Mediocrates that was an excellent article.
Ophra did you get a chance to read it?
Mediocrates that was an excellent article.
Ophra did you get a chance to read it?
Slight Misunderstandingby Isaac Kohn
Jan 12, '05 / 2 Shevat 5765
Violent Clash In Outpost Eviction
20:59 Jan 03, '05 / 22 Tevet 5765
More than 500 security troops destroyed Givat Lehavah, near Shechem and associated with the nearby community of Yitzhar. Police arrested 19 residents and protestors, including one woman who suffered a fractured hip and was hospitalized.
...Police and army personnel used bulldozers to wreck two empty trailer homes at Givat Lehavah. Previously, security forces towed away mobile homes.
About 150 protestors were at the site even though there was no advance notice. "We kept the utmost secrecy this time," said police official Shlomo Sagi. Previously, residents were able to bring up to 1,000 protestors when there was advance notice....
United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan was outraged. This can not be tolerated. A sharp rebuke must be issued immediately.
"Perhaps," he thought out loud to his aide, "perhaps an emergency Security Council meeting is in order."
The aide, surprised at the sudden anger, stammered a response, but before he could utter two words, Kofi Annan stormed out of the sitting room. "But, but..." was all the poor aide could mouth as the door slammed shut. The aide stood dumbfounded in disbelief.
Back in his office at the United Nations building in New York, the secretary general, still furious, shouted to his secretary: "Get me Prime Minister Sharon on the line!"
"But Mr. Secretary, it's now almost three in the morning in Jerusalem."
"First of all, young lady, it's Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem! The United Nations recognizes only Tel Aviv as Israel's capital. Second of all, I don't give two feathers as to how late it is. Wake him up! Now!"
Flustered (she's seen him angry before - especially in reaction to anything regarding Israel - but never this furious), she retreated quickly back to her own desk and dialed the prime minister's private number.
It rang only once. "Shalom," a male voice was heard.
"Sorry that I'm calling at such a late hour," she began to apologize, "but this is an urgent call from Secretary General Kofi Annan. He must speak to your prime minister immediately."
"I'm sorry, Miss, but the prime minister had a very long and tiring day. He just went to sleep. Less than fifteen minutes ago."
"Hold a minute, please." Nervously, she knocked on the door. "Mr. Secretary General, the prime minister's aide says that he can't wake him up because he just went to sleep."
Punching the red button on his telephone console, Secretary General Kofi Annan hissed into the receiver, "Get Sharon on the phone! Now!"
The young bodyguard in Jerusalem, smiled and responded, "And what is the purpose of this disturbing call?"
Fuming, the secretary general responded in measured yet deliberate tones: "Get me the prime minister. Tell him that the Security Council is about to convene and...."
On the New York side of the phone connection, the shuffle of slippers was heard clearly, and suddenly, the tired, raspy voice of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon echoed in the room.
"Yes. Who is this?"
"Kofi Annan," scribbled the aide on a piece of paper and handed it to the prime minister.
"Your Excellency! How nice of you to call! To what do I owe this pleasure?"
"Listen carefully, Mr. Prime Minister. I heard about, and then I read a concise report regarding, the Israeli army's action against a caravan of Palestinian refugees living in Yis-har near Nablus. I read how you stormed them at night, without warning, and about the brutality you employed to dislodge them from their legitimate living quarters. I understand that one poor Palestinian woman was beaten severely and broke her hip. Your goons also arrested 19 innocents."
"Excuse me, Mr. Secretary, if I'm very blunt, but what in blue-blazes are you talking about?"
"Mr. Prime Minister, I suggest you stop playing games and listen carefully. The action you took today in dislodging the residents of that village is illegal under the United Nation Charter for the Defense of Disadvantaged Refugees, the Geneva Convention and every other decent law designed to protect people, their homes and belongings. My sources tell me that your army brought in those heinous Caterpillar bulldozers and then your soldiers proceed to crush the huts these poor people were living in. Your soldiers shot without cause and, in general, created a very frightening situation."
"But, Mr. Secretary..." the Prime minister attempted to break in to the non-stop monologue. "You misread...."
