell me this?? What did you have to lose?? Everything? you lost your own people in rhetoric talk, you lost a statehood, you lost freedome and hope for your people!!! Even if you didn't like it we were willing to negotiate more! Settlements are not the issue. Israel had settelements in the Sinai, yet we dismantled them and went back to our borders. With a peace deal we can do the same.
Remember!!!!
Israel owns roughly 1.8 percent in homes in the west bank! But ofcourse occupies 40%!!!!! If you see if, we would dismantle the settlements that are in the middle of the west bank, and make them in the populated area, where they can be the ulitmate suburban towns with 3-7% of area! Those area will be converted to land for the palestinians somewhere else.

Also, please refrain from lies such as colonialization! Look at your cocky french colonilzation and compare Israel!!!

What do you mean that the palestinians don't have a choice!!!! They obviously don't...because i think if they lived for the past 50 years and there kids had kids, than i think Jordanians should make them citizens!

Listen!!! Don't call me rude and don't dictate my life with international rules! Those rules are bogus and if they work one way they wouldn't work the other.
You think when my granparents came to Israel they had money or wealth?? NO!!!! But they had a dream, and a vision.... Whereas even if you have a palestinian state today you would never have been free economic and deomocratic!!!!!!! Israel gave chances to its people, never deprived them! don't say we discrimnate muslims and arabs because we have muslims and arabs living inside israel! Infact, talk to the Coach of Maccabi Yaffo, he is 53 years old and he is an arab, he loves and respect israel, and you know where he came from...Kuwait...
Want to know more about him???!! you would spit your lies on here!

[Pushtak18]

Im sorry to interupt you daily lies, but Zionism far from Arab Nationalism...maybe in the begining when Arab Nationalism started, did they have something in common, but after words it began to be just propoganda to try and get more land. Ask Qatar and Bahrain why they were fighting for. Also, Mumar Ghdaffi was a high knowledgeable Arab Nationalistic..He wanted a huge Arab Empire/Country without any jews, chritians and kurds!!!!! He would have them killed....that was one of his famous speeches in 85/86!

Zionism didn't have anything to talk about Jewish people going into land that was inhabbitted and creating catosraphic measures. For all your knowledge goes for, you didn't know that perhaps the jewish state could have been in Uganda, since it was part of Britian! And Stalin always wanted to make a self rule state of the jews, but never really came up with it, and everyone know that he was willing to wipe jews out of the map when he did so.
Israel never started all 4 wars. Its insane to say that! If you attack a country first it doesn't mean that you are the starters of wars, nor are you the good guys. If that was the case than the Arabs and your propoganda would have gotten off scotch free!

Is that so.....isn't it true what many say in France about Arabs....when someone tells me about the Marseille Slummer or Paris ghetto, not many do refer to lower income family, instead they refer to Arabs. Im not saying its right,but many politicians critizise the arabs. Unlike the Jews, whom have integrated into French society, the Arabs have not. It seems like they have a country inside a country, and yet some of them don't work and are costing French tax payers billions. And im not saying that its right, or wrong, but you should have a solution for that, after all, your french!
And so for Israel, we do have Arabs working in all major sectors. Infact, i think out of all the Arab adults in Israel there are maybe 5% of whom are unemployed. For many examples, i work in an office, and the secretary in my office is an Arab from Nazareth, in a more open sense, back when i was in school i had not 1 but 2 arab teachers........ one for science, the other for Arabic (learning the language). So don't try to say that Israel does not give them job! We give them full and right opprotunity. Just look at the Israeli NT, there are arabs (2 of them in the NT) who represent israel and im proud that they do represent israel, because it just goes to show how much diversity there is inside israel. And when you call us "DIRTY JEWS" in 2003 for EURO 2004 (which israel is in the french group) remember those 2 arabs.....

"those territories are already overpopulated with refugees. Without a solution for the refugee-question, there won't be peace, simple, the Arab world and the world will not accept your choice, the war will continue if you will react in such way."

