A case of split personality?

[Pushtak18]

Stop saying that "IF ISRAEL HAD ANY CONCESSIONS THERE WOULDN"T BE WAR" that is a bear-faced lie and you know it. Camp David was meant to end the Palestinian-Israeli issue. Maybe no one was ready, but the main point is that the Israelis had something on the table, Arafat never made his offer. He just felt insulted and took off. You understand that Israelis and especailly ehud Barak wanted the peace. Arafat never insisted on a Camp David. Like i said...Clinton Invented the idea, Barak Initiated the Idea, and Arafat accepted the Idea of the Camp David 2000 talks!! If for all i care, the Talks could have been NOW than 2000, and Ehud would be prime minster. It is the Politicians who wanted the infifhada and not the People. The people were growing and even under occupation life was good. They had jobs and the economy was growing, slwoly but growing. So what went wrong there? are u still accusing israel of being the bad guy because they initiated the peace at camp david...that is obscurd comment to say.

Well, Mr Takeo...about the refugees....
The russians did have something and they were jews. And unlike the Palestinians who are intrested in just making mayhem and anarchy in Israel. Sure, you can say that the Russians don't have anything to do with israel, but than again what do the palestinians have? the 'home land?" well..im not russian, im Syrian Jew..and my homeland is in Syria and yet, i can't travel, and im barred from my homeland. Like the many jews who you so much deny, that left the Arab/Middle eastern world from the 1900's to the 1970's....... They never got compesated and were ignored the rights.....so what do you tell a jew who has no rights in a place like YEMEN (which till today had a rule to expel jews that was made in there bill at around 1923)??? You wouldn't sayanythiing? There was a jewish refugee problem from the Middle east countries, yet instead of putting them in refugee camps and depriving them, they got home and there independence in Israel. And as you said.....since the palestinians are arabs, what the point if they go to a Deomocratic jewish state??? So they can topple it??? Why not send them to there own brothers and sisters in the Arab world?? Why is that? or are u just trying to make the war seem more bitter? All you want to do is creat an East and West palestine! And bring more anarchy. Right of Return is not in the Geneva conventions and you know that if today we would suck up to R.O.R and have peace, there will be trouble in 20-50 years from now. I am not going to let this happen. So don't threaten the jewish state with whats on the Geneva convetions because you arabs have ripped the Convention many times in the past 50 years...not just for our wars, but for your own people.

First of all, Don't try to make the call and say that Jordan and Lebanon are sooo poor and generous people. The palestians are the ones who started the 15 year civil war in Lebanon. They ignited it. On the Jordanian side, the Jordanians in just 3 weeks massacred 20,000 Palestinians!! Now are they generous and sensere!!! Look here.... i know you missing alot of points and some your reufse to know, but the fact is, you cannot have a peace process that would allow a civil war to take place! YOU WANT A CIVIL WAR IN ISRAEL! And i know that if we make peace with the arab world than they would stab us in the back! That is why i am not going to accept something like that, which is ridiculous. If the world wants to play a good part, than i think that 4 million refugees can go to all parts of the world and gain citizenships. They can live in luxenborg, and england and spain and argentina and USA and Canada and all sorts of places. Remember, PA mocked Canada last year for being the first to step out and trying to resolve the refugee issue, by letting them in their country...the PA called it FRUITLESS!!! How dare they!!!

you are truly a denier!!! You are speechless when i tell you that the arabs weren't budging on the war. And evenso, you seem to little or no agree with me that the same sort of punishment and even worser would happen to the Israelis like it is happened to the Palestinains! That seems to show how and why Israel won the war and would still need to defend itself. You brought up the war and you lost it. And yet you never signed peace for it. You realize that the WB would have became part of Jordan? so now where is the Peace process with palestinians?

But listen, im not talking about waht the Syrians wants to have relations with Israel......Im talking about how they acted in 1940's...They were the ones who ruined the relations and freedome for the palestinians....the palestininas weren't the ones fighting. it was the Jordanians and Syrians...and they made them lose! they were the arrogant one, they were the aggressors and they lost. How can you say they want to have relations only if Palestinians rights are observed when they march with there tanks and Phantom-5's and try to destroy israel. that is insane!!!


Still, whatever it was it was an expulsion!!! People just don't say they want to move cause its sunnier. Russians were torchered in Russia and Syrian jews did not have any rights. We left for fear and we wanted a better life. There is nothing about zionism or any nationalistic movement.. infact if Zionism is so bad for you than so is Arab/Islamic Nationalism? And do you know why? because Arab Nationalism focuses on Pure Islamic Countries and Pan Arabism country where there would be an Empire of the whole 25 Arab countries in 1. So whats the difference? Jews wanted a homeland where they can live without pogroms and hatred, just because you don't live in that country doesn't mean you have to mock it. I am proud to live in Israel. I know that there was many troubles for jews, even before the turn of the century and we had enough!!! Israel was our hope! Israel was our TIKVA! So leave Israel alone and give us our own state and homeland!!!