"Mr. Sharon! You promised again and again that you will ease off in preparation for the elections in the Palestinian Authority. You promised over and over that the 'disengagement' will proceed on schedule. You promised that all obstacles are to be removed in order to facilitate a smooth election process. Needless to say, the unprovoked action you took against that little village near Nablus was uncalled for and creates much harm. I want you to know that I called for an emergency Security Council session to discuss and debate both your unconscionable provocation and the dire consequences that it may trigger."
The prime minister, his hair disheveled, his pajamas wrinkled and with his glasses askew on his bulbous nose, burst out laughing. All those present (two bodyguards and an aide) also exploded in hysterical laughter, practically rolling on the carpet.
Stunned at the sudden outburst, the voice of a very insulted secretary general came across loud and clear: "Laughs best is he who laughs last, Mr. Prime Minister. This is a complete insult."
Grabbing the receiver again, Prime Minister Sharon, unable to stop laughing, spoke to Kofi Annan: "Mr. Secretary General, I respect you. I really do, and I admire your one-sided, unwavering righteous stance for the Palestinian refugees. I wish, however, to assure you that I also have the best intentions vis-a-vis their future. I will not do anything to hinder the coming election. In fact, if you noticed, my army is under strict orders not to respond too harshly for all of the hundreds of mortars that are being lobbed against Jewish settlements. And the army (and police) is occupied in vigorous training for the upcoming expulsion, which, I promise you again, will be carried out. You will yet come back with Security Council accolades and congratulations for Israel. The expulsion will be total, yet, only the beginning. Trust me, Your Excellency. I may have lied to my own people, but never to you. So, stay with me to the end of this movie."
"Mr. Prime Minister, all is fine and well. But what of today's disgusting action against...."
"My, my, my, Mr. Annan. I suggest you re-read the report and re-examine the news item. You will note that the 'village' in question was not Yis-har, in Arabic, but Yitzhar, in Hebrew - a Jewish outpost. Let me repeat slowly: J-e-w-i-s-h outpost, near Nablus. Those people we beat, arrested and jailed are J-e-w-i-s-h settlers. Those huts our bulldozers demolished were J-e-w-i-s-h trailers. Everything in this action was Jewish. It was a learning experience and an exercise, designed to train our soldiers. And those UN and Geneva charters? Well, you know, Mr. Secretary General, that they do not apply, ever, to Jews."
"Really? Are you telling the truth? I'm so sorry for my misunderstanding."
"That's okay. Don't fret a minute over it. Your misunderstanding is quite understandable. And your relief at being corrected is also understandable and universally admired."
"My goodness! Jews? Not Palestinians? Not Serbs? Not Sudanese? Not Croatians? Not Iraqis? Not Eritrean? Only J-e-w-s. Thank G-d for that."
"Yes, only J-e-w-s, Your Excellency."
"Well, that's different. Sweet dreams, Mr. Prime Minister. I apologize for waking you."
"Good night, Your Excellency."
It is your country.. at any rate - what does your version of zionisn look like?Originally Posted by Ophra
Yes it is my country ... and I love it with all of my being.. I would never choose to live anywhere else.. let's hope I never have toOriginally Posted by Mediocrates
My version of Zionism is not relevant to this thread ... we are discussing the settler movement are we not ??
When I get some time I will post their version of Zionism
I'm sure that there is people out there reading this forum that don't have a clue what the settler movement is all about .
So let's have a little background .
It started with the Gush Emunim .. see here .. http://countrystudies.us/israel/102.htm
This site gives much more info .... http://theunjustmedia.com/Jewish%20Z...%20Iceberg.htm
For those of you that don't have the patience to read it all I will post parts that I see as relevant to how I feel about them
"" Ever since its formal founding in the spring of 1974, Gush Emunim has been marked by its extra-parliamentary style. The Gush was not prepared to confine itself to the framework of the law and the accepted rules of the Israeli political game. From the outset it adopted an extremist style of political action that included demonstrations, protests, unauthorized settlement and the like. Two major questions arise in this context and we shall try to answer them as fully as we can. What is the political "profile" of Gush Emunim as an extremist extra-parliamentary group? Why did Gush Emunim succeed more than any other known extra-parliamentary group in achieving its political goals?