Do you understand that my country is going to be already populated if you gonna put more refugees in.....It just goes to show that the Palestinians even if they lived in what would be now palestine, they still don't want to live in it. Which means that there will be a guranteed 7 million participants in your pre-emptive civil war against Israel. If the world wants catosrophic measures in the near future, than i guess when they accept this they do! And i am sure not all do accept this. Canada and the USA, alon with Brtiain and as well as France are willing to help with the refugee issue! If all the countries in the arab world were to take resonsibility (FINALLY) for there mistakes and make peace+ allow all refugees to be in there country than all they have to do is for each arab country to accept no more than 160,000 refugees, now! Thats only 25 countries...there are more countries that are willing to help! If they are around 75 countries even Israel is willing to help...than 53,000 refugees will go and live and get land.
This is not about Right of Retrurn to there homeland, this is about people who left home, due to a war that was started by the people who know host them and for 50 years they lived without rights and citizenships in those countrys. I gurantee you!! If the Jordanians were to have some sanity, they would grant them citizenship 40 years ago, and the palestina Refugeee problem wouldn't be here! Remember!!!!! Not once arafat said in Oslo, in Wye river and in Hebron Agreement that he wants the refugees back!! its his odd choice and its not going to work! Its like he made it the last minute!!

Terrorism is not cause by war and occupation. Terrorism is caused by peace. Terrorism against israel, directly at Israeli Civilians started in 1994. Nothing happened between 1982-1987..and in 1987 most were inside the West bank, and it wasn't much.... Terrorism started because the peace processs started? why is that? it is because the people who commit the terrorism are the same people who object to peace with Israel. Its not a matter of time or a matter of delay in Peace. These people wanted anarchy, everytime you had a breakthrough you also had a bombing on buses in Israel. It was to make Israelis more angry at the palestinians, but time prevailed and Israelis sought peace, even after the bombings and now they still do! So don't be very Naaive and blame the Israelis for this! Its the palestinians who perpetrate this acts of violence. And it doesn't mean that its because of settelement or delay or peace or net fairness...These people started to be against it. And in so forth are not arguing for the stop of occupation, but vice-versa; which they want MORE OCCUPATION and MORE CONTROL BY THE IDF so they can stop.

Why didn't they bomb a bus in 1992 in Israel?? it is because they didn't have the autonomy to hide a bomb factory in Nablus or Jenin and have Israel find it in 2 seconds. When we have them Autonomy, they used it to get extremism powerful! And now when they want to reform you are awarding these islamic criminals with a job at the Cabinet of the PA! How dare you, shall i say!


Build them new houses??? Forget it!! Im not building them new houses? How come this peace agreement is in the mixture of building new houses and compensating just one side. We both been in tragedys and we both suffered alot, on eighter side, and yet this peace process is for a state not to compensate one another. If they want, we'll build them a house in Jordan which is not that full (unlike) israel, instead of in Israel!!!!!! So get it threw you thick head!

[Vic]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I?ve given up on the flaming Arab a long time ago and I put him on ignore a long time ago.

Just done the same - for a while, at least. The pages have become much shorter

Btw, is "Arab" generally accepted as a pejorative term in modern American usage?

[takeo]

about Belarus according to most foreign observers the last elections were fair, if not the media-coverage (but that is true in for example Italy as well, not to mention Russia or Ukrain, and also Nader never got the same media-coverage as bush or Gore).
in moldova the communists got more than 70% of the votes in elections declared free and fair by all foreign observers and the ocse.

"No, not OK. It's not true. Stalin killed quite a few, sent others to the GULAG, and "ethnically cleansed" yet others to Birabidjan (section of Siberia). By the time I was born, the slaughter ended and nobody went to Birabidjan. However, the rest of it remained the same. "

I don't think anyone came in the Gulag only because he was Jew... during Stalinist times many jews were at high positions, even so much that Hitler accused the Soviet-union to be a "creation of international Jewry".
Birobidjan was the Soviet-answer to zionism, they created a Jewish homeland in the Soviet-union. I agree that the idea failed and most Soviet-jews never considered moving there, only a few percent of the population of birobidjan is actually jewish.

.

"Yes, a "great accomplishment". "

yes, it was, no more pogroms occured, the heavy persecution of Jewish minority ceased;



"You obviously did not read my Post #34, if you can make such a statement. I should also mention that my father wrote a couple of technical books all by his lonesome, which could only be published if he added his superior's non-Jewish name to the credits. "

I said " not necessarily", many jews still had high positions in the 60's, 70's and 80's, even if some others were discriminated because they were Jewish. that's what i mean, it was not systematic anti-semitism.


""Russian tsaristic past", my foot! We are talking about '40s to '60s here, as far as my father is concerned. "

OK, but it was most widely known to be the words initiating the pogroms at the turn of the century.


"Well, looking at the situation there right now, it looks like it's back. "

Could be, some devellopments in current russia are frightening.





"Yes, most Russian Jews are not interested in religion. However, the question arises: how can you decide whether or not you are interested, when you know nothing about it? "

People had their families to teach them the religion, and some jews are still religious and went to synagogues, even in soviet times, so everyone interested in religion had the opportunity to learn about the religion.




