poll: majority Israelis and Palestinians want the "Clinton Plan" borders

[NiekNL]

Yes, I have heard about her, wasn't she the one who put up the Palestinian flag on her house ? What happened to her ? Is she still in the news ?

Well, as I said, only when she is trown out of Israel again, I'm glad that's the only thing she comes on the news with. Even if I just see her face I get sick at instance. And she was indeed the one with the Palestinian flag on her house. One good thing was the removal of the Palestinian and the attachment of an israeli flag by I don't know who.

[Sumud]

OK Sumud, so you ARE saying that in your opinion there are no such Palestinians who are as self critical and who are apologists for the other side to the same extent as Pappe, Avneri and Aloni (which means that on the Palestinian side they would have similar opinions as Nonie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel and Irshad Manji). I have no problems with that, we will just have to agree to disagree because I feel that on the balance of probabilities you are likely to be mistaken. I am however somewhat disappointed that you did not clearly say this when I asked you the same question directly, several times.

No. I'm saying that your categorisations are purely subjective.
We don’t seem to be progressing on this. Your argument is becoming more thread bare as we go. You continue to rely on a fallacious ‘symmetry’ argument that misrepresents one range of views, to justify your expectation of a very particular POV from Palestinians. You represent the views of this group of Israelis as being generally "apologists" (in your words) as if they have never uttered a single word that critically looks at Palestinian actions, or that their criticisms of Israel are just "pro-Palestinian" partisanship . This misrepresentation is the basis of your rejection of Dr Sarraj as nothing more than a “moderate”. It’s this kind of extreme simplification that is needed to leap across the gaping holes in the logic of your argument.
I just wonder how much you've read of the works of the Israelis you characterised this way. Maybe you’ve read critiques of them on sites that specialise in this kind of thing – condemnation and a few brief quotes to show how terrible they are. I like to think of them as ‘take-away opinions’, quick and easy without the need to think for yourself.

It’s a pity, because our discussions were quite constructive before you veered off onto this detour. It’s just seems like a bit of petty point-scoring that I’d expect from MGB8 rather than you.

All you had to say was that you don't believe that any Palestinian holds such points of view. But my question to you then: Are there Palestinians who hold similar views to Nonie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel and Irshad Manji ? Or is that also an absurd meaningless question ?
.

I'm not entirely sure what the views of an Egyptian Christian, a Lebanese Christian or a ex-Muslim from Uganda, who all live in America, might have to do with our point.

[Reffo]

It’s a pity, because our discussions were quite constructive before you veered off onto this detour. It’s just seems like a bit of petty point-scoring that I’d expect from MGB8 rather than you.

Yes, I do agee with you that before this topic our discussions tended to be more constructive. However, I don't know how to convince you that I am not just tying to score points, I actually think that this topic is vey important for both our peoples. You have to understand that BOTH Isaelis and Palestinians have a profound sense of having been wronged by the other. So, in order to move on and to be willing to acknowledge any wrongs, either BOTH peoples will have to do it or NEITHER will.

You continue to rely on a fallacious ‘symmetry’ argument that misrepresents one range of views, to justify your expectation of a very particular POV from Palestinians.

Ok, have you had a look at my post 450 about Walid Shoebat, a Palestinian who now lives in the US ? Click Here

"In 1993 I started looking into my enemy's book, the Tanach," he told the Bridges to Israel gathering, "and I came to the conclusion that the Jewish people are the most peaceful people on earth."

Now he is a Christian, whose love for Israel and the Jewish people is genuine.

"I come to you out of love for your people and your Bible, to say my people are wrong. The Arabs and Muslims are wrong.

"The Jew has the right to return to his land. Does this make me a fanatic? Fine!"
His beliefs have strained his relationship with his family. "My own father wants to kill me," he said. At a family reunion several years ago, he was told he must have been brainwashed by the Jews. Fundamentalist Muslims have said he must die because he abandoned Islam, he added. But this doesn't sway him.

He is a Palestinian whose father and even he himself at one time, before he began to see the other side of the story, was fighting the Israelis. He has now become a complete moderate and sides with Israel. That's the type of person that I was talking about and you see ? He is not fictitious at all but he lives in the US because his life would be in danger if he set foot in the WB or Gaza.