[takeo]

let me shortly make some remarks about your first post:

How do you know that Chirac has ruined France?
You don't seem to know nothing about France, because the real power was not in the possetion of Chirac but of a left-wing coalition, and by the way the last 4 years the French have never had such a high life-standard. There are some problems with Arabs in some neighbourhood, but if you go to France you will see it's not really so bad.
Of course according to you (and others on this forum) the credibility of France is lost because it criticised israel. well i can assure you we don't give a **** about the credibility of france in some countries which have been condamned during many decades by the whole world for their policy.

listen you don't seem to understand the meaning of "etnic cleansing", it doesn't mean genocide but expulsion or refusal to allow back refugees into their homes. Whoever started the war, it doesn't matter, you can not take revenge on millions of refugees, that's against the geneva-conventions. And so israel has certainly committed etnic cleansing.

you also don't seem to understand how the un works, the us has veto power, countries like Morocco, etc. don't have veto-power. The US supported the suhartu-regime, that's a well-known secret and only in the 90's the US started to pull back its support.



netanyahu said there wouldn't even be a palestinians state, let alone a full withdrawel. i think hamas should have the right to be represented in parliament if they would accept to use non-violent means to achieve its goals once a palestinian state is created. there should be amnesty for crimes on both sides, or justice for both sides.

you also don't seem to know much about macao or hong Kong, these were colonies of Brittain and portugal conquered (or granted) from china, and returned to china in a treaty. People in Hong Kong and macao are 98% etnic chinese.
abut libanon the libanese falangist prime minister (or president) invited the syrian troops in Libanon to fight the palestinians (and later also israel), that's history my friend. as long as libanon doesn't ask for their withdrawel, they are legal in Syria. Some people don't like their presence, but the elected parliament of Libanon has not asked for the withdrawel of syrian troops, whereas possibly 100% of the palestinians and their legal representatives ask the withdrawel of israeli troops, who were never invited in the WB or Gaza! by the way israel was never invited in Libanon neither;



The first intifadeh was not stopped after the gulf-war, it only stopped officially in 1993 when israel for the first time in its history showed willingness to talk with the palestinian leaders. yes some palestinians were mistreated by kouweit after the war, so what? did i ever say that all Arab countries are good?

"First of all, Barak never once ordered to shoot children"
so who ordered the shooting of 100's of, sometimes very young, demonstrators?



" And no, the negotiation happened even in Early October 2000. These were the talks that arafat refused and than in Taba still refused. And yes he was the one who suspended it. And ofcourse when there was TABA there was a car bombing in Jerusalem...so you see, everytime we even try to have a breakthrough you seem to have your 'intifhada weapons' being used!!!! "

do you deny that since Sharon came to power israel refused to negociate with the palestinians, and stopped the negociations started by barak before the election of Sharon?
you should make a difference between the pa and fatah and hamas. Hamas tried to stop the peace-process, while it was only since israel started to stop the peace-process too and destroying pa-infrastructure that fatah got actively involved in violence against israel.


"STOP THE NON-SENSE! STOP THE AGONY AND STOP THE MERCY!
THE ONLY TYRANT ISLAMIC BITCH HERE IS MR. ARAFAT. STOP SUPPORTING HIM, MAKE HIM FEEL LIKE ITS 1990 WITH IRAQ AND HE WILL BE LEFT ALONE AND WE'LL FINALLY LISTEN TO HIS PEOPLE! NOW WE ARE NEEDING REFORM!!! "

arafat is the representative of the palestinians, if you kill him there will be more violence and reprisals against israel, not less.
"stop naming arafat is a bad person " he was the one palestinian to make peace with israel, and he can do it again if israel wishes so.

"Stop naming netenyahu as a bad person, he made the peace with the palestinains twice. Im sorry that you don't like him but he did his part...And there was no delay...he was only removed cause there was a voting!!!!!
And it was internal problems and not foreign!"

i heard he was accused of corruption...
anyway he really delayed the oslo-agreements (a final solution should have been established in 1999), and violated them (more new settlements)

[takeo]

"You can't claim this. Even though I'm not that old, I know very well that Soviet Jews were persecuted in Russia and I recall that there were considerable efforts in the 1970s and 1980s in the West to assist them in their plight. What a slap in the face to all the people who put in considerable efforts to help Soviet Jews and to all the people who actually suffered in the Soviet Union. Just for starters, practicing and learning Judaism was extremely difficult and could lead to loss of employment and/or imprisonment. "

there was no persecution because someone was belonging to the jewish race or had jewish roots, that's what i mean.
And there were functioning synagogues, people could also practice Judaism without being persecuted (at least since the 60's), there were official rabbi's. some things were not allowed, such as religious education in schools and there was harsh state-controll over the religious system. But that can hardly be a reason to immigrate or feel persecuted.
Judaism and Islam in the Soviet-union had the same status.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
there was no persecution because someone was belonging to the jewish race or had jewish roots, that's what i mean.
And there were functioning synagogues, people could also practice Judaism without being persecuted (at least since the 60's), there were official rabbi's. some things were not allowed, such as religious education in schools and there was harsh state-controll over the religious system. But that can hardly be a reason to immigrate or feel persecuted.
Judaism and Islam in the Soviet-union had the same status.

You have GOT to be kidding! Where are you getting this information? I can vouch that it's baloney, from personal experience.

