It's just a little different. The Christian fundamentalists like Shoebat see Israel as a means to an ends. It's the first step towards the second coming, when all heathens, such as Jews and Muslims, will either convert to Christianity or burn in hell.
Originally Posted by Reffo
I don't dismiss their views, they're not just not especially relevant to our discussion.
Yes, in the same way as you dismiss the views of Irshad Manji, Nonnie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel and Shoebat.
If you want to see changes in Palaestnian society what is more effective, supporting and encouraging Palestinians who are advocates of human rights, democracy and internal reform within Palestinian society, or champoining the cause of individuals doing the speaking circuit in America.
I don't think it's too hard to see which will make more diffference.
I think that this is exactly what the new historians represent. What Morris, Pappe etc represent is a moving away from a national mythology that presented Israel as entirely blameless. It seems that it is just this process that you have a problem with.
Look Sumud, I am trying to tell you that it is not realistic for the Palestinians to expect that EVERYONE has to accept their one sided version of history, just the same as Jews/Israelis too cannot be so intransigent.
My suspicion is that as in any human disagreement, the truth lies somewhere in between the two. Maybe it's skewed more in favour of one rather than the other but in order to get to some agreed position, BOTH sides have to have an open mind.
That the truth lies roughly mid-way between two oppposing narratives does seem to have some attraction as an idea, but there is no logical reason for this to be true.
I've pointed out to several Palestinians who are doing exactly this. That you can write this may say something about your own "blind spot".
My problem with the current situation is that I sense a fairly closed mind from the supporters of the Palestinians (even people like yourself who does at least attempt to engage in some intelligent discussion).
I don't want to insult you, but I liken this approach to "Tunnel Vision" it's as if you have a collective "Blind Spot" because you don't seem to have the capacity for self criticism and accept that at least some of your misfortunes stem from your own past mistakes. Sure, you may accuse some of us of the same flaw but I think that on the whole, the Israeli/Jewish society does seem to have the capacity to look at itself more critically and there is plenty of internal debate going on within our ranks, at this point in our history.
Maybe you've forgotton already, so I'll give you a reminder of the kind of debate currently within Palestine,
Some used to believe that Yasser Arafat was the one standing in the way of elections. But it has become apparent now that there is a consensus on this from Fatehâ€™s leadership.
Reform is impossible in a one-party system, a truth that lies at the core of the backwardness and corruption in the Arab world. How can one party, movement or faction be the head of state, the head of the Authority, the head of the PLC, the head of the cabinet, head of the security services and the head of all the ministries and the monitoring commission? And then call for reform?
Reform is impossible in light of one-party control over all the authorities, especially of the bodies meant to monitor the executive authority.
How can over half of the members of the PLC be in the government and at the same time be asked to monitor them? And how can there be reform if there is no real parliamentary opposition that puts the interests of the homeland and the people before them?
How can we put a stop to the interference of the security services in the affairs of the people without a monitoring apparatus based on law, transparency and accountability?
The chaos Fateh and the PA are currently undergoing is an issue that has extended over the decades. What they have become is a result of an accumulation of mistakes without any strategic vision for construction and without a reorganization of its ranks. (Al-Quds, June 10)
In case you don't know, Al-Quds is the largest daily newsaper in the West Bank.