Against the background of the gloomy public mood and the first territorial concessions in the Sinai Peninsula (in the framework of the first disengagement agreement with Egypt), Gush Emunim's founders felt it their duty to set up a barrier capable of stopping unnecessary territorial concessions. They were particularly wary of the official lukewarm position of the NRP, which was then a partner in the Labor coalition, concerning the future of Judea and Samaria. They also felt that it was necessary to promote Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria in an organized and vigorous way, and to bring about the extension of Israeli sovereignty to those territories. They regarded extra-parliamentary demonstrations and mobilization of their sympathetic public as effective means to counter the American pressure for concessions.
During the Rabin government (1974-1977) Gush Emunim operated on three planes: it organized protests and demonstrations against the interim agreements with Egypt and Syria and against the political and diplomatic activity related to these agreements; it promoted attention-focusing activities in Judea and Samaria to underscore the Jewish attachment to those parts of Eretz Israel; it carried out settlement operations in the occupied territories.
Forms of symbolic protest added a special and colorful dimension to these demonstrations; calves were brought to the Prime Minister's residence in Jerusalem and the placards that were waved read "The Rabin Government is Leading Us Like Lambs to the Slaughter" and "Kissi, Don't Milk Us, We're Not Cows." On several occasions the Gush Emunim demonstrators took up position opposite Dr. Kissinger's suite in the King David Hotel. shouted through loud-speakers, howled and hooted in order to disturb the diplomat's sleep. This activity reached a peak in October 1974, when a mass rally was held in Tel-Aviv's Malkei Yisrael Square for the recognition of Judea and Samaria as an inseparable part of the country. The rally was also an occasion to note that 460,000 people had signed a petition to that effect. After the signing of the interim agreement with Egypt and the end of Dr. Kissinger's visits to the country, the large protest activities by Gush Emunim ceased. Only small flareups, demonstrations opposite the Knesset building or the Prime Minister's office, remained in evidence that the Gush had not forsaken this avenue of activity in principle.
Gush Emunim ostensibly proved that it had succeeded in overcoming the psychological barrier of cooperation between the religious and secular camps, and in particular that it had received support for its extra-parliamentary mode of action from an elite group within the Labor movement. After Kadoum and the formation of the Ein Vered Circle, it was clear to the government in general and to Prime Minister Rabin in particular, that here was an opponent of substantial weight.
Gush Emunim's rejoicing did not last long. Despite their great expectations, the government did not come up with a large-scale settlement program. The constraints of daily policy-making, Mr. Begin's failing health, and especially American pressures, began to leave their mark on the cabinet, and the impatient Gush found itself in the position of being given the runaround by the government and the Prime Minister. It was still a sympathetic government, and the Minister of Agriculture, Ariel Sharon, did not conceal his affection for Gush Emunim, but it gradually became clear to them that even under a Likud administration, they might have to use the extra-parliamentary tactics they had devised during Rabin's regime.
The Camp David accords, the Autonomy Plan and the government's commitment to give up the Rafiah Salient struck Gush Emunim like a bolt out of the blue. This was without doubt the lowest point in its short history. Its leaders had had time enough since Sadat's visit to Jerusalem to discern what the future held in store, but the firm belief that history was on its side â€” which characterized Gush Emunim all along â€” prevented an early forecast of the dramatic event, and when it happened they were altogether at a loss. The total concession by the "Greater Israel Faithful," Menachem Begin, the paving of the way for a Palestinian state by the Autonomy Plan and the dismantling of the settlements in the Rafiah Salient left them dumbfounded. The activity of the Gush was paralyzed and its return to normal did not come about easily. The Gush people were simply too weak to manage the organization of an anti-government front by themselves and at that time were greatly assisted by other peripheral elements such as the Herut "Loyalists Circle," Professor Yuval Ne'eman, members of the Greater Israel Movement, Knesset members Geula Cohen and Moshe Shamir, several former Rafi members and others, who together formed the "Covenant of the Eretz Israel Faithful." This new association committed itself to the original platform of the Greater Israel Movement, and by its very founding in effect declared a total war on the Camp David accords. Later on, this whole group founded the Tehiya movement, which took up a decided position against Begin's determination to carry out the Camp David accords.
A clue to the Gush's ideology can be found only when we remember that all its leaders were educated in Yeshivat Merkaz ha-Rav, and when we keep in mind that the founder of Merkaz ha-Rav, the late Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak ha-Cohen Kook â€” the first Chief Rabbi of the Jews of Eretz Israel â€” was an original religious and national thinker. And indeed, interviews with Gush leaders reveal the deep impact of Kook's ideas on their beliefs. These interviews more then any written document provide the key to their ideology. Several of their cardinal points warrant closer scrutiny.
