Dean and Israel

[KettleWhistle]

That's a bunch of bull.

Arnold brough the sense of accountability to Cal government. Before they were spending like crazy on everything and anything, compensating for it by cutting local funding. So now we have little funding for local police and firefighters, and by 2000 many of the emergency rooms closed down. At the same time the Democratic idiots in the state senate had a minute of silence because some character from "The West Wing" TV series was scripted to die.

He endorsed stem cell research, strengthened protections for domestic partners and supported access to public records. Conversely, he campaigned against reforming the penal law, called for setting up a DNA database for felons, and vetoed a bill allowing illegal immigrants to get driver's licenses. But, overall, people bought into his seeming moderation -- fully two-thirds of the state's general public favored his governorship. No California governor in modern times has enjoyed such a broad-based mandate to tinker with the government of the world's fifth-largest economy.

Yes!

• Taken governmental actions that benefit his personal finances, in apparent violation of state law.
• Collected tens of millions of dollars from many of the same "special interests" he had sworn to kick out of town when he was elected.

Such as?

Vetoed bills that would have protected labor, the environment, workplace safety and consumers.

No. He vetoed loaded bills that contained much more than that.

Sought to centralize his power by abolishing citizen-run boards that make important regulatory decisions.

Good.

So what is exactly the problem with our Governator?

[Mediocrates]

Well nothing by me. I don't live there and frankly I don't care. I'm just reporting that aparently, and this is true to history, that all populists are closet fascists and that if we rode into office claiming to be a man of the people, you need to define which people you are talking about. It really makes no difference to me either way if the gov. makes hundreds of millions of dollars directly out of the fact that he can manipulate state government. After all most small town mayors are usually the biggest real estate developer or the local car dealership owner and the fact that they suck money from local economy into their own pocket is really the cost of local politics. But in a larger sense we would hope that the standards of the 5th largest economy in the world are somewhat higher than the open corruption and influence peddling you typically see in some third world country.

[KettleWhistle]

Well nothing by me. I don't live there and frankly I don't care. I'm just reporting that aparently, and this is true to history, that all populists are closet fascists and that if we rode into office claiming to be a man of the people, you need to define which people you are talking about.

Well, in case of our Democrats, the people they are talking about are the bums that live in downtown San Francisco, and for some also in the "cardboard district" in the downtown L.A. But the 5th largest economy in the world is more than just downtowns of two of its largests cities. Most, but certainly not all, of the political actions undertaken by our governator helped people who live outside of the worst parts of these two downtowns.

But in a larger sense we would hope that the standards of the 5th largest economy in the world are somewhat higher than the open corruption and influence peddling you typically see in some third world country.

I don't know about any corruption in our current government, but our previous governor, Gray Davis, was as corrupt as corrupt gets. And that was no secret to anyone. His energy regulatory committee's incompetence got us into energy mess. He bough thousands more copies of Oracle software for the state, than the number of employees the state had at the time--all of that after a donation by Oracle. He increased taxes and unnecessary regulations, and most of the money was wasted or ended up in donor's pockets. So I'm not disappointed in our current governor. He's done a pretty good job,considering all the problems that our state has had from 8 years of Gray-Davis corruption.

[I am David]

You'd love me to show you where you said what? That 50% of Kerry voters are idiots? NEWS FLASH: I was taking your EXACT sarcastic quote about Bush voters and turned it around to Kerry voters. If you have a problem with my quote then you must have an equal problem with what you said but somehow I doubt it.

I'd love for you to show me where I ever said that. I don't believe people on either "side" are right or wrong. Smart or idiotic. But I can certainly sense quite a condescending tone from our blatantly liberal entertainment industry which happens to think that people in cities know what is better for the US than the rest of the people in states "you fly over". I'm happy that I have had the opportunity to associate with liberals and conservatives throughout the last couple years and it is pretty obvious that there are many differneces of opinions.

Just look at Jews, about 65% voted demonocrats and 35% voted for republotards. To me, this says that people have a wide range of opinions and beliefs and in most cases, one or the other party can't be pro-everything they believe in. As I've pointed out before, I agree and disagree with both parties and for that reason I am no memeber of either. Just look at this forum, where I agree with Kettlewhistle and Mediocrates about Israeli issues alomst 100% of the time, but when it came to our elections, I side mainly with Kettlewhistle.

The point is, stereotyping and generalizations are very common to see, even from my favorite poster, Medio. I personally think he is the best writer here and I trust his opinions greatly. But to see him paint everyone that voted for Dubya (even other ardent Zionists) as idiots, misinformed, brainwashed, ignorant fools that support abortion doctor killers and bibles in our classrooms, is disheartening. It's great to be opinionated, but you loose some of the righteousness when you look at the world as so black and white. It appears to me there are no easy choices, but serious ones that people need to make, and occasionally you have to make some compromises here and there to carry out what you think is positive for our country.

Basically, this is devisive and forces us to battle each other rather than our enemies. It's counterproductive and exactly what pur enemies want.

[minusthejihad]

You'd love me to show you where you said what? That 50% of Kerry voters are idiots? NEWS FLASH: I was taking your EXACT sarcastic quote about Bush voters and turned it around to Kerry voters. If you have a problem with my quote then you must have an equal problem with what you said but somehow I doubt it.

