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Thread: Typical! Spain with its Toledo, Prague with its Jewish quarter

  1. #1
    Toga
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    Typical! Spain with its Toledo, Prague with its Jewish quarter

    Vienna with its monument on Judenplatz, etc...etc. and now Poland!

    They murder the Jews, than they build museums and monuments in memory of the dead Jews.....How much would they charge to visit the Jewish museum in Warsaw?
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    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/46e25b08-6d...00e2511c8.html
    Poland moves to embrace its Jewish past
    By Jan Cienski
    Published: January 24 2005 02:00 | Last updated: January 24 2005 02:00

    When Elyssa Greenbaum flew to Poland last April she got a shock when she landed in Warsaw and saw green grass.

    "It was a place where millions of people had been slaughtered. I always had images of it in black and white. I didn't expect to see grass, and shopping malls, and billboards, and people holding hands," says the Toronto university student.

    Miss Greenbaum and thousands of other Jewish students arrive in Poland each year for brief pilgrimages to Auschwitz and other sites associated with the Holocaust. Like her, most arrive with a negative view of Poland and are interested only in seeing the places where the Nazis slaught-ered millions of Jews during the second world war.

    After four or five days in the country, many tourists leave for Israel, where Jewish rebirth contrasts starkly with grim tours in Poland.

    In an attempt to break down the stereotype of Poland and its anti-Semitism, the government, alongside the tiny remnant community of Polish Jews, is planning to build a $63m (€48m, £34m) museum of the history of Polish Jews in Warsaw. The museum, which has been raising funds from around the world, is scheduled to open by 2008. The government and the city of Warsaw will announce the size of their grants tomorrow.

    "Our goal is to return to the light of memory the thousand-year history of Jews in Poland which has almost been forgotten," says Ewa Junczyk-Ziomecka, the museum's director for development. "The museum will show that not only were people physically killed but their culture was killed and even their memory was destroyed."

    The museum is part of a wider trend in Poland of nostalgia towards the Jewish presence, coupled with a decline in anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic incidents.

    Nearby Krakow is now home to one of the most vibrant festivals of Jewish culture in the world, and museums are springing up across the country, most of them founded and run by non-Jews, to remember that Jews were once an integral part of Poland.

    The Warsaw museum will explain the 1,000-year presence of Jews in Poland, both to foreigners and to Poles, most of whom have never met a Jew in their lives.

    For centuries Poland's relatively free society made it the home to the largest Jewish community in the world, and took in immigrants who had been expelled from Spain, England, Russia and other European countries.

    Feliks Tych, head of the Warsaw-based Institute of Jewish History, argues that critics have too harshly judged the role of Poles during the second world war. In Warsaw, 30,000 Jews were hidden by Poles during the war (only 11,000 survived), implying that some 100,000 Poles risked execution to help hide them.

    However, most of the 300,000 Polish Jews who survived the war left the country when they were faced with anti-Semitism by Poles who did not want to return Jewish property obtained during the war.

    Before the war, there were 3.5m Polish Jews - or 10 per cent of Poland's population. Now there are about 8,000 Jews in Poland, a country of 39m.

    For many years the concentration camp at Auschwitz was a flashpoint between Poles and Jews. While Poles memorialised the 100,000 Poles murdered there, Jews saw it as the central symbol of the horrors of the Holocaust, a place where 1.1m Jews were killed. The disputes around the camp, which was liberated by Soviet forces 60 years ago this week, have lessened.

    Although, according to opinion polls, about a fifth of Poles still harbour anti-Semitic views Poland has less anti-Semitic violence than France or Germany and anti-Jewish slurs are now almost unknown in politics, Mr Tych and others say. "In Poland, anti-Jewish feelings are based on myth: people who don't like Jews have not been able to confirm [their views] because there are [now] almost no Jews in Poland," says Mr Tych. "On the Jewish side, there is a reluctance to accept any positive changes in Polish views."