"You can agree or disagree with the idea of Zionism, but the Jews can separate themselves the same way the French do. There is a shared heritage, history, culture, food, etc. etc."

The same food? Moroccan Jews eat different than we do, etc. The same about culture, mentality, etc;
the only thing all Jews have in common is a religious past and history, and maybe some genetic links, nothing more.

The french have much more in common with eachother than Jews, i have more in common with French people than with you or an ethiopian Jew;

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Vic
Btw, is "Arab" generally accepted as a pejorative term in modern American usage?

"Arab" is not pejorative in any way.

[elke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
about Belarus according to most foreign observers the last elections were fair, if not the media-coverage (but that is true in for example Italy as well, not to mention Russia or Ukrain, and also Nader never got the same media-coverage as bush or Gore).
in moldova the communists got more than 70% of the votes in elections declared free and fair by all foreign observers and the ocse.

Nader had support of approximately 4% of the American population. He, and everyone else, knew that he had no chance of winning, - as did Pat Buchanan. That's why the media coverage was spotty for him.

I don't think anyone came in the Gulag only because he was Jew... during Stalinist times many jews were at high positions, even so much that Hitler accused the Soviet-union to be a "creation of international Jewry".
Birobidjan was the Soviet-answer to zionism, they created a Jewish homeland in the Soviet-union. I agree that the idea failed and most Soviet-jews never considered moving there, only a few percent of the population of birobidjan is actually jewish.

You never heard of the ''trials of the Jewish doctors"? You never heard of the Osip Mandelshtam? Fancy using Hitler's accusations as "proof" of lack of anti-semitism in Russia. This is just too rich!

yes, it was, no more pogroms occured, the heavy persecution of Jewish minority ceased;

Bull****. The heavy persecution of Jewish minority far from ceased.

I said " not necessarily", many jews still had high positions in the 60's, 70's and 80's, even if some others were discriminated because they were Jewish. that's what i mean, it was not systematic anti-semitism.

Nothing in Russia was ever systematic, not the good not the bad, not before 1917 and not after.

OK, but it was most widely known to be the words initiating the pogroms at the turn of the century.

It was also known as the words initiating the pogroms after 1917 as well. That's my point.

Could be, some devellopments in current russia are frightening.

You said it! The only thing is: this was always there, only now it's known outside as well.

People had their families to teach them the religion, and some jews are still religious and went to synagogues, even in soviet times, so everyone interested in religion had the opportunity to learn about the religion.

Spoken like a person who has never lived there.

I don't know what else to tell you. I can see that I was right: it's impossible to convince you of anything different than what you believe, even though your knowledge is at best, spotty.

I don't know what it's like to grow up where you are the same as everyone else, so I can't understand where you are coming from. You, on the other hand, seem to have felt no difference between yourself and the others, so you can't understand how I think.

There is no question that there were some significant improvements overall since the Communists came to power. The most glaring one is the general literacy of the population. However, as far as the Jews were concerned, improvements were relatively minor. The quotas in the educational institutions were officially abolished, but remained unofficially. While the official impediments to living in larger cities in Russia proper disappeared, the "propiska" system effectively kept many out of the larger cities. The discrimination continued, as did the property appropriations. Stalin, as I mentioned earlier, continued the persecution of the Jews AS JEWS. Since no recourse for the discrimination and anti-semitism was available (i.e. courts, police protection, etc.), for all intents and purposes, the fact that these things were against the law did not matter.

There were many Jews in the Socialist and Communist movements in Russia. There is talk that Lenin himself was part-Jewish. The reason they got involved was that they were HOPING that when there is no more class struggle, and religion is not an issue, that Jews will finally become "one of us". These sentiments are understandable, but these people turned out to be wrong.

[Vic]

Oh, Elke, please. I don't want to put you on my ignore list for making the BS visible to me by quoting it

[takeo]

"Israel did not attack egypt! Once again, you are reffering to the 1956 war. Yes; after Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt all attacked Israel in in June 1967. In retaliation Israel striked them and that is why we call it the 6 day war. If Israel hadn't attacked them in retaltion to there invasion of Israel, than the war would have went on for maybe 3 months? "

ok, i see some facts are needed here...