My father wanted to go to a military school. He was told, on no uncertain terms, that "no Yid will ever make it into this school". My father was a straight-A student, who subsequently entered the Telephony and Communications Institute (through bribes) and now has 50+ published works and a number of patented inventions to his credit. This was 1965.

My sister tried to get into the special music school. We had to pay a bribe for her to get accepted, because -as they told us -"they already had too many Jews". My sister, incidentally, is now a violinist for the Finnish National Opera - so talent wasn't an issue. This was 1977

I had a friend who got kicked out of that special music school for the "crime" of going to the synagogue on a Jewish holiday. This was 1978.

Is that enough? Or should I give you more samples from my "medium" life?

[takeo]

"Maybe no one was ready, but the main point is that the Israelis had something on the table, Arafat never made his offer. "

Arafat was ready to negociate about Camp david, israel made it clear it was a "take it or leave it"-proposal

"If for all i care, the Talks could have been NOW than 2000, and Ehud would be prime minster. It is the Politicians who wanted the infifhada and not the People. The people were growing and even under occupation life was good. They had jobs and the economy was growing, slwoly but growing. So what went wrong there? are u still accusing israel of being the bad guy because they initiated the peace at camp david...that is obscurd comment to say"

Israel could start new talks any moment, and start negociations were they left since Sharon came to power, right now in june 2002, Arafat said he would certainly accept, guess who refuses to talk?
the intifadeh started because the Palestinian economy was NOT growing because the palestinian cities were totally caled off from each other and from other Arab states, and oslo had been abused by israel to build more settlements while there was peace, the intifadeh started also because israel was not ready to talk about some crucial issues.

"Well, Mr Takeo...about the refugees....
The russians did have something and they were jews."

So what, they were no Jews with any family member (even distant) born in israel!

"And unlike the Palestinians who are intrested in just making mayhem and anarchy in Israel. Sure, you can say that the Russians don't have anything to do with israel, but than again what do the palestinians have? the 'home land?" well..im not russian, im Syrian Jew..and my homeland is in Syria and yet, i can't travel, and im barred from my homeland. Like the many jews who you so much deny, that left the Arab/Middle eastern world from the 1900's to the 1970's....... They never got compesated and were ignored the rights.....so what do you tell a jew who has no rights in a place like YEMEN (which till today had a rule to expel jews that was made in there bill at around 1923)??? You wouldn't sayanythiing? There was a jewish refugee problem from the Middle east countries, yet instead of putting them in refugee camps and depriving them, they got home and there independence in Israel."


That's right, and palestinians and arab countries also agreed to compensate Arab jews or let them return on the condition that the same could happen with the palestinians. But many Jews didn't go to israel because they were forced to leave (in some cases yes), they went to israel because they believed in zionism.
Some jews still lived in Egypt untill the 60's and many still live in Morocco.
You have every right to establish in Syria or get compensation as the palestinian refugees have to establish in israel or get compensation.




"And as you said.....since the palestinians are arabs, what the point if they go to a Deomocratic jewish state??? So they can topple it??? Why not send them to there own brothers and sisters in the Arab world?? Why is that? or are u just trying to make the war seem more bitter? All you want to do is creat an East and West palestine! And bring more anarchy. Right of Return is not in the Geneva conventions and you know that if today we would suck up to R.O.R and have peace, there will be trouble in 20-50 years from now. I am not going to let this happen. So don't threaten the jewish state with whats on the Geneva convetions because you arabs have ripped the Convention many times in the past 50 years...not just for our wars, but for your own people. "

Palestinians should have the right to return to their own houses or lands, it won't make israel a palestinian country (still a minority) but it would make israel a multi-cultural country. as well as you should have the right to immigrate to Sria, palestinians born in israel and their families should have the right to go to israel. Believing in mono-etnic states is fascism, it is the dream of le pen.
In the next i will give you some parts of the geneva-convention that exactly show that israel is violating the convention and that the right of return is a basic human right.
it is not to stir anarchy but exactly to solve the anarchy and problems, the palestinians already living in israel are the ones NOT attacking or bombing israel.

"YOU WANT A CIVIL WAR IN ISRAEL! And i know that if we make peace with the arab world than they would stab us in the back! That is why i am not going to accept something like that, which is ridiculous. If the world wants to play a good part, than i think that 4 million refugees can go to all parts of the world and gain citizenships. They can live in luxenborg, and england and spain and argentina and USA and Canada and all sorts of places. Remember, PA mocked Canada last year for being the first to step out and trying to resolve the refugee issue, by letting them in their country...the PA called it FRUITLESS!!! How dare they!!! "

How dare israel to take everything from this people, their houses, lands, etc. BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT JEWISH BUT PALESTINIAN.
There won't be a civil war in israel, palestinians in libanon and jordan created problems because they were foreigners, they had nothing in those already poor and foreign countries. Millions of refugees create problems, always in every part of the world. For them israel isn't a foreign country but the land where they have their roots. Any peace-deal dealing with the refugee-question can make garantees for israel that their demographic considerations would be considered and that the palestinians can be accomodated in an ordered way, not over one day as they arrived in libanon or jordan.

