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A case of split personality?
My fellow Muslims, we must fight anti-Semitism
In France, Muslim intellectuals and religious leaders have come out against attacks on Jews and Jewish religious institutions. Outstanding among them is Tariq Ramadan, who explains his beliefs.
http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/page...&itemNo=168205
I don?t really know if this is a large division among Muslims and in any event when I read the article I saw that he left the door open to violence against Jews.
Part of Article:
Even when he identifies urges that have their source in economic distress and social frustration, or the desire to protest against Israel's oppressive policy, among people who express themselves in an anti-Semitic way and are involved in anti-Semitic acts, Ramadan refuses to demonstrate understanding or forgiveness toward them. He says: "The social and political forces in the Muslim communities must act to educate toward the delegitimization of elements of anti-Semitism. Leaders and imams have the responsibility to disseminate an unequivocal message about the profound connections between Islam and Judaism and Islam's recognition of Moses and the Torah."
This paragraph states clearly in part that he understands why they commit the acts but he disagrees with their actions.
What he?s saying is ?I understand what you do and why you do it but it?s wrong.?
Quite frankly I?ve never been able to understand the reasoning of psychopaths (suicide bombers, people defacing synagogues, etc.) To me they are psychopaths and they do what they do without reasoning or logic.
Then he drifts into the Koran and states that it recognizes Moses and the Torah.
Tariq doesn't really bring pleasant words after 2 years of non-stop anti-semetic incidents that occured in france.
You cannot just tell a teenager who has the intent to commit a crime against jews to stop. We are not talking about angry adults here. We are talking about muslims who come from the 'gutter' of france society. We are talking about muslims who are 1st generation and whom have probably been born in a North Arican/Middle eastern country but then fled in the early ages. I am not talking about the average joe.
Tariq needs to see that there has to be a cooperation between jews and muslims. A sort of unity. He doesn't express that. He expresses a need to do a 'mini-intifhada' but to also stop attacking innnocent jews.
Kinda sounds like Arafat to me.
The curious part of it is that if Ramadan is sincere about his condemnation of antisemitism then he undermines the so-called "criticism of Israel". It's a fact of life in this part of the world that hardly anyone would give a damn about Palestinians, were it not that the presumable concern for their plight would offer such a convenient channel for voicing anti-jewish resentment. Take it away, deny it the publicity it enjoys at present, and in a short time the whole issue will be forgotten, Israel will be a kind of Afghanistan to the general public - which makes me wonder what Ramadan really wants to achieve.
The best explanation I can think of is healthy pragmatism: antisemitism is for immigrant communities a waste of valuable time and effort, which could be much better employed to advance the causes of immediate concern for them, such as legal and social issues in the countries they actually live in.
Tariq Ramdan is just like any other Islamic moderate scholar. He trys to bring peace and abundance, but his words don't mean a thing unless you do action and convice his people to stop the madness.
What is the palestinians fight anyways?
I think that the main reason why the palestinians are still strugguling is because that there brothers and sisters, weather they live under harsh lives in Saudi arabia or not, dont give a damn about them. Now after September 2000, it seems that there is a Soap Opera about the palestinians.
No one really cares?
"You cannot just tell a teenager who has the intent to commit a crime against jews to stop. We are not talking about angry adults here. We are talking about muslims who come from the 'gutter' of france society. We are talking about muslims who are 1st generation and whom have probably been born in a North Arican/Middle eastern country but then fled in the early ages. I am not talking about the average joe. "
that's right
however there is cooperation between Jews and Arabs, at least in france, but as well among leftist Palestinians and leftist Israeli. this should be a model for the whole region.
of course the reason for antiisraeli feelings of most arabs is not anti-semitism but the tremendous suffering of the palestinians (not comparable at all to the israeli suffering), if you fail to see this you are blind. we have had much discussion about this issue and never the opponents could proove their theory that anti-israel = anti-semitism
takeo,
first of all, if you look carefully...you would see that an avegage pro-palestinian protest is not ALL PALESTINIANS, there are other people from Algeria, indonesia and whatever.....i sometimes suppose if there is any?