As I said Sumud, it's not just point scoring, it's important fo both sides to see that there are people on the other side who can see the humanity of the opposition. It's also important to see that such people are not automatically jailed or terminated because that also sends the wrong message. So, I hope that you will start addressing this issue seriously.

[Sumud]

Yes, I do agee with you that before this topic our discussions tended to be more constructive. However, I don't know how to convince you that I am not just tying to score points, I actually think that this topic is vey important for both our peoples. You have to understand that BOTH Isaelis and Palestinians have a profound sense of having been wronged by the other. So, in order to move on and to be willing to acknowledge any wrongs, either BOTH peoples will have to do it or NEITHER will.

Ok, have you had a look at my post 450 about Walid Shoebat, a Palestinian who now lives in the US ? Click Here
He is a Palestinian whose father and even he himself at one time, before he began to see the other side of the story, was fighting the Israelis. He has now become a complete moderate and sides with Israel. That's the type of person that I was talking about and you see ? He is not fictitious at all but he lives in the US because his life would be in danger if he set foot in the WB or Gaza.

As I said Sumud, it's not just point scoring, it's important fo both sides to see that there are people on the other side who can see the humanity of the opposition. It's also important to see that such people are not automatically jailed or terminated because that also sends the wrong message. So, I hope that you will start addressing this issue seriously.

Yeah, it’s hard not to have heard of Mr. Shoebat. I won’t bore you with my views on this, but there are a few aspects which are interesting. One, that it’s curious that supporters of Israel rush to embrace Christian fundamentalists, given their apocalyptic views. And I find it a little hard to take seriously the claims of people about the importance of freedom etc, when they use assumed identities.

I agree about he need to look realistically at the past, but we obviously have different ideas about how to do this. I think that recognising and encouraging people such as Dr. Sarraj, who are living and working in Palestinian society, is far more important than deifying a few individuals living in America who say something you like. The work of recent Israeli historians is also important in this regard, yet you simply dismiss them as just “apologetics”, which doesn’t seem much like the acknowledgment you advocate.

[MGB8]

Until there is intellectual honesty from the Palestinian/Arab side, there is no chance at peace.

Honesty means recognizing that the Pal Arab/Arab societies right now chill certain opinions with severe consequences, and this is manifested by the fact that you have a range of opinions towards yourself and "the other" which are reflected publically in Israeli society, American society, and even Arab society OUTSIDE THE ARAB WORLD, but not Arab society inside the Arab world. This is not "point scoring," this is a matter of basic truth.

The ability to relay an accurate version of the other side's narrative is also essential to honesty, and this to resolution. It allows you to fairly evaluate the other sides narrative as well as your own and come to conclusions as to the truth.

An inability to acknowledge truth makes negotiations impossible, compromise impossible, and means that there will be war until one side wins completely, and the other side loses completely. And that means that the Pal Arabs will lose, and be exiled - frankly, that is what it looks like they are on a path to - if you had to predict the likely future events, I think it is most likely that there will be the disengagement from Gaza, that Israel will further pull out of 60% of the WB, as another "step forward" towards an illusory peace, that from this position the Arabs will finally succeed in a massive strike, and that this will result in retaliation that will end this war by expelling the Arabs from the WB and Gaza, and that furthermore, because Israel has made all these concessions in the past, that the international community will not come to the Arab's aid, and certainly not the Arab nations themselves, who do not want to risk another humiliation, much less destruciton of their cities and holy places.

Right now, because of dishonesty like Sumud shows over and over again, which I do keep track of, not to score points, but to show faults, the Palestinians are on a path to their own ruin. I guess they think that they can "win" - that they can get everything, meaning the eventual destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. If so, they don't understand Jews very well.

[Reffo]

Yeah, it’s hard not to have heard of Mr. Shoebat. I won’t bore you with my views on this, but there are a few aspects which are interesting. One, that it’s curious that supporters of Israel rush to embrace Christian fundamentalists, given their apocalyptic views.

Why is it so surprising? It is the same as Palestinians embracing Jews who support or are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

I agree about he need to look realistically at the past, but we obviously have different ideas about how to do this. I think that recognising and encouraging people such as Dr. Sarraj, who are living and working in Palestinian society, is far more important than deifying a few individuals living in America who say something you like.