"you are truly a denier!!! You are speechless when i tell you that the arabs weren't budging on the war. You brought up the war and you lost it. And yet you never signed peace for it. "

1967 was a war started by israel. syria never signed for peace with israel because israel is still occupying parts of Syria, or do you consider this to be legitimate self-defense?
By the way I only made war with my sister untill now


"But listen, im not talking about waht the Syrians wants to have relations with Israel......Im talking about how they acted in 1940's...They were the ones who ruined the relations and freedome for the palestinians....the palestininas weren't the ones fighting. it was the Jordanians and Syrians...and they made them lose! they were the arrogant one, they were the aggressors and they lost. How can you say they want to have relations only if Palestinians rights are observed when they march with there tanks and Phantom-5's and try to destroy israel. that is insane!!! "

That was more than 50 years ago!!!
a lot of things have changed in 50 years. jordan already made peace with israel and syria will do so if israel would give them back the occupied parts of syria.
fact is that israel was the one, after many decades, who mostly cleansed the palestinian population, and who occupies parts of other countries, not vice versa!


"Still, whatever it was it was an expulsion!!! People just don't say they want to move cause its sunnier. Russians were torchered in Russia and Syrian jews did not have any rights. We left for fear and we wanted a better life. There is nothing about zionism or any nationalistic movement.. infact if Zionism is so bad for you than so is Arab/Islamic Nationalism? And do you know why? because Arab Nationalism focuses on Pure Islamic Countries and Pan Arabism country where there would be an Empire of the whole 25 Arab countries in 1. So whats the difference? Jews wanted a homeland where they can live without pogroms and hatred, just because you don't live in that country doesn't mean you have to mock it. I am proud to live in Israel. I know that there was many troubles for jews, even before the turn of the century and we had enough!!! Israel was our hope! Israel was our TIKVA! So leave Israel alone and give us our own state and homeland!!!"

yes i think Arab/islamic nationalism is as bad as zionism, in fact both are equal and fascist in origin.
jews didn't face pogroms in Russia in the 50's, and neither in most Arab states. They left because they wanted to live in a Jewish country. This is not a crime, to have your own country, but it is a crime when it has to happen at the expense of millions of palestinians who were the original inhabitants of palestine (still in 1947 they were the majority of the population).
As long as the palestinians have no equal rights as the israeli, israel doesn't deserve to live in peace and prosperity. Once that happened, I will resist against any violence and would even consider moving to that nice country. (not because i'm persecuted in France, but because i like israel, believe it or not, the only thing i really hate is how they treat the palestinians and the nationalistic arrogance/pride)
If israel would have treated the palestinians fairly after their defeat in 1948, and would have allowed the un-plan, than i'm almost sure Arabs would have learned to accept israel.

[takeo]

Article 13 uf the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) states that:

"(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country"
and the Fourth Geneva Conventions (1949) prohibits:
"individual or mass forcible transfers ... regardless of their motive";
and calls for evacuated persons to be:
"transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased."

Moreover, UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 (1974) mentions:

"the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return";
and UN General Assembly Resolution 52/62 (1997):
"reaffirms that the Palestine Arab refugees are entitled to their property and to the income derived therefrom, in conformity with the principles of justice and equity."

The UN General Assembly Resolution 194 (1948) of 12 December 1948 resolved that:

"refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for the loss or damage to property..."
This resolution has been reaffirmed one hundred and ten times by the UN.

the Fourth Geneva Conventions (1949) prohibits:
"individual or mass forcible transfers ... regardless of their motive";
and calls for evacuated persons to be:
"transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased."

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
"You can't claim this. Even though I'm not that old, I know very well that Soviet Jews were persecuted in Russia and I recall that there were considerable efforts in the 1970s and 1980s in the West to assist them in their plight. What a slap in the face to all the people who put in considerable efforts to help Soviet Jews and to all the people who actually suffered in the Soviet Union. Just for starters, practicing and learning Judaism was extremely difficult and could lead to loss of employment and/or imprisonment. "

there was no persecution because someone was belonging to the jewish race or had jewish roots, that's what i mean.
And there were functioning synagogues, people could also practice Judaism without being persecuted (at least since the 60's), there were official rabbi's. some things were not allowed, such as religious education in schools and there was harsh state-controll over the religious system. But that can hardly be a reason to immigrate or feel persecuted.
Judaism and Islam in the Soviet-union had the same status.

Are you really sure that you know what you are writing about??? Where did you get the information from, some Communist Party of the Soviet Union leaflet from 1980???

[Pushtak18]

Frankly, i don't give a rats ass about France. France lost its reputation. You seem to be so protective from France, and yet what do you get out of it? your just defending a country that can't decide on its fate. It relies more on reputation rather on sences...... Its not just Israel, France has done things that should have been condemend...why is it that when Algerian gunment (I am not dared to say terrorist, cause the French will be angry) go in 1999 and gun down 4 or 6 French people in Bordeux or somewhere south of France and no one got condemend? Why is that? you afraid to bring something like that up?