According to Rabbi Kook, the Jewish people exists today in an era in which the pangs of redemption have begun. This is attested to by the rise of modern Zionism, the political gains of the movement, the Balfour Declaration, and the entire Zionist enterprise. Since the Zionist movement in most of its manifestations has been a secular phenomenon, such a concept requires a very broad view of the Jewish people. This view, in stark contrast to the traditional orthodox concept does not make a fundamental distinction between religious Jews, who observe the mitzvot (religious injunctions) and secular Jews, who do not. But how could an orthodox rabbi like Kook promote such an idea? The key to it may be found in his unique Kabbalistic-messianic approach, according to which much more is hidden from sight than is seen. The external manifestations we encounter in our world represent only the barest fragment of cosmic existence, and God has his own ways of bringing about redemption even if those who play a messianic historic role â€” the secular Jews â€” are not fully aware of it. Historically, Rabbi Kook was able in this way to bridge serious differences in the pre-state yishuv period, a precedent that helped Gush Emunim a great deal in its contact with many secular elements in Israel of the seventies.
Rabbi Kook's historical conception explains a great deal about Gush Emunim's understanding of our present state of affairs. According to this understanding, the Six-Day War, in which Judea and Samaria were conquered, was no chance turn of events. It was an expression of another stage in the long â€” sometimes tortuous â€” messianic process that started wiili the birth of modern Zionism. This is the source of the tremendous confidence Gush Emunim has in their cause. It fits perfectly the grand design of redemption which other Israelis are unable to see. For them the struggle for Elon Moreh and their ultimate victory is also not just the story of another settlement. It is a real link in the great chain that began at the first Zionist Congress in Basle, continued with the Balfour Declaration, the struggle against the British White Paper, and the establishment of the State of Israel and the Six-Day War. Gush Emunim people thus do not live in the grayness of the day-to-day, but in the glow of history at large. This is also why Gush people â€” at least the more sophisticated among them â€” do not display hatred or animosity towards the Peace Now movement, which is seen as its political opponent. Rather, they display feelings of paternalistic solicitude. According to Gush Emunim, Peace Now lives for the moment, not for history, unaware of the full significance of the era of redemption in which we really live.
The second element in Gush Emunim's world view, is also derived from the teachings of Rabbi Kook: the belief that the Jewish people and the Land of Israel in its entirety are one. According to this view the complete Land of Israel is not limited to the post-1967 Israeli borders, but comprises the historic Land of Israel of the Covenant (Genesis 15) and the promised borders. It obviously includes the occupied territories, and especially Judea and Samaria, the very heart of the historic Israeli nation. It is interesting to note that there is no powerful drive among the Gush Emunim people for expansion beyond Western Palestine. Adhering to the view that we are living in a divine moment, they are convinced that He who took care that the War of Independence and the Six-Day War would occur, will, when the time comes, make sure that the process is continued. However, after the providential process has already taken place, one is not allowed, in Gush Emunim's view, to let weakness and faintheartedness dictate the needs of the present or relinquish what has already been achieved. It is a sacred duty to stand firm, to oppose pressures from the United States and other countries, to prevent the establishment of any Arab entity within the boundaries of the Land of Israel and to continue to assist the great process of redemption.
Thus, although Gush Emunim was established to a large extent as a single issue movement â€” to promote the extension of Israeli sovereignty to Judea and Samaria (and if possible, to all the occupied territories â€” it never confined itself to that issue alone. It is apparent from all its operations and activities that it sees itself as a movement of revival, whose task is to revitalize historic Zionisn that died out in the Israel of the fifties and sixties. According to Gush Emunim's analysis, the Israelis live now in a crisis born out of the fatigue that followed the partial implementation of Zionisn after the establishment of the State of Israel.
The settlements of Gush Emunim are in this respect more than simply the means of taking over the land of Judea and Samaria by colonizing it. To them, these settlements represent the utmost achievement, the purest Zionist activity in every sense of the term. The Gush are not socialists, of course, but they are deeply attached to the kibbutz movement which in its prime shared many of the same ideas. It is therefore not surprising that two of the most prominent leaders of Gush Emunim, Rabbi Moshe Levinger an Hanan Porat are originally religious kibbutz members. Porat comes from Kfar Etzion (which was destroyed in the 1948 war) and Levinger was formerly the rabbi of Kibbutz Lavie.