Yes, I for one do recognise and encourage the likes of Dr Sarraj, at least as far as he goes. However, he stops a bit short because he expects Israelis to apologise about wrong doings but he does not see the need for Palestinians to apologise for their culpability and mis-deeds.

The work of recent Israeli historians is also important in this regard, yet you simply dismiss them as just “apologetics”, which doesn’t seem much like the acknowledgment you advocate.

Yes, in the same way as you dismiss the views of Irshad Manji, Nonnie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel and Shoebat.

Look Sumud, I am trying to tell you that it is not realistic for the Palestinians to expect that EVERYONE has to accept their one sided version of history, just the same as Jews/Israelis too cannot be so intransigent. My suspicion is that as in any human disagreement, the truth lies somewhere in between the two. Maybe it's skewed more in favour of one rather than the other but in order to get to some agreed position, BOTH sides have to have an open mind. My problem with the current situation is that I sense a fairly closed mind from the supporters of the Palestinians (even people like yourself who does at least attempt to engage in some intelligent discussion). I don't want to insult you, but I liken this approach to "Tunnel Vision" it's as if you have a collective "Blind Spot" because you don't seem to have the capacity for self criticism and accept that at least some of your misfortunes stem from your own past mistakes. Sure, you may accuse some of us of the same flaw but I think that on the whole, the Israeli/Jewish society does seem to have the capacity to look at itself more critically and there is plenty of internal debate going on within our ranks, at this point in our history.

In summary, all I am trying to tell you is that if Palestinian society too would open up a bit more with REAL SELF CRITICISM, it would be beneficial to your society but even more importantly, it would encourage even more Jews/Israelis to make even more of a similar effort as well. The bottom line is that as long as we see your extreme reluctance to acknowledge your history, many of us will be content to sit back and keep as quiet as possible about our mistakes (which we probably made in this 120 year old war).

[Sumud]

Why is it so surprising? It is the same as Palestinians embracing Jews who support or are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

It's just a little different. The Christian fundamentalists like Shoebat see Israel as a means to an ends. It's the first step towards the second coming, when all heathens, such as Jews and Muslims, will either convert to Christianity or burn in hell.

Yes, in the same way as you dismiss the views of Irshad Manji, Nonnie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel and Shoebat.

I don't dismiss their views, they're not just not especially relevant to our discussion.

If you want to see changes in Palaestnian society what is more effective, supporting and encouraging Palestinians who are advocates of human rights, democracy and internal reform within Palestinian society, or champoining the cause of individuals doing the speaking circuit in America.

I don't think it's too hard to see which will make more diffference.

Look Sumud, I am trying to tell you that it is not realistic for the Palestinians to expect that EVERYONE has to accept their one sided version of history, just the same as Jews/Israelis too cannot be so intransigent. My suspicion is that as in any human disagreement, the truth lies somewhere in between the two. Maybe it's skewed more in favour of one rather than the other but in order to get to some agreed position, BOTH sides have to have an open mind.

I think that this is exactly what the new historians represent. What Morris, Pappe etc represent is a moving away from a national mythology that presented Israel as entirely blameless. It seems that it is just this process that you have a problem with.

That the truth lies roughly mid-way between two oppposing narratives does seem to have some attraction as an idea, but there is no logical reason for this to be true.

My problem with the current situation is that I sense a fairly closed mind from the supporters of the Palestinians (even people like yourself who does at least attempt to engage in some intelligent discussion). I don't want to insult you, but I liken this approach to "Tunnel Vision" it's as if you have a collective "Blind Spot" because you don't seem to have the capacity for self criticism and accept that at least some of your misfortunes stem from your own past mistakes. Sure, you may accuse some of us of the same flaw but I think that on the whole, the Israeli/Jewish society does seem to have the capacity to look at itself more critically and there is plenty of internal debate going on within our ranks, at this point in our history.

I've pointed out to several Palestinians who are doing exactly this. That you can write this may say something about your own "blind spot".

Maybe you've forgotton already, so I'll give you a reminder of the kind of debate currently within Palestine,

Some used to believe that Yasser Arafat was the one standing in the way of elections. But it has become apparent now that there is a consensus on this from Fateh’s leadership.