Ethnic cleansins is to wipe out a race or human beings. Its not about to explu them or commit genocide..its to eliminate them. Did Israel Eliminate the Palestinians?? Did we massacre them in the thousands like Jordan did? Did we go and deprive them? Infact, we gave them what they wanted, they wanted autonomy, israel gave the autonomy to them and in the process will be giving them a state if they co-operate. you know whats holding them from a state...Ignorant people like you who cannot define what ethnic Cleansins is. If Israel did commit ethnic cleaning than there would be no more palestinians. But instead they doubled. They doubled from 600,000 to 4 million. That is not ethnic cleaning, that is growth. Learn it!

Yes; the us did have veto power in the UN, but this Veto issue isn't related to Indonesia at all. America was against it, and yes it voted against it and supported Australia. Australia was the one who vetoed it. Morroco went for Indoneisa. The Regime you are talking about was in the 1950's and 1960's, U.S pulled back way before the timor crisis began!

You are getting netenyahu's words mixed. He said clearly that a palestinian state would be created. He has no problem with it. What he does have a problem is that in the last few years instead of fighting the terrorism and showing a sign of restraint and independency, they alloweed terror to evolve. They alloweed all of GAZA which is mostly all for the PA to be a hot bed for HAMAS. As for Hamas, if you belive that it can be in the Parliment than you are repeating what has gone in Lebanon. Today Lebanon wants change. you go in the streets of Beirut and they ask for change. For democracy for freedome and for wealth, yet there bing occupied by Syria and the whole souther lebanon is no mans land..why, cause the Anti-Syrian protestors don't have any support and this is due to having the seats that Hizbullah has not to mention the Syrian back parts in Lebanon.... So i guess you want to repeat Lebanon for the Palestinan...once again....how dare you!

Well im sorry that politics have to have an invitation, but the fact is that in 1982, the PLO decided to bombared North Israel with missiles. We responded and we invaded. We invaded them pretty well and got the PLO expelled from Lebanon. Our object was easy. Get the PLO out, find there hideouts and make peace with Lebanon. Remember, make peace! Did Syria and Lebanon have peace? no!! They don't...you can call that peace but its not. The PLO expulsion was sufficient and they moved to Tunis, but the prime minster of lebanon got assistanted in 83 and Chritians were fledding to the South.
Syria wasn't invited by the Lebanese prime minister. That is wrong facts. It was invited by the Arab Leauge, when they had an arab summit in Spring of '75, and one of the key issues was about Lebanon. If you were there in '75, you would just see how much rhetoric they talked about Chritians and Druze and the small minority that you would spill some guts. Syria came but had no agenda. And how dare you also have the urgency to deprive Lebanese citizens into whos occupying them. Why is it that if Israel occupies the Palestinians for a legitimate reason it is bad, but if there would be agreements that it would be solved while Syria would probably never make anything for sometime!! That is disgusting. And while your just sitting there, you are making the lebanese people more anxious and hurt.....There freedom is taken away, but you justify such an act......



No! The Infifhada stopped in 1994! And i don't really call it a stop. Arafat was the one who declared the stop of it. But again, many people would say that there were scattered riots and uprising as well in 1996. And don't forget the mini-intifhada that Arafat commited in 1998 on the al-aksa mosque. And you know how it was stopped? Many other arab countries urged arafat to show restraints and stop the bloodshed. he did!

Arafat was the one refusing. I think that the first 3-30 days of the Uprising, Arafat didn't do nothing. He encouraged it. If it wasn't for Arafat then Ehud would still be in power. By Late November Barak resigned and paved the way for an election. Arafat hated it, but never wanted to stop the Infifhada. You cry why the terror infrastructure was hurt by Israelis, but Arafat hurt it more! Everything was on Arafats court, he never took a change and never did anything. He just waited and wanted the worlds reaction. He is the kinda leader that waits for International reaction before remembering that 1000's of his people are eighter dead, destroyed, paralyzed, injured and devastated due to his formatic regime! And yes, you support that. So hats off to you and all your frenchie french supports on that!

As i said before, Its not on Israels court...Arafat had chances. Israel, no matter who is in power, if it is the right or left wing, Israel will make peace. Right wing made peace and started the tradition and left wing did the same. Israel is committed to peace, but if you hurt our civilians and damadge our security than im sorry, i cannot live peace like this. This not called peace but an excuse for no excuse....... Don't justify attacks as a form of desperation. Attacks will lead to more occupation!


About netanyahu, like i said before to you. He left office in 1999. He didn't have time to make peace. Ehud was the one who wanted to. He was so willing. and even if you mark him wrong he was up with arms. He withdrawled from Lebanon and did it without hesitation. He wanted to secure peace for the Israelis and even after the withdrawl there are still threats as well as the October 2000 kidnapping of 3 israeli soldiers and 1 Business man (which violates geneva convention).
Ehud wanted peace. But he could have had it whenever. Ehud initiated it..... He could have done it now or in 2003...it was all up to him. Not up to anyone else...possibly the new US adminstration. But on any key note, Netanhayu made 2 important deals. He showed that if you put security for israelis, and a cesation of terror than in the end your getting more autonomy and finally a stabalize independent state...Whats so complicated about that method?

[takeo]

"Are you really sure that you know what you are writing about??? Where did you get the information from, some Communist Party of the Soviet Union leaflet from 1980???"