"1967 May: Forces on both Arab and Israeli sides of the borders are mobilized.
June 5: Israel attacks Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel achieved great victories immediately, especially on the Egyptian front, where Egyptian air crafts are wiped out after effective bombing of air strips.
June 7: The strategically important Egyptian Sharm el Sheikh is captured.
— Jordan surrenders to Israel, after having lost East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
June 8: The entire Sinai comes under Israeli control. Later that evening, Israeli fights on the Egyptian front cease.
June 10: Syria surrenders, after seeing Golan Heights come under Israeli control."

http://i-cias.com/e.o/sixdaywr.htm





"You say so many times that Israel made mistakes yet you never ever talk about it? what mistakes has Israel made? Is it Occupation?? Did you give Israel another choice? You bombarded Israel with 3 major wars in from 1948 to 1967, not to mention the average shootout and the ambushes that happened here and there. You are making a grave mistake right now when you choose to ignore Israels right to exist in our own choice, while you explore and depend on Hamas trying to make the calls. We had a ligitimate reason and even if there is occupation and settlements, israel is willing to negotiate. Call the settlements the mistake, but israel is willing to fix it. Don't call Islamic/Arab/Regime/Baath Party aggression that was made before you were born israel's one in 2002. Don't clarify and modify history because it is skanky and one day historians will turn there back on you! So watch it! "

israel's mistakes: etnic cleansing in 1948 (still not reversed), 1955 war against egypt, 1967-war and occupation (the biggest mistake), colonisation, the occupation of libanon, the bombing of tunis, the israeli reaction to the second intifadeh are the most important mistakes.
Arab-palestinian mistake: the 1948-war, refusing to recognise israel for many years, supporting terrorism against civilians.

"I'm waiting for the historians to urinate all over the french flag one day! I live for that day!!! "

thanks, you're a nice person

"The palestinians did not Uprise against the British and especially the Turikish because they were afraid. How dare you say to me that Israel colonized, while the British and the Turkish objective in Israel was to make a colony. Right now you just prove your stupidity and ignorance at its best. You want to go talk to people, go to Chile, there is a big palestinians community there which was immigrants who fled the turkish regime back in the 19th century. Right now there are 300,000 and yes most of them are chritians. And the fact is that when you ask where they live, not one lived in Modern day Israel, most would they you that they lived in Jericho, or Bethlehme, or Ramallah, but not Israel!!! So what do you want from Israel now? "

OK, so if the ottomans colonised palestine it is all right for israel to do so.


"iraqi jews had feared for there life and one of the things that made them re-decide was that the Baath Party (saddams and Bashars party) took over King Faisal, which many jews feared...there was the Al-QUasimda riots which killed 43 jews in the summer of 1924!! That wasn't zionism? that wasn't uprising? that was pure anti-semitsim! SO STOP IT! "

baath only came to power in the 60's... it can't be blamed for what happened in the 20's.
yes there was anti-semitism in both the Arab world and Europe, is that a justification for everything israel did?
can i steal from someone because someone else did steal from me?

"And tell me this?? What did you have to lose?? Everything? you lost your own people in rhetoric talk, you lost a statehood, you lost freedome and hope for your people!!! Even if you didn't like it we were willing to negotiate more! Settlements are not the issue. Israel had settelements in the Sinai, yet we dismantled them and went back to our borders. With a peace deal we can do the same. "

Palestinians had few things to loose, they already lost everything, israel however has a lot to loose. israel is not prepared to negociate at all with the palestinians, and in 2000 they were not prepared to discuss about some very important issues.

"Remember!!!!
Israel owns roughly 1.8 percent in homes in the west bank! But ofcourse occupies 40%!!!!! If you see if, we would dismantle the settlements that are in the middle of the west bank, and make them in the populated area, where they can be the ulitmate suburban towns with 3-7% of area! Those area will be converted to land for the palestinians somewhere else. "

i hope so this issue will be resolved quickly;

"Also, please refrain from lies such as colonialization! Look at your cocky french colonilzation and compare Israel!!! "

Ok, france colonised, but not any more, israel still colonises... that's the difference...


"Listen!!! Don't call me rude and don't dictate my life with international rules! Those rules are bogus and if they work one way they wouldn't work the other. "

so you are prepared to be a roghe state and not recognise international laws?

"Israel gave chances to its people, never deprived them! don't say we discrimnate muslims and arabs because we have muslims and arabs living inside israel! Infact, talk to the Coach of Maccabi Yaffo, he is 53 years old and he is an arab, he loves and respect israel, and you know where he came from...Kuwait...
Want to know more about him???!! you would spit your lies on here!"

ok, so because this coach is happy in israel it means the millions of palestinians have no reason at all to complain. what chances did they get?