  2. #2
    KettleWhistle
    Guest
    I don't know much about the Prage Jewish quater, but I've never met anyone from Czekoslovakia who was anti-Semitic. Poland, however, is whole other story.
    From news article:


    Although, according to opinion polls, about a fifth of Poles still harbour anti-Semitic views Poland has less anti-Semitic violence than France or Germany and anti-Jewish slurs are now almost unknown in politics, Mr Tych and others say. "In Poland, anti-Jewish feelings are based on myth: people who don't like Jews have not been able to confirm [their views] because there are [now] almost no Jews in Poland," says Mr Tych. "On the Jewish side, there is a reluctance to accept any positive changes in Polish views."


    Several Polish Jews that I know tell me that Jews aren't safe in Poland, and if one were to openly wear a Magen David (the "Jewish star") necklace, s/he is likely to be physically attacked. From what I've been told, it sounds worse than Russia, or even Egypt.


  3. #3
    maxio
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle
    I don't know much about the Prage Jewish quater, but I've never met anyone from Czekoslovakia who was anti-Semitic. Poland, however, is whole other story.
    I would like to add something.At first I would like to say that I am pole and I am not as majority of you surely consider - antisemtic.

    In today polish newspaper Gazeta (Biggest newspaper in Poland lead by Adam Michink - polish jew ) is article about Jews in today Poland.It has been written by dr. Jan Hartman (defining as from Jew form Poland) (He works at polish Jagiellonski University)
    This is source :
    - http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/wyborcza/1,34474,2689030.html -
    (unfortunately in Polish but I will translate in to english some parts of this article)

    "większość z nas, Żydów z Polski, nie doświadcza w wolnej Polsce istotnych przykrości z racji swej przynależności narodowej. To też o czymś świadczy. Podobnie jak to, że Polska wolna jest od masowej histerii antyizraelskiej, która dotyka wiele społeczeństw zachodnich"
    "Majority of we, Jews form Poland does not experience in free Poland of important trouble by the reason of national fixture. It shows about something too .
    Just as it touches it, that Poland is free from mass antiisraeli hysteria, who touches many western societies ."

    "(...) Branie ludzi prymitywnych za wzorzec społeczeństwa polskiego jest jednak nonsensem. Mówienie, że Polacy są na ogół antysemitami, ma w sobie tyle samo prawdy, co mówienie, że na ogół nienawidzą swojego państwa i lżą jego władze."
    "(...) However, taking of primitive people is nonsense for pattern of (sample of) polish society . Saying, that in general poles are anti-semites, has truth in as many (as much), that saying, that in general states Poles hate each other and his authority"

    "(...) Jeden głupiec może zrobić sto napisów, które trwają na murze przez lata, a ci, którzy powinni je zamalować, nie robią tego, bo sądzą, że to i tak nic nie da. Ilu jest takich głupców? Sądząc z mikroskopijnej sprzedaży pisemek antysemickich, pewnie niewielu."
    "(...) One fool can make hundred inscriptions, who will last on wall for years, but it, which (who) should paint it over, they do not make it, because they judge, that it and nothing will give so. How many is such fools? From microscope sale of anti-semitic letter judging, definitely not so much"

    "(...) Żydzi często nie lubią Polaków, bo uważają ich za antysemitów, Polacy zaś nie lubią Żydów, bo uważają, że Żydzi widzą w nich antysemitów lub obojętnych świadków Zagłady. To paranoja."
    "(...) Jews do not like poles often, because they think (consider) them for anti-semites, poles do not like jews, because they think (consider), that jews see Poles as anti-semites , indifferent witness extinction . It is crazy."

    When somebody like me - average citizen of this country (Poland) , hears that majority Poles are anti-semites i think who tells lies about Poles and why. This is commpletly untrue image of Poles and Poland .

    Ps. I apologize for my english but this is not my native language .

    Ps2. How many of you met average Pole or Czech ?