From what i have read and heard, i have visited synagogues in Charkov and Sverdlovsk in the end of the 80's by the way.
if you can proove the contrary i will believe you...

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
"Are you really sure that you know what you are writing about??? Where did you get the information from, some Communist Party of the Soviet Union leaflet from 1980???"

From what i have read and heard, i have visited synagogues in Charkov and Sverdlovsk in the end of the 80's by the way.
if you can proove the contrary i will believe you...

My dear takeo, "official rabbis" usually also held a KGB rank (unofficially, of course). If you wanted to know what was going on, you'd have had to talk to the people "off the record", not that simple for an alien Westerner. How old were you in the late 80ies, btw.?

[Pushtak18]

Arafat wasn't ready to negotiate. He was ready to sit them, but empty handed. He never had his own agenda and never made the counter offer. The Camp-David talks which could have taken around 2-3 weeks, only lasted 5-7 days because arafat left it. Arafat was the one who rejected and suspended it. He put the peace process on hold, went back, declared a victory (somehow) and then pressured last minute into a peace process. But not even clamping down on the violence that gripped the country for the 3 months before Jan 2001.

Israel was the one who wanted the peace talks. Arafat was invited. Israel could start the peace talks anytime, yes, but as any other country in our state of mind would never talk while there citys are getting bombarded by terror attacks from right to left. Ambushes taking place contantly and murders! Israel is not willing to talk like this. If Saeb Erakat (negotiator) loves to go on pressure than fine with him, but Israel will not. Israel want the cessation of fire, violence, hostility terror and clamping on the groups before starting it. Right now it is hard. The only major points we have to do now is to watch PA reforming and the MID-EAST Summit....

Peace had chances, Arafat never took even one of them!

What you said with the russian jews you can say with the Palestinians. Most palestinians who living in refugees are distance. Some mixed into the place some did not. But how can they claim if. If the Russian jews cannot claim it than or can the Palestinians. You just made the rule up yourself...smart thinking, huh?

I don't really know what kinda world your living on or what lies you have but as a Syrian jew, i am not alloweed to come back to Syria, nor am i alloweed to visit it. I will not get compensated for it even though the pogroms that my grandparents faced, the hatred and the forcefull removal of the property. Syria cannot establish a committee and give compensation. If they were smart instead of compensating the jews, they should compensate the Palestinians in hopes of findng a solution to the conflict. And im sorry you feel so bad about zionism but Zionism is a jewish movement, like Arab Nationalism, which wanted control of Arab own lands and right of self-rule from other colonialists states (spain, france, italy, UK).... Zionism was form as a solution to anti-semitism. If there was a place that jews we're mistreated than the decision was to make a country where jews can rule and without being subjected to ethnic cleansins, genocide, tryanty rule and harsh pogroms. Israel was our answer. And for the love sake, can't you give the jews one land. Only 20,000 km to live on to say to ourselves that his is our land, this our freedome, our happiness our joy our future????? Why is it like that? why should we force to do what you want? only so in the end you will create a civil war?

Israel has a right to govern and control whatever they want. We don't have to sufficate our lives just for the Geneva Conventions. We cannot accept the Right of Return on any circumstances. We have our own freedome and liberty and our own rights..And why should we destablizes the country? you want a crowded polluted israel, where crime is high, deseases are high and poverty is high! Israel wants a stable country. We do not want you imaginary multi-cultural country. We are already one. We jews came from all around the world for one main thing which was to find freedom. I am not a Syrian and i don't call myself one. My grandparents fled from Syria and i am not willing to go back to it or get compensated. I have secured my life and i feel that living in israel is what i want. I would rather give the filthy compensation money to the palestinians so they can live in Syria. Israel is my Israel and don't tell me that im being compesated because its not! I don't want anything to do with the Arab states world and im glad im not there. Israel is my country and since i am a voter i make the rules and since i feel that the palestinians are intrested in created a polluted, over crowed, anarchy state than i am willing to refuse them in! Let them go into Saudi Arabia? you can make 40 Israel's in Saudi Arabia.......and if theres 250 million arabs would it kill if each of the 25 countires takes in around 160,000 Palestinians??? Than the conflict would be gone?

You keep on forgetting the rights of our lives. The palestinians weren't the aggressors they were victims of Arab Nationalism and the Aggressors. Palestin could have been a state, the UN wanted that. But the Arab world decided to eliminate a state. Israel defend, the palestinians fled. If the arabs would have recognized Israel, than i think Palestinians and Israelis would live side-by-side in Harmony. And how dare you keep on barging me that Israel kicked palestinians due because there not jews. When Israel is on the Palestinians lands than we are not welcomed eighter...You want a win win, situation but yet you reufse to deal the cards.

1967 war was fully started by the Arab neighbours. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon all engaged against Israel. IN 1967 we had no occupied you guys, in 1967 we had not one inch of land, in 1967 you could have made a palestinian state. In 1967 you could have freedom. But you attacked us, and in a moments seconds we took down, win superiority and occupy lands in exchange for a full peace, and regognition.