But you have to understand that not all Palestiians are left and nor the Israelis are. How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews?
Would talk end a youth group being beaten by bats?
It always happened, its about understanding! And people always noted that the powerhouses such as Mosques and schools teach it.
its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim?
Is that justifiable?
"How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews? "
not because they're jews, but because they violated all kinds of international laws, and occupied and cleansed almost a whole population. If they would have been Argentines it wouldn't have been any different.
"its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim? "
i don't know, maybe the fundamentalists would but not the main-stream.
it is certainly politics, but not baseless. It is about the life of millions of palestinians.
Originally Posted by Takeo
"How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews? "
not because they're jews, but because they violated all kinds of international laws, and occupied and cleansed almost a whole population. If they would have been Argentines it wouldn't have been any different.
"its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim? "
i don't know, maybe the fundamentalists would but not the main-stream.
it is certainly politics, but not baseless. It is about the life of millions of palestinians.
1st off, whos we....are u accusing a French jew, who has never been to Israel, and has had familys anywhere but israel, mainly in French an occupier? How can accuse someone who is french, but due to his beliefs he has the right to take bats and knifes when attacked by morrocan muslim youths just because he was playing for the "MACCABI JEWISH SOCCER TEAM"...thats not justified, that pure racist content....
How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmmHitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country.
If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!!
I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?
hey man cool down, you don't seem to have read what i wrote...
it seems you took more propaganda than your health could take...
"1st off, whos we....are u accusing a French jew, who has never been to Israel, and has had familys anywhere but israel, mainly in French an occupier? How can accuse someone who is french, but due to his beliefs he has the right to take bats and knifes when attacked by morrocan muslim youths just because he was playing for the "MACCABI JEWISH SOCCER TEAM"...thats not justified, that pure racist content.... "
1) I have been to israel
2)i have not been attacked and i certainly don't think that anyone has the right to attack someone because of his religion.
"How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmm Hitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country. "
3) no, being Jewish is certainly not a crime, nor is being Muslim or Palestinian a crime
4) israel violated all kinds of un-resolutions and Geneva-conventions and some other international law. This has nothing to do with religion, anyone in similar position would be condamned, including indonesia occupying eastern timor.
"If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!! "
5) no of course so, you didn't read what i wrote. However this Eastern timor citizen would have the right to fight the indonesian army and indonesia was equally condamned for occupying Eastern timor.
"I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?"
a place for the Palestinians as well, who (used to) live in that same land as well.
Ugh, you frenchies are the last people on the surface of that planet that can accuse others of breaking international law. What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? Marrocco? The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean? The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was? Or was that a jewish plot too? The frequent attacks on jews in France? The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah?
And after all that, you come here, and whine. Bleh.
i see that you prefere to insult instead of going into a reasonable dialogue
"What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? "
many, many French were opposed to that war, and actually france let go algeria, after both algeria and france suffered a lot, the same israel will let go of palestine some day.
"The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean?"
what about the nuclear bombs of israel, a country not allowed to have nuclear weapons according to proliferation-agreements?
" The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was?"
I see you heard something about this in your propaganda-source. Vichy was a treatorous puppet-government set up in the South of france by the occupying nazi's, the only chance it could survive was by massive german military presence. But the French fought the nazi's as much as palestinians are fighting the israeli occupation, and many french risked their life to save jews from the germans or to do "terrorist acts" as you would call it against the nazi-occupier.
"The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah? "
Yes you are right, actually Chirac is the president of hisbollah
"How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmm Hitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country. "Originally posted by Takeo
3) no, being Jewish is certainly not a crime, nor is being Muslim or Palestinian a crime
4) israel violated all kinds of un-resolutions and Geneva-conventions and some other international law. This has nothing to do with religion, anyone in similar position would be condamned, including indonesia occupying eastern timor.
"If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!! "
5) no of course so, you didn't read what i wrote. However this Eastern timor citizen would have the right to fight the indonesian army and indonesia was equally condamned for occupying Eastern timor.