Reform is impossible in a one-party system, a truth that lies at the core of the backwardness and corruption in the Arab world. How can one party, movement or faction be the head of state, the head of the Authority, the head of the PLC, the head of the cabinet, head of the security services and the head of all the ministries and the monitoring commission? And then call for reform?

Reform is impossible in light of one-party control over all the authorities, especially of the bodies meant to monitor the executive authority.

How can over half of the members of the PLC be in the government and at the same time be asked to monitor them? And how can there be reform if there is no real parliamentary opposition that puts the interests of the homeland and the people before them?

How can we put a stop to the interference of the security services in the affairs of the people without a monitoring apparatus based on law, transparency and accountability?

The chaos Fateh and the PA are currently undergoing is an issue that has extended over the decades. What they have become is a result of an accumulation of mistakes without any strategic vision for construction and without a reorganization of its ranks. (Al-Quds, June 10)

In case you don't know, Al-Quds is the largest daily newsaper in the West Bank.

[Reffo]

It's just a little different. The Christian fundamentalists like Shoebat see Israel as a means to an ends.

No Sumud it's not. Even if he is like that (and I have no evidence that he is, but that's not the point), the point is that he is a Palestinian and he seems to understand that Israelis are human beings too, that they too have suffered and no it was NOT all their fault and that they have gripes and rights too. Believe it or not, such phenomenon is important to Jews/Israelis.

I don't dismiss their views, they're not just not especially relevant to our discussion.

Correction! They are not important to YOUR discussion. I certainly beg to differ, as far as I am concerned, they are A CENTRAL POINT of our discussion. Just re-read my previous post if you want to understand why!

If you want to see changes in Palaestnian society what is more effective, supporting and encouraging Palestinians who are advocates of human rights, democracy and internal reform within Palestinian society, or champoining the cause of individuals doing the speaking circuit in America.

I don't think it's too hard to see which will make more diffference.

Hey, I am NOT belittling that. I agree that too is extremely important but I don't want our discussion to stop there. Do you know why? Because if you just fix that and stop there, it will NOT SOLVE our mutual problems. The enmity (and consequently the war) will still remain. The only difference will be that it will just be a war between two democracies (I suppose, historically such a thing is a rare event but it has happened). Again, just look back and re-read my previous post (more carefully this time) to see why I am of such an opinion.

I think that this is exactly what the new historians represent. What Morris, Pappe etc represent is a moving away from a national mythology that presented Israel as entirely blameless. It seems that it is just this process that you have a problem with.

That the truth lies roughly mid-way between two oppposing narratives does seem to have some attraction as an idea, but there is no logical reason for this to be true.

Yes, maybe so Sumud, but again you are missing the central part of my point. These new historians are examples of JEWS who according to you found the mid way argument (many of us disagree but that's not the point). My point is that we want to see evidence that Palestinian society too would tolerate such controversial POVs even if not many would agree with it, but at least it would be willing to debate it with words rather than bullets. So I want to see where are the PALESTINIANS in the Gaza and/or the WB who present such "Mid Way" arguments and who admit a fair degree of Palestinian/Arab culpability for the wars and the mutual suffering of the two people?

I've pointed out to several Palestinians who are doing exactly this. That you can write this may say something about your own "blind spot".

Maybe you've forgotton already, so I'll give you a reminder of the kind of debate currently within Palestine,

You are continually missing my point as I will explain below for each one of your examples:

Some used to believe that Yasser Arafat was the one standing in the way of elections. But it has become apparent now that there is a consensus on this from Fateh’s leadership.

Great but where does this exhibit empathy towards the Israelis? Where does it demonstrate at least some acceptance that some of the culpability for the wars rests with Palestinians/Arabs?

Reform is impossible in a one-party system, a truth that lies at the core of the backwardness and corruption in the Arab world. How can one party, movement or faction be the head of state, the head of the Authority, the head of the PLC, the head of the cabinet, head of the security services and the head of all the ministries and the monitoring commission? And then call for reform?

Great but where does this exhibit empathy towards the Israelis? Where does it demonstrate at least some acceptance that some of the culpability for the wars rests with Palestinians/Arabs?

Reform is impossible in light of one-party control over all the authorities, especially of the bodies meant to monitor the executive authority.