Syria did not sign a peace agreement with Israel, because it doesn't want to. Even if we never occupied the Golan, than Syria will still keep on barging us until they would infiltrate Israel. Until Syria stops there mayhem and Baath Party Anarchy, we would go to normal and sign a fair peace deal and retun the golan to them. If not than for the time being it will be a buffer zone and show of stupidity and aggression the syrians did in June 4, 1967!

Well than if 50 years ago the Arabs made a huge and gravely mistake and you don't recognize there mistake as a major one, than how come Israel is the one to still be blamed with. Israel made all concessions to make peace with Syria. Syria still tried to gain from it and until today they do. If Syria never learned from its mistakes and aggression, Israel shouldn't have to eighter.

Israel did treat the Palestinians good. Both lived under fair life. Jews didn't just come in the 1940's to Palestine. Jews were there since the 1800's...Infact, if you look at the Ottman's empire Census, you will see that between 1880 and 1920 there were at the most 20,000 people living in Jerusalem, and out of them there were half jews and half Arabs. On eighter note, There was little or not that densed arab population in most of Israel, the most arab lifed near the Jordan valley which made alot of sense, since Israel at the time was filled with Mahlaria and didn't have any close water system...Many lived in what is now the west bank and some lived in Israel. Israel was willing to accept the divided palestine in 1948 which would mean, half of what is now Israel would be divided in 2, one would be for the jewish people, the other would be for Palestinians.....Israel accepted it in principal....and lets hear what the palestinians did??????

No other comments, your honour?

[takeo]

I was very young, ok, but not an alien westerner, i'm not a russian because i have lived all my life here, but my parents speak excellent Russian and know everything about life in the Soviet-union. They were not religious at all, but my grandmother is, she never experienced a problem whatsoever. So you can't say there was persecution of people who were not politically motivated, and certainly not because they were Jewish. (maybe unofficially some people had bias against Jews, but that's everywhere, even in the US)

I don't like people insulting France, our country has a better repuation in the world than the us or Israel, i don't know any country thinking bad about France except israel. israeli travellers have a bad reputation because they are stingy and rude in general, Americans have a bad reputation because of their government-policy, at least in Southeastasia, latin america, Europe(eatsern and western) and the middle East.
of course not all french are nice people and some israeli and americans are the best people possible, but we were talking about reputations.

the algerians you talked about are convicted

you still don't know what etnic cleansing means, search it on the net!
it means depriving people of the right to return on base of their etnicity, or evict them from a territory or country for the same reasons.

about indonesia, australia doesn't have veto-right either and you are talking about the sukarno regime, which was communist, while suharto since the 70's , the one who invaded east-timor, was supported by the us. they only changed sides end 90's.

"You are getting netenyahu's words mixed. He said clearly that a palestinian state would be created. He has no problem with it. "

really?
so why did he support and promote the resolution in likud declaring there will never be a palestinian state, this was even too extremist for sharon, can you imagine!!!

"As for Hamas, if you belive that it can be in the Parliment than you are repeating what has gone in Lebanon. Today Lebanon wants change. you go in the streets of Beirut and they ask for change. For democracy for freedome and for wealth, yet there bing occupied by Syria and the whole souther lebanon is no mans land..why, cause the Anti-Syrian protestors don't have any support and this is due to having the seats that Hizbullah has not to mention the Syrian back parts in Lebanon.... So i guess you want to repeat Lebanon for the Palestinan...once again....how dare you! "

in a real democracy people can vote for any party, including hesbollah. By the way israel never signed a peace-treaty with libanon, but still violence dropped very much since israel withdraw.
anti-syrian protestors have little support, even among christians.

"Well im sorry that politics have to have an invitation, but the fact is that in 1982, the PLO decided to bombared North Israel with missiles. We responded and we invaded. We invaded them pretty well and got the PLO expelled from Lebanon. Our object was easy. Get the PLO out, find there hideouts and make peace with Lebanon. Remember, make peace! "

LOL, those ignorant libanese didn't see that israel was making peace by killing 1000's of civilians, destroying much of libanon, and interfearing in libanese politics. Maybe that's why isael's peace-policy wasn't very much appreciated by libanese (very strong understatement).

the syrians were invited by the falangist (Christian) libanese government , not by the Arab league.
How dare you, as a citizen of a country which occupied libanon for years, telling the libanese who is occupying and who is not!
the syrians are not shooting at people, building settlements and destroying buildings as idf did.

[cerulean]

Takeo did not provide an exact answer as to his age, but according to this post, he was born in 1976.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...=1242#post1242

[takeo]

If it wasn't for Arafat then Ehud would still be in power. "


If Ehud had been a little more flexible and allowed new far-reaching negociations to stop the intifadeh instead of shooting children, he would probably still in power.


"As i said before, Its not on Israels court...Arafat had chances. Israel, no matter who is in power, if it is the right or left wing, Israel will make peace. Right wing made peace and started the tradition and left wing did the same. Israel is committed to peace, but if you hurt our civilians and damadge our security than im sorry, i cannot live peace like this. This not called peace but an excuse for no excuse....... Don't justify attacks as a form of desperation. Attacks will lead to more occupation! "

i don't know, i think attacks on civilians will target all israeli, but attacks on the idf in the occupied territories will probably encourage those refusenics and the necessity of a real solution for the palestinians. as i said the first intifadeh let to the first peace-talks and oslo, the second may lead to final peace-proposals.