"I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?"
a place for the Palestinians as well, who (used to) live in that same land as well
If it is not a crime to be a jew, why are so many jews in France fearing for there life. It can't be justifiable that Jews have fear just because of whats going on 5000KM away from them!!! It just can't. You are france, and i see that. When you see the world hate, fight,occupation, you think differently...then you ask the world why you have Chirac fighting for his life in the polls why LE PEN might make a big scene. Infact, i think LE PEN got more sympathizers not just in France but around the globe. Why? Its because of the issues that go on in France itself. But this is a Internal problem and im not france, so you go solve it.
Another thing which i brought up was indonesia! Not one in the islamic world threaten to protest about the occupation and atrocities that was going on in the islands. The arab newspapers hardley ever spoke of it and when they did they condoned the Indonesian army of getting 'rid' of the ruthless infidels that live in Indonesia. Amnesty international (corrupted!!!) condemend it once, than got a phone call and i guess some under the table money and then never got anything else to say. Thats showbusiness in the Islamic world!!! So you see....they never did anything, they respected what indonesia did. And even today, the cold cowardly hatred that Chinese indonesians get is insane! How come no one is condemning it? your french? perhaps your even a muslim? why don't you go protest for the Indonesian chritians?? cause in your geneva book it is always right to wait outside a church and blow up kids after a midnight mass...
No truth, no justice, the Islamic way.......
Originally Posted by Takeo
see that you prefere to insult instead of going into a reasonable dialogue
"What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? "
many, many French were opposed to that war, and actually france let go algeria, after both algeria and france suffered a lot, the same israel will let go of palestine some day.
"The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean?"
what about the nuclear bombs of israel, a country not allowed to have nuclear weapons according to proliferation-agreements?
" The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was?"
I see you heard something about this in your propaganda-source. Vichy was a treatorous puppet-government set up in the South of france by the occupying nazi's, the only chance it could survive was by massive german military presence. But the French fought the nazi's as much as palestinians are fighting the israeli occupation, and many french risked their life to save jews from the germans or to do "terrorist acts" as you would call it against the nazi-occupier.
"The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah? "
Yes you are right, actually Chirac is the president of hisbollah
to your first argument...about french opposition to what its country has done...well, there are many Israelis who are oppose to Israeli Occupation, yet the Palestinian Sympathizers do not seem to care about it. The thing that many of your pro-palestinians do not hesitate to understand was that, there is a peace process (or was) to give the palestinians a homeland, with economy, free security and anything you can ask for in exchange, Israel will make peace, get 3-7% of the land, and divide jerusalem up, but as according to demographic and not rights...Well what did the palestinian delegates do? They called up the R.O.R...in the Wye River accord, Arafat never dared to call it, and nor did he ever speak of it. It was a new topic. and in my case it is an obsolete thing. But back to what i was saying, the peace process which is suppose to determine the palestinian state is in jeopardy, not because of the fact that israel is still occupaying 'it' but because the palestinians have rejected it. Im not telling you that you should go back to the camp david. What i am saying is that you wanted what is going on right now. Even in peaceful times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected to the peace process and yet, today they are the ones who are destabilizing it. Look at me for one, i was a leftist many years ago! I wanted the palestinians right more then you did, i even went and made some friends in the 90's when i bought Pita from them in places like Tulkarem and Qalkilia, i was hopeful. What made me change? well it was the suicide bombings! They are the ones that took my trust away.
2 your 2nd question, yes; Israel does have the nuclear bomb. Did it use it? no! Did it upgrade it? no! it still has it. and when you live in a country that is close to Iran, Syria and Iraq, than you have to put up fear. These country don't have democracy. These country a ruled by religous, fanatical, miliary regimes...and you tell us that it is illegal for us to have a it? that is just pure biasism at its best!! Israel never used it, and it was the greatest help we got in 1973 war, because Syrian intelligence feared that if they would infiltrate more of the Golan Heights, Israel will launch and all out Nuclear assault on Aleepo and Damascaus!! if that would be true, than we shall call the Syrians after nuking and occupying them Palestinians too!!! hehehehe
as for the French, well....when it comes to Nuclear and french, let me just state that it is worser than the Iraqis. Infact, i think the French along with the russians have made nuclear and biological programs in countrys such as Iran/Iraq, which if they find you were guilty and trust me, they would find you, than you would yourself be aquitted to some sanctions and embassy closin.