  4. #4
    Leon
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by maxio
    When somebody like me - average citizen of this country (Poland) , hears that majority Poles are anti-semites i think who tells lies about Poles and why. This is commpletly untrue image of Poles and Poland .
    I would very much like to believe you but every time I hear stories of how my friends, relatives and people I know are harrassed and verbelly abused by Poles when they visit places like Aushwitz I increasingly find what you are saying difficult to believe.

  5. #5
    maxio
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon
    I would very much like to believe you but every time I hear stories of how my friends, relatives and people I know are harrassed and verbelly abused by Poles when they visit places like Aushwitz I increasingly find what you are saying difficult to believe.
    Could you explain to me what do u mean as harrassed and verbelly abused?
    What actions ? Examples . I was in Aushwitz many times ,I was there when Jewish trips was there and NEVER seen any harrassment EVER .
    Don't say I heard somewhere . Say I was harrassed verbelly by Poles becouse I admit that I'm Jew . All of can say you that you heard somewhere.
    I was so many times in Aushwitz or Majdanek I saw many times trips from Izrael and NEVER I have seen harrassment .

  6. #6
    maxio
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon
    I would very much like to believe you but every time I hear stories of how my friends, relatives and people I know are harrassed and verbelly abused by Poles when they visit places like Aushwitz I increasingly find what you are saying difficult to believe.
    You know what is the best way to convinced how is for real ?
    Come to Poland , To Cracow to center of jewish culture . This is true what I'm saying . Do you know that when I say to my friends in Poland that Jews think that when they come to Poland they will be threatened , thay usually smile and says it couldn't be true ? Threatened ? Why? - they say .
    You can come to Poland and check for your self .

  7. #7
    mojo
    Guest
    This might actually be a good thing, if it dispels myths, promotes understanding and tolerance etc.. Perhaps a little less cynicism on our part is due. I for one will wait and see what the Poles have in mind. The Polish peoples reaction to a jewish museum should be illuminating don't you think?...moj

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Posted by maxio:


    How many of you met average Pole or Czech ?

    I am from Chicago

    Was born and raised in Minsk.
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Part of my family is from Dzherzhynsk (Koidonov)

  10. #10
    Ariksan
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    I've met some polish folks through my business. They all were very well educated, staunch libertarians and definitely no anti-semites. I would guess that there are big differences in Poland like in many eastern European country between people from rural parts and those from the city. Between educated people and uneducated, between those who were educated by the communist school system and those who were educated by their new, very successful system which has surpassed many school systems of western countries in terms of quality and success.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mil
    Posted by maxio:


    How many of you met average Pole or Czech ?

    I am from Chicago

    Was born and raised in Minsk.
    Hey, so we were almost neighbors! I used to live in Vitebsk
    “This is a reality but I won’t deal with it in terms of recognizing or admitting it.”

    Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader

  12. #12
    Semsem
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    [QUOTE=maxio]I would like to add something.At first I would like to say that I am pole and I am not as majority of you surely consider - antisemtic.<<

    Maxio thanks for posting. The Polish kings invited the Jews to Poland about 1,000 years ago. So let's be fair. That's why so many lived in Poland.

    However it is true that Poland in the 1930's was very antisemitic. They were thinking of expelling the Jews.

    However I don't think it's fair for us to attack the whole new generation. After all it was the Germans and Austrians who slaughtered us; not the Poles.

  13. #13
    Semsem
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates
    Part of my family is from Dzherzhynsk (Koidonov)
    Isn't that where they had the Murals that Yad Yashem kidnapped? Now they are hiding them in storage. Famous Jewish artist painted them.

  14. #14
    Semsem
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by maxio
    You know what is the best way to convinced how is for real ?
    Come to Poland , To Cracow to center of jewish culture . This is true what I'm saying . Do you know that when I say to my friends in Poland that Jews think that when they come to Poland they will be threatened , thay usually smile and says it couldn't be true ? Threatened ? Why? - they say .
    You can come to Poland and check for your self .
    I want to visit Poland. I have to say that Poles I meet in New York are very friendly. They are young though.

  15. #15
    Semsem
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    Anyway I am very happy that Poland will build a museum. And relations between Israel and Poland are good.

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