"About netanyahu, like i said before to you. He left office in 1999. He didn't have time to make peace. "

in 1999 the oslo should have been completed.

"Ehud was the one who wanted to. He was so willing. and even if you mark him wrong he was up with arms. He withdrawled from Lebanon and did it without hesitation."

that was a smart move.

" He wanted to secure peace for the Israelis and even after the withdrawl there are still threats as well as the October 2000 kidnapping of 3 israeli soldiers and 1 Business man (which violates geneva convention). "

it was a good things negociations were resuming, i'm sure if he stayed in power, the intifadeh would have stopped in favor of general peace-negociations.

"Ehud wanted peace. But he could have had it whenever. Ehud initiated it..... He could have done it now or in 2003...it was all up to him. Not up to anyone else...possibly the new US adminstration. But on any key note, Netanhayu made 2 important deals. He showed that if you put security for israelis, and a cesation of terror than in the end your getting more autonomy and finally a stabalize independent state...Whats so complicated about that method?"

that there were written obligations of both parties, netanyahu didn't commit himself to the israeli obligations, he showed the palestinians that peace or no peace, israel would never totally stop its occupation and even consider talking about refugees or a totally independant palestinian state. What he gave was very little. netanyahu was always against a palestinian state and if you build new settlements, you are not planning to leave within one year, are you?

[takeo]

"Israel was the one who wanted the peace talks. Arafat was invited. Israel could start the peace talks anytime, yes, but as any other country in our state of mind would never talk while there citys are getting bombarded by terror attacks from right to left. Ambushes taking place contantly and murders! Israel is not willing to talk like this. If Saeb Erakat (negotiator) loves to go on pressure than fine with him, but Israel will not. Israel want the cessation of fire, violence, hostility terror and clamping on the groups before starting it. Right now it is hard. The only major points we have to do now is to watch PA reforming and the MID-EAST Summit.... "

What about the Palestinians? They can say too they don't negociate under foreign occupation!
In fact you have to negociate to make an end to the violence, not vice versa. The US negociated with milosevic while the bombing of belgrade was still going on!!!



"What you said with the russian jews you can say with the Palestinians. Most palestinians who living in refugees are distance. Some mixed into the place some did not. But how can they claim if. If the Russian jews cannot claim it than or can the Palestinians. You just made the rule up yourself...smart thinking, huh? "

The Russian jews in israel should have the possibility to return to Russia if they wish so, and they can!!!


"I don't really know what kinda world your living on or what lies you have but as a Syrian jew, i am not alloweed to come back to Syria, nor am i alloweed to visit it. I will not get compensated for it even though the pogroms that my grandparents faced, the hatred and the forcefull removal of the property. Syria cannot establish a committee and give compensation."


That's wrong, and i'm sure once the palestinians get their compensation and right of return, your family will be included too and be offered the possibility to return to syria or receive compensation.

"And im sorry you feel so bad about zionism but Zionism is a jewish movement, like Arab Nationalism, which wanted control of Arab own lands and right of self-rule from other colonialists states (spain, france, italy, UK).... "

that's ok, but arab nationalism was also directed towards other people such as the kurds who lived on the lands they claimed, and zionism was directed against the palestinians who lived on the lands they claimed.

"Zionism was form as a solution to anti-semitism. If there was a place that jews we're mistreated than the decision was to make a country where jews can rule and without being subjected to ethnic cleansins, genocide, tryanty rule and harsh pogroms. Israel was our answer. And for the love sake, can't you give the jews one land. Only 20,000 km to live on to say to ourselves that his is our land, this our freedome, our happiness our joy our future????? Why is it like that? why should we force to do what you want? only so in the end you will create a civil war? "

israel can have all this, BUT ithe people who lived there should not be the victim of this, that's the only condition!!!
some one and a half million of refugees will not create a civil war in israel (nor do the palestinians already in israel), but israel will have to open up more to the Arab world and vice versa.

"Israel has a right to govern and control whatever they want. We don't have to sufficate our lives just for the Geneva Conventions. We cannot accept the Right of Return on any circumstances. We have our own freedome and liberty and our own rights."

ok, if this is more important to you than the rights of the palestinians, and not willing to seek a compromise, than you deserve war. That's one of the main reasons why the second intifadeh started.

"And why should we destablizes the country? you want a crowded polluted israel, where crime is high, deseases are high and poverty is high! Israel wants a stable country. We do not want you imaginary multi-cultural country. We are already one. "

yes but a multicultural country without Palestinians! your remarks are very racist, Palestinians won't bring deseases, crime, poverty, etc. if they will be treated like the Russian jews and get opportunities in israel. But if you prefere war instead of a multicultural society, be my guest...

"We jews came from all around the world for one main thing which was to find freedom. I am not a Syrian and i don't call myself one. My grandparents fled from Syria and i am not willing to go back to it or get compensated. I have secured my life and i feel that living in israel is what i want. I would rather give the filthy compensation money to the palestinians so they can live in Syria."

maybe that's what you want but many palestinians don't want to live in Syria, they want to go back to their own houses and lands. they should have the free choice as you should have that choice too.