The "demographic problem," that of the fear of numerical strengthening of the Arab population in relation to the Jewish population as a result of the annexation of the densely populated Arab territories, does not disturb Gush Emunim. They think that under the Jewish political hegemony Arabs could live peacefully with a very low level of national friction.
The problem that emerges is that Gush Emunim has its own specific interpretation of the conduct of Israel's democratic regime with respect to the one issue that truly concerns the movement, namely, Eretz Israel. According to its interpretation the only legitimizing principle in whose name the State of Israel, its democratic regime and its legal system were established is Zionist settlement in all parts of Eretz Israel. In this view, democracy is a reasonable system provided it exists within a truly Zionist system. Should the two collide, Zionism takes precedence. If the majority, as represented by the Knesset of Israel, rules against it, then it must be a momentary political majority, manipulative and misleading. It must be consequently fought at all costs. It is the right and the duty of every Jew in Eretz Israel to struggle against any tendency to compromise on the issue of settlement in Judea and Samaria, even if it is proposed by the majority. When Gush Emunim people are asked how it happens that they, who show so much respect for the state, are prepared to act against the government's orders and guidelines, they reply that the existing government coalition and its legal framework do not represent the true spirit of the state. Government actions that prevent settlement may be legal but they are illegitimate. A government that prevents settlement undercuts its own legitimacy and places itself in the same position as the British Mandatory government, which undermined its legitimacy by enacting the policy of the infamous White Paper of 1939. During the period of the White Paper, illegal acts of settlement by secular Zionists were altogether legitimate; the same obtains today, and that does not imply a general anti-democratic orientation.
How, then, can Gush Emunim be understood politically? How can we explain the fact that an extremist group, which did not run for the Knesset and refused to institutionalize itself within a respectable political party, the NRP, managed for a period of seven years to cast its shadow over the government of Israel and to get it to do things to which it was initially opposed? How can we account for the remarkable political effectiveness of Gush Emunim, its impact on the Israeli mind?
What long-term empirical observation has revealed over the years is that Gush Emunim is not, as many tend to think, a fanatical group made up of a small number of people who after the Yom Kippur War were " smitten" by a messianic vision and parachuted out of the blue into a stunned Israeli society .Gush Emunim is the tip of a serious cultural and social iceberg which grew quietly over many years until circumstances shaped its extremist tip. For one who seeks to explain the tremendous political vitality of Gush Emunim a formal analysis of the history and ideology of the exposed portion of the iceberg â€” as was presented in the first part of this article â€” is not sufficient. One must proceed down towards the vast bulk of the iceberg that is hidden from view beneath the water's surface.
We have already noted that the leadership of Gush Emunim emerged almost exclusively from the Yeshivat Merkaz ha-Rav and was influenced by the teachings of Rabbi Kook as interpreted by his son, Rabbi Zvi Yehuda. No less important is the fact that most of the leaders of Gush Emunim came to Merkaz ha-Rav from the world of the so-called "knitted skullcaps", the Bnei Akiva youth movement, ha-Poel ha-Mizrahi and adherents of the notion of Torah va-Avodah (Torah and Labor â€” the founders of the Religious Kibbutz Movement which cooperated with its secular counterpart). It is important to note the spiritual underpinnings of these roots because the process under consideration pertains not only to Gush Emunim but also to one of the central transformations that have taken place in Israeli society, and which has not yet been adequately studied. Although there was no outright Kulturkampf in the fifties and sixties, there was nevertheless a power play in which the victors were the religious educational system and the subculture of ha-Poel ha-Mizrahi and the "knitted skullcaps" (Bnei Akiva). In contrast to the other sectors of the Zionist educational system, which in the course of being nationalized lost their normative character and underwent an astonishing dilution, the religious Zionists developed an educational system which created norms of life and behavior of the highest order for a quarter of the school population. Thus, the religious Zionist public was spared the general decline that beset the country's secular educational system, and indeed, may even have been consolidated by it. Around that educational system, totalistic life patterns were created for an entire public, which reinforced its religious life not only at home and in the synagogue, but also (for its children) in the neighborhood kindergarten, in the ulpanah (religious academy for girls) or yeshiva (religious academy for men).