But for your knowledge, and to make your topic more 'spicier' let me just say a few words about the good'ol French Nuclear program, because if you thought your little country is safe and happy, think again!
the France tested out Biological weapons as early as 1995, it was condmened and what they done exactly was use water force. If it was gone wrong they could have poisoned the pacific ocean, for all i care. Other than that, they tested it near grounds where civilians were. They forced them out, and to who knows where and they simply 'nuked there houses'? Now.....isn't that a sort of occupation and then forceful demolation!!!! And your government does that.
Next, go to Greenpeace, which puts you, not Iraq in the top list as enemys? why? because back in 1994/1995, some Greenpeace activist went missing. It wasn't a big story, but it got some publicity that the security gaurds whom i forgot what there name or organization was, killed them and as the article said "threw there bodied in the water....." so you telling me this is justifiable! It is not, this is disgusting. France should get sanctioned like Iraq! let anarchy rule Paris!! let the Muslim community show what it can do by looting and raping, and sodomizing the country as lep pen put it....Let it be an anarchist place! Yugoslavia will look like a baby after what will happen in France sooner or later!!!
So thers my 2 cents!
"If it is not a crime to be a jew, why are so many jews in France fearing for there life. It can't be justifiable that Jews have fear just because of whats going on 5000KM away from them!!! It just can't. You are france, and i see that."
no single Jew in france is fearing for his life
" When you see the world hate, fight,occupation, you think differently...then you ask the world why you have Chirac fighting for his life in the polls why LE PEN might make a big scene. Infact, i think LE PEN got more sympathizers not just in France but around the globe. Why? Its because of the issues that go on in France itself. But this is a Internal problem and im not france, so you go solve it. "
actually Chirac never had to fight for his reelection, he got 83% of the votes in the second round... Le Pen is just a phenomenon for people who are unhappy with some things, so they vote for an extremist, it happens everywhere in Europe as well as in the States and Israel.
"Another thing which i brought up was indonesia! Not one in the islamic world threaten to protest about the occupation and atrocities that was going on in the islands. The arab newspapers hardley ever spoke of it and when they did they condoned the Indonesian army of getting 'rid' of the ruthless infidels that live in Indonesia. Amnesty international (corrupted!!!) condemend it once, than got a phone call and i guess some under the table money and then never got anything else to say. Thats showbusiness in the Islamic world!!! So you see....they never did anything, they respected what indonesia did. And even today, the cold cowardly hatred that Chinese indonesians get is insane! How come no one is condemning it? your french? perhaps your even a muslim? why don't you go protest for the Indonesian chritians?? cause in your geneva book it is always right to wait outside a church and blow up kids after a midnight mass... "
Indonesia was condamned by several un-resolutions for violating the geneva-conventions and for occupying Eastern timor, i have no sympathy at all for the indonesian politics. France condamned indonesia several times as well. Also Amnesty International condamned indonesia without cessation, not only once. The problem was that indonesia dictator Suharto, as Israel, was protected by the us, so the un couldn't take any real sanctions against indonesia.
No truth, no justice, the Islamic way.......
"to your first argument...about french opposition to what its country has done...well, there are many Israelis who are oppose to Israeli Occupation, yet the Palestinian Sympathizers do not seem to care about it."
they very much care for it, we all know that many israeli resist the israeli government policy against the palestinians.