Great but where does this exhibit empathy towards the Israelis? Where does it demonstrate at least some acceptance that some of the culpability for the wars rests with Palestinians/Arabs?

How can over half of the members of the PLC be in the government and at the same time be asked to monitor them? And how can there be reform if there is no real parliamentary opposition that puts the interests of the homeland and the people before them?

Great but where does this exhibit empathy towards the Israelis? Where does it demonstrate at least some acceptance that some of the culpability for the wars rests with Palestinians/Arabs?

How can we put a stop to the interference of the security services in the affairs of the people without a monitoring apparatus based on law, transparency and accountability?

Great but where does this exhibit empathy towards the Israelis? Where does it demonstrate at least some acceptance that some of the culpability for the wars rests with Palestinians/Arabs?

The chaos Fateh and the PA are currently undergoing is an issue that has extended over the decades. What they have become is a result of an accumulation of mistakes without any strategic vision for construction and without a reorganization of its ranks. (Al-Quds, June 10)

Great but where does this exhibit empathy towards the Israelis? Where does it demonstrate at least some acceptance that some of the culpability for the wars rests with Palestinians/Arabs?

[Sumud]

No Sumud it's not. Even if he is like that (and I have no evidence that he is, but that's not the point), the point is that he is a Palestinian and he seems to understand that Israelis are human beings too, that they too have suffered and no it was NOT all their fault and that they have gripes and rights too. Believe it or not, such phenomenon is important to Jews/Israelis.

I hate to bust your bubble, but he's probably not a Palestinian, but that's beside the point.

I'm not quite sure where the idea that Palestinians think that Israelis have no rights. The majority support for a 2 state solution means that peopel believe Israel has a right to a state that comprises the majority of 'Palestine'.

Correction! They are not important to YOUR discussion. I certainly beg to differ, as far as I am concerned, they are A CENTRAL POINT of our discussion. Just re-read my previous post if you want to understand why!

I couldn't see much of relevance in the views of a Canadian citizen from Uganda whose primary concern is Islam.

Hey, I am NOT belittling that. I agree that too is extremely important but I don't want our discussion to stop there. Do you know why? Because if you just fix that and stop there, it will NOT SOLVE our mutual problems. The enmity (and consequently the war) will still remain. The only difference will be that it will just be a war between two democracies (I suppose, historically such a thing is a rare event but it has happened). Again, just look back and re-read my previous post (more carefully this time) to see why I am of such an opinion.

I understand your point, but I simply don't agree. I also think it's a little naive. I don't see that such a thing will make a huge difference to families who have lost relatives in suicide bombings. That kind of enmity will fade slowly (hopefully).

Yes, maybe so Sumud, but again you are missing the central part of my point. These new historians are examples of JEWS who according to you found the mid way argument (many of us disagree but that's not the point). My point is that we want to see evidence that Palestinian society too would tolerate such controversial POVs even if not many would agree with it, but at least it would be willing to debate it with words rather than bullets. So I want to see where are the PALESTINIANS in the Gaza and/or the WB who present such "Mid Way" arguments and who admit a fair degree of Palestinian/Arab culpability for the wars and the mutual suffering of the two people?

I don't necessarily think that they have found a 'mid-way' point, rather that they have moved away from mythological Israeli history towards something more like objective reality.

Since you tend to see these Israelis as "apologists", is that what you are looking for, a Palestinian apologist for Israel?

You are continually missing my point as I will explain below for each one of your examples:

Yeah sorry, I was forgetting about your obsession with the notion that diametrically opposing arguments represent the full spectrum of reality.

[Reffo]

I hate to bust your bubble, but he's probably not a Palestinian, but that's beside the point.

Probably? Do you know this for sure? Can you prove it? Or is it just more comfortable to think so?

I'm not quite sure where the idea that Palestinians think that Israelis have no rights. The majority support for a 2 state solution means that peopel believe Israel has a right to a state that comprises the majority of 'Palestine'.

That's it? Well, in case you didn't know, the majority of Israelis/Jews support a two state solution. However I don't see a solution in sight yet. Can you?

I couldn't see much of relevance in the views of a Canadian citizen from Uganda whose primary concern is Islam.