Don't be such a child. I knew exactly what you were doing, genius. The point I was making was that I never said that either group of voters were idiots. I asked if you thought they were. You didn't answer, you just flipped the question, to what I answered - no, I don't think they are idiots.

Does that make sense now? Good. Now go play.

[I am David]

Don't be such a child. I knew exactly what you were doing, genius. The point I was making was that I never said that either group of voters were idiots. I asked if you thought they were. You didn't answer, you just flipped the question, to what I answered - no, I don't think they are idiots.

Does that make sense now? Good. Now go play.

"You knew what I was doing"? Why then didn't you respond to my entire post instead of to just 1 line by extrapolating imaginary meaning out of it? You act as if I was accusing you of seing things in black and white (AKA dems are dumb.), when in reality I was merely deflecting an accusatory comment from you myself. Put it this way: I was doing nothing that you weren't doing with that line. In any case you should respond to someones entire argument rather than to just one line which by itself is not very important.

[minusthejihad]

"You knew what I was doing"? Why then didn't you respond to my entire post instead of to just 1 line by extrapolating imaginary meaning out of it? You act as if I was accusing you of seing things in black and white (AKA dems are dumb.), when in reality I was merely deflecting an accusatory comment from you myself. Put it this way: I was doing nothing that you weren't doing with that line. In any case you should respond to someones entire argument rather than to just one line which by itself is not very important.

Ok, I couldn't really follow the middle there, but I agree, let's talk about your argument. I went back and tried to see how I missed the point, but couldn't really find your point.

Is Bush a bad leader? Maybe. Probably, but in some things I think he has made good decisions or spoken the right way. I think it's too early to tell in most cases as we need to see the long term effects.

Is Karl Rove a masterful marketer? I think its pretty obvious. Find me another candidate who could be more laughable, well, actually, it seems that most of our presedential hopefuls leave the door open: Forbes who never blinked, Mondale who walked into doors, Simon with the bowtie, Dukakis in the Slaughterhouse-Five re-enactment, Clinton - well Clinton was a pimp, I think HE inspired hip hop gangstas.

But back to the main point of the thread:

I have a pretty good memory and I remember specifically that Dean was about to be the only candidate (excluding the Arabist Ralph Nader) who explicitily talked about stopping aid to Israel. If you could go that far left of an anti-semite like Sharpton and Hyme-town Jackson, I get worried. Lucky Lieberman (the only person in touch with reality and whom I would have voted for in retrospect) called him out on it and ended that idiotism right there.

I don't care how many other quotes you can dig up on him, politicians say anything you want them too, but the fact that he broke that taboo will forever be etched in my mind.

[I am David]

My point was that Bush is a horrible leader and only Karl Rove's mastery of politics re-elected him. Thanks for agreeing.

-----------

When did Dean say that. Dean DID say that he would NOT cut aid to Israel from what I can find on numerous pages on Google.

[Mediocrates]

Then again the fundies were so rabid that they destroyed McCain's bid in 2000 which speaks volumes doesn't it? Maybe they were better organized but you really have to step back and examine their visceral hatred of McCain almost on par with their Emmanuel Goldsteininization of the Left. McCain is only slightly to the left of Barry Goldwater, maybe, which puts him further to the right than most Americans yet even that wasn't enough for the RNP's leadership. They didn't want right wing, they wanted 19th Century right wing. It's only compared to that that the Dems start looking a little strange because honestly, 90% of what comes out of the admins mouth would be laughed off the stage 25 years ago as the paranoid ravings of the John Birch Society. Imagine Sterling Hayden as General Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove muttering about precious body fluids.

[Illuminatus]

Nathan Guttman over at Ha'aretz.com had this observation.

[.. WASHINGTON - The recent statements about Israel by leading Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean were the last thing the Democratic Party needed. The Israel issue sparked off a public confrontation among the candidates, with Democratic congressmen joining the fray.

Meanwhile, the Republicans are thrilled by the crack in their rival party's united front regarding Israel. They are also heartened by the surveys indicating the growing tendency of American Jews to vote for the Republican Party.

How did the Israel issue rise to the fore of the Democratic primaries debate? It all began with a statement by front-runner Howard Dean, a former Vermont governor, at an election event at Santa Fe last week. He said "it is not our place to take sides" in the Middle East conflict. A few days later he told the Washington Post "the United States needs an evenhanded approach to the conflict."

Senator Joseph Lieberman, also a Democratic candidate, responded sharply: "If this is a well-thought-out position, it's a mistake and a major break from a half a century of American foreign policy." Lieberman said Dean either understands nothing about foreign policy, or wants to damage the special relations between the U.S. and Israel since the state's establishment. ..]

http://middleeastinfo.org/article3323.html

yep, I have to agree with Sen. Lieberman on this one.
.
.
more
[..Jewish organizations protested Dean's comments, which indicate he wants to change the American pro-Israeli policy to reflect a balanced approach to both sides. A letter is being circulated in Dean's party denouncing his statements and position, and even Democratic minority leader Nancy Pelosi and her deputy Steny