"The thing that many of your pro-palestinians do not hesitate to understand was that, there is a peace process (or was) to give the palestinians a homeland, with economy, free security and anything you can ask for in exchange, Israel will make peace, get 3-7% of the land, and divide jerusalem up, but as according to demographic and not rights...Well what did the palestinian delegates do? They called up the R.O.R...in the Wye River accord, Arafat never dared to call it, and nor did he ever speak of it. It was a new topic. and in my case it is an obsolete thing. "
Israel only offered some isolated islands to the Palestinians, "bantustans" as in South africa. The goal of Oslo was an independant palestinian state and also israel had to end its colonisation-policy, but Netanyahu didn't agree to the oslo-process from day one, and did not commit himself to execute the oslo-agreements. Camp david 2000 was not acceptable to the palestinians because mainly no solution was found for millions of refugees and becase the palestinian state wouldn't have an own border with Jordan.
"But back to what i was saying, the peace process which is suppose to determine the palestinian state is in jeopardy, not because of the fact that israel is still occupaying 'it' but because the palestinians have rejected it. Im not telling you that you should go back to the camp david. What i am saying is that you wanted what is going on right now. Even in peaceful times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected to the peace process and yet, today they are the ones who are destabilizing it. Look at me for one, i was a leftist many years ago! I wanted the palestinians right more then you did, i even went and made some friends in the 90's when i bought Pita from them in places like Tulkarem and Qalkilia, i was hopeful. What made me change? well it was the suicide bombings! They are the ones that took my trust away. "
you are right about hamas and jihad, they never wanted peace, as well as some israeli radical politicians! But they don't represent the majority of the palestinian people. only 20% support hamas according to polls, more or less 20% of israeli support extremist parties as well.
"2 your 2nd question, yes; Israel does have the nuclear bomb. Did it use it? no! Did it upgrade it? no! it still has it. and when you live in a country that is close to Iran, Syria and Iraq, than you have to put up fear. These country don't have democracy. These country a ruled by religous, fanatical, miliary regimes...and you tell us that it is illegal for us to have a it? that is just pure biasism at its best!! Israel never used it, and it was the greatest help we got in 1973 war, because Syrian intelligence feared that if they would infiltrate more of the Golan Heights, Israel will launch and all out Nuclear assault on Aleepo and Damascaus!! if that would be true, than we shall call the Syrians after nuking and occupying them Palestinians too!!! hehehehe "
according to international agreements israel nor any other country than china, US, SU, france, GB had the right to produce nuclear bombs.
if israel feels the right to produce nuclear bombs because it feels treatened than iraq, Libanon and Syria have that right too, they feel treatened as well.
"as for the French, well....when it comes to Nuclear and french, let me just state that it is worser than the Iraqis. Infact, i think the French along with the russians have made nuclear and biological programs in countrys such as Iran/Iraq, which if they find you were guilty and trust me, they would find you, than you would yourself be aquitted to some sanctions and embassy closin. "
maybe so, but the us gave nuclear weapons to israel, so who's blaming who?
"the France tested out Biological weapons as early as 1995, it was condmened and what they done exactly was use water force. If it was gone wrong they could have poisoned the pacific ocean, for all i care. Other than that, they tested it near grounds where civilians were. They forced them out, and to who knows where and they simply 'nuked there houses'? Now.....isn't that a sort of occupation and then forceful demolation!!!! And your government does that. "
the us did the same in the bikini-islands in the pacific ocean, and as well in the nevada-desert.
"Next, go to Greenpeace, which puts you, not Iraq in the top list as enemys? why? because back in 1994/1995, some Greenpeace activist went missing. It wasn't a big story, but it got some publicity that the security gaurds whom i forgot what there name or organization was, killed them and as the article said "threw there bodied in the water....." so you telling me this is justifiable! It is not, this is disgusting. France should get sanctioned like Iraq! let anarchy rule Paris!! let the Muslim community show what it can do by looting and raping, and sodomizing the country as lep pen put it....Let it be an anarchist place! Yugoslavia will look like a baby after what will happen in France sooner or later!!! "
LOL,
what you are referring to happened in the 80's not in 1994/95, it is regrettable, but this kind of practises is business as usual for the mossad,,who specialise in killing people by car-bombs, and the israeli army who even kill stone-trowing children.
I can tell you one thing, if israel would ever attack France it will look like ground-zero within seconds.
we treat the arabs here properly and as normal citizens so they don't feel any need to "sodomise" france.
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