What about the others (who are all Arabs and one is A Palestinian)? All of them (including Irshad) talk about the Arab Israeli conflict not just about Islam. Have you read their writings? Do you know that they clearly acknowledge that the Arabs/Palestinians too are culpable for the continuation of this conflict? They attribute a significant responsibility for this ongoing war on the Arabs/Palestinians because:

• They did not acknowledge historic Jewish rights (back in 1948)
• They demonize Jews
• They don't want to accept the humanity of Jews
• They shun compromise and have maximalist demands

You don't see the relevance of the above to our discussion?

I understand your point, but I simply don't agree. I also think it's a little naive. I don't see that such a thing will make a huge difference to families who have lost relatives in suicide bombings. That kind of enmity will fade slowly (hopefully).

Take it from me, it will make some difference at least to some of them. In the same way that Dr Sarraj seems to attach great importance to the idea that Israel/Israelis should apologize to Palestinians but for some odd reason, he and others don't seem to see the importance of a reciprocal gesture from Palestinians/Arabs towards Israel/Israelis.

I don't necessarily think that they have found a 'mid-way' point, rather that they have moved away from mythological Israeli history towards something more like objective reality.

Since you tend to see these Israelis as "apologists", is that what you are looking for, a Palestinian apologist for Israel?

You keep on saying that but of course you are not biased are you? But I told you, that is not the point of this discussion but you don't seem to want to hear me, you just want to talk AT ME. You really ought to learn to listen as well.....Oh well, maybe some day........

Yeah sorry, I was forgetting about your obsession with the notion that diametrically opposing arguments represent the full spectrum of reality.

What about your obsession of reality that:

• Palestinians are the ONLY wronged victims
• Palestinians/Arabs did not start any wars, not even in 1947/48
• Egypt and Syria were not the ones who were responsible for the 1967 war
• It is wrong for Israel to retaliate against indiscriminate terrorism against it's civilians
• Even though the Arabs/Palestinians openly and publicly threatened to drive the Jews into the sea (in other words: Commit Genocide), they did not mean this and it's just Jewish paranoia.

In your opinion, the terrorism, the demonization, the threats and the actual wars are just minor events in history that the Jews should just dismiss and get over it. No, they only need to apologize for their wrongs but the Arabs/Palestinians have done no wrong, they are the only ones who were wronged and only they deserve an apology. That's your idea of a midway POV? Get real!

[Reffo]

I hate to bust your bubble, but he's probably not a Palestinian, but that's beside the point.

Oh Sumud, you really do have a blindspot don't you? You accuse me that I am too biased to recognize the POV of the new historians. OK then, but it could not possibly be your bias that makes it difficult for you to even recognize and accept the identity of a Palestinian like Shoebat? And it's not your bias that calls the views of Muslims/Arabs like Irshad Manji, Nonnie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel irrelevant?

The fact that I brought them up and wanted to talk about them and their views, does not matter to you. As far as you are concerned, their views are irrelevant just because they put you out of your comfort zone? And you assert that my views are jaundiced?, You are a classic example of "The Pot Calling the Kettle Black". At least I acknowledged the probability that Israel made mistakes in 120 years of war. What have you acknowledged about Arab/Palestinian mistakes against Jews/Israelis? You really are much more intransigent than I imagined you to be!

[Sumud]

It's possible that he really is, it's just not probable. No one I've talked to recognises him. Of course, this proves nothing. But hiding his name makes me suspect that what he is tying to do is to hide his origins, which, if revealed, might make his story a bit less popular. The favored theory is that he is an ex-Phalangist from Lebanon.

I just thought that Irshad Manji was a bit of a stretch to introduce to the discussion. I'm sue we could find someone from Iceland or South America with a similiar opinion. What would be the relevance?

I didn't realise that you wanted my personal views on "mistakes", I thought that we were discussing the general range of views.

However, if you want my personal take on it, I'm happy to oblige. I don't think it will be too hard to outdo your tough stance ( ) on Israel that it 'probably' made some mistakes.

[Sumud]

That's it? Well, in case you didn't know, the majority of Israelis/Jews support a two state solution. However I don't see a solution in sight yet. Can you?

Not just yet. But i wouldn't thought that recognising the others right to their state was a fairly significant part of the equation.