Within this slow but massive cultural process of educational transformation emerged the unique revival of Yeshivat Merkaz ha-Rav. After the death of its founder, it fell into decline until the end of the 1950s when a new Bnei Akiva generation revitalized the old school. This new generation listened eagerly to the interpretations of the son of Rabbi Kook to the teaching of his father and infused it with nationalistic meaning. When the war of June 1967 broke out, these youngsters were ripe and ready to formulate a new religious Zionist ideology, but not however, before witnessing a unique, almost miraculous event.
On the eve of Independence Day, 1967, a group of graduates of the yeshiva met at Merkaz ha-Rav for an alumni get-together. As was his custom, the erstwhile Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook delivered a festive sermon, in the midst of which his quiet tone suddenly rose to crescendo, bewailing the partition of historic Eretz Israel. His faithful students were led to believe that this situation was intolerable and could not last for long. When three weeks later in June 1967 they discovered themselves to be citizens of an enlarged State of Israel, the graduates of Merkaz ha-Rav were convinced that a genuine spirit of prophecy had come over their rabbi on that Independence Day.
They, his faithful students, became holy emissaries equipped with unshakable confidence in the rightness of their mission and in the divine backing for their activity. At one stroke a flame was lit and the conditions were ripe for imparting to the entire subculture of the "knitted skullcaps" â€” the submerged part of the iceberg â€” the new political ideology of a greater Eretz Israel. Today it is clear that from being a social and spiritual subculture, most of the "knitted skullcap" community has become a public with a political consciousness. According to the new ideology, the historic Land of Israel must now pass into the hands of the Jewish people not only by military action but also by settlement and political activity â€” that is, by imposing Israeli sovereignty.
Not all the religious public was swept by the new spirit. The Religious Kibbutz Movement, for example, and its most prominent leaders have retained deep reservations about this revolution in thought. So too has the Oz ve-Shalom (Strength and Peace) movement of religious intellectuals, and presumably many others, including heads of yeshivot and rabbis. But it is clear today that between 1967 and 1973 most "knitted skullcaps" went through a process of "Eretz-Israelization." This ideological maximalization was not effected only by people from Yeshivat Merkaz ha-Rav. A sizable role was also played by the "Young Guard" of the NRP as well, of course, as the Greater Israel Movement.
The understanding of the full magnitude of the cultural transformation of the national religious bloc may help us in the original task we set for ourselves â€” the analytical explanation of Gush Emunim and its unprecedented effectiveness in Israeli politics. Thus instead of the common conception of the Gush as an isolated group of religious fanatics, who emerged from nowhere in the wake of the Yom Kippur War, the iceberg analogy and its empirical verification serves us better. It shows Gush Emunim as the tip of an iceberg that on a single issue â€” settlement â€” has become extra-parliamentary .
It is now clear, for example, that most of the organized transport and equipment for the early operations were contributed by official institutions such as yeshivot, youth centers and settlements. They credited all of these expenses to their official budgets, without having to provide an accounting to anyone, or having to distinguish between their expenses for legal and illegal activities. Since Gush Emunim was recently recognized by the World Zionist Organization as a settlement movement, considerable funds have begun to stream to its settlements through this channel. These settlements were naturally not intended to finance illegal or anti-government activities, but when illegal operations do take place, nobody is in a position to distinguish them from legal ones.
What is important, however, is that the last electoral failure neither reduced in any way the real strength of Gush Emunim nor damaged its potential political influence. Any Israeli government that tries to sever the link between these people and their settlements will find itself fiercely opposed, not only by Gush Emunim but also by the "iceberg" of its many supporters. These supporters may not have voted Tehiya in the last elections but they will not hesitate to rally around Gush Emunim"s flag in time of crisis. At best then, Gush Emunim will remain loyal to the present parliamentary system and its rules, but in the worst instance it will not hesitate to resort to extra-parliamentary action against a serious adversary. The deep cultural links of Gush Emunim members with the "knitted skullcap" iceberg and with the National Religious Party will make it difficult in the future, as it did in the past, to use military force against them, or even to apply strong political pressure. Anyone who deludes himself into thinking that it would be possible to bring about the collapse of Gush settlements by shutting off the flow of funds or resorting to similar means does not know whom he is dealing with.
Of particular interest today is the next goal of Gush Emunim which is the effort to prevent, by a very decisive extra-parliamentary campaign, the evacuation of the town of Yamit and the Israeli settlements in the Rafiah Salient. There are many indications that this struggle may even cast a shadow on the Gush's "Golden Age" of illegal settlement. With Begin as prestigious Prime Minister and Ariel Sharon as Minister of Defense, Gush Emunim's total success seems highly unlikely. The struggle however will probably be very tortuous, perhaps even bloody.
Both the supporters and detractors of Gush Emunim are thus aware that it has become a fact of Israeli political life and that it is there to stay. If this implies that political life will henceforward contain a permanent extra-parliamentary element, then that is exactly what we want to imply. Gush Emunim has undoubtedly altered the rules of the game in Israeli politics and today it is included among the players. It thus appears that "pre-Gush" politics belong to the past, never to return. Though extra-parliamentary action was not introduced into Israeli politics by Gush Emunim, the Gush has greatly increased its role there and will hold the fore for a long time to come.
Yes rather than respond to our posts directly, start posting propaganda demonising Jewish citizens living in Judea/Samaria and Gaza instead. Nice tactic and certainly one of your favourtie past times.
Yes, I'm sure there are people out their reading this forum who dont have a clue about what the "settler" movement is all about. So do what I do and visit these places and meet its wonderful and friendly people - instead of reading and accepting the usual misleading propaganda along with its false sterotypes, lies and distortions. I would also suggest finding out who supports these "crazy fanatics" who are probably worse than Hamas and how much actual support these "crazies" recieve from Israelis representing all walks of Israeli and Jewish life - religious and secular alike.
Noting that the biggest demonstrations in Israeli history were against disengagement and in favor of these "crazies" who are apparently worse than Hamas terrorists is a start and should give us an idea of the level of support they recieve from their fellow Jews.
Gush Emunim hasn't really existed as a coherent political entity in many years. I think most of the references in that article are 30 years old.
I wonder if the poster has a complete revulsion for all the Jews in East Jerusalem too? How about Gush Etzion? The last time I looked about half the communities in the West Bank labeled themselves as "non religious" or "mixed" and almost all the communities in Bikat HaYarden are self labeled as "non religious Kibbutz/Moshav". Sso while the ideology that lead to the founding of the orginal communities may have been religiously inspired the facts on the ground today don't bear that out.
Originally Posted by Hierophant
Sure, it's easy to draw that parallel. Another interesting parallel, which the author of the article points to, is how much more they resemble the original Labor party than the Labor party of today.
None the less, if you peel back why some of them left for Yesha in the first place it was because they were ideologically inspired or they were economically disadvantaged or they didn't feel comfortable inside of Israel.
And none of those problems went away. In fact what you see I think is a great desire to do away with the Jewish suburbs of Yesha w/o wanting to take all those people back. So while the disengagement folks make a good case for the economic rationality of removing 9000 Gazans, that doesn't magically disappear as cost. They will still need homes and schools and livelihoods and they will have to be integrated into an ungrateful country that really doens't want them. I suspect they will be sent off to the Negev and in 10 years and the same people as today will be screaming about the 'outrageous' expense of maintaining farms in the Negev for the 'religious nuts'.
What's next? Living on the Rez?
Originally Posted by Mediocrates
I agree. Will expand the thought later....
It's not propaganda Leon... it's history... if you don't agree with that ..then post your own version of history.Originally Posted by Leon
"" Noting that the biggest demonstrations in Israeli history were against disengagement and in favor of these "crazies" who are apparently worse than Hamas terrorists is a start and should give us an idea of the level of support they recieve from their fellow Jews ""
... back it up Bubba .. because if you can't ... I can.
Patience man... patienceOriginally Posted by Mediocrates
You started the thread... I'm laying the ground work... starting from the ground up
Your version of history is what I would call cheap propaganda - based on lies and false + misleading sterotypes, designed to demonise and marginalise a group of people.Originally Posted by Ophra
your certainly welcome to Zeyda"" Noting that the biggest demonstrations in Israeli history were against disengagement and in favor of these "crazies" who are apparently worse than Hamas terrorists is a start and should give us an idea of the level of support they recieve from their fellow Jews ""
... back it up Bubba .. because if you can't ... I can.
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