You keep on saying that but of course you are not biased are you? But I told you, that is not the point of this discussion but you don't seem to want to hear me, you just want to talk AT ME. You really ought to learn to listen as well.....Oh well, maybe some day........

Your point is little more than there should be controversy for the sake of controversy.
It's a little odd that your such an advocate of it for the Palestinains when you're clearly less than happy about the Israeli version, referring to them as "extremists" and "apologists".

But then it's not about making people happy or trying to satisfy some strained notion of balance, but about acknowledging reality as best as possible.

What about your obsession of reality that:

• Palestinians are the ONLY wronged victims
• Palestinians/Arabs did not start any wars, not even in 1947/48
• Egypt and Syria were not the ones who were responsible for the 1967 war
• It is wrong for Israel to retaliate against indiscriminate terrorism against it's civilians
• Even though the Arabs/Palestinians openly and publicly threatened to drive the Jews into the sea (in other words: Commit Genocide), they did not mean this and it's just Jewish paranoia.

Funny, I don't recall saying any of that.

In your opinion, the terrorism, the demonization, the threats and the actual wars are just minor events in history that the Jews should just dismiss and get over it. No, they only need to apologize for their wrongs but the Arabs/Palestinians have done no wrong, they are the only ones who were wronged and only they deserve an apology. That's your idea of a midway POV? Get real!

Thanks for telling me my opinion.

[Reffo]

It's possible that he really is, it's just not probable. No one I've talked to recognises him. Of course, this proves nothing. But hiding his name makes me suspect that what he is tying to do is to hide his origins, which, if revealed, might make his story a bit less popular. The favored theory is that he is an ex-Phalangist from Lebanon.

He hides his name? Don't you read my posts? How disappointing!

Walid Shoebat, 42, hails from Beit Sahour, outside of Bethlehem. He is the son of a Palestinian Muslim father and an American Christian mother. His great-grandfather on his mother's side was the mayor of Eureka in Humboldt County, while his grandfather on his father's side was friendly with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseni, who allied himself with Adolf Hitler.

Here is a link to a BBC article about him, I think you may agree with me that they are not exactly Zionists and I don't think they would let themselves be fooled by Zionist propaganda:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3430077.stm

I just thought that Irshad Manji was a bit of a stretch to introduce to the discussion. I'm sue we could find someone from Iceland or South America with a similiar opinion. What would be the relevance?

Yes but she was born and raised as a Muslim and she has a valuable insight about how, many Muslims, think of Jews, Muslims, Arabs and the Israel/Palestine conflict. I am sorry to hear that you find her views uninteresting but I don't share your disinterest. I hope you don't mind?

I didn't realise that you wanted my personal views on "mistakes", I thought that we were discussing the general range of views

Well, you go on and on about my bias and ignorance so I was just interested to hear your "broad minded non partisan opinion".

[Reffo]

Your point is little more than there should be controversy for the sake of controversy.
It's a little odd that your such an advocate of it for the Palestinains when you're clearly less than happy about the Israeli version, referring to them as "extremists" and "apologists".

But then it's not about making people happy or trying to satisfy some strained notion of balance, but about acknowledging reality as best as possible.

No, Sumud, that's not it. I have already explained my motives. All I can suggest is that you re-read what I said.

What about your obsession of reality that:

• Palestinians are the ONLY wronged victims
• Palestinians/Arabs did not start any wars, not even in 1947/48
• Egypt and Syria were not the ones who were responsible for the 1967 war
• It is wrong for Israel to retaliate against indiscriminate terrorism against it's civilians.
• Even though the Arabs/Palestinians openly and publicly threatened to drive the Jews into the sea (in other words: Commit Genocide), they did not mean this and it's just Jewish paranoia.

Funny, I don't recall saying any of that.

Well, you certainly said some of it and I had a strong impression that you intimated th rest. However, by all means, if I am wrong then I will apologise if you just tell me if you disagree with any or all of the above items.

In your opinion, the terrorism, the demonization, the threats and the actual wars are just minor events in history that the Jews should just dismiss and get over it. No, they only need to apologize for their wrongs but the Arabs/Palestinians have done no wrong, they are the only ones who were wronged and only they deserve an apology. That's your idea of a midway POV? Get real!

Thanks for telling me my opinion.

Again, please feel free to tell me if I got any of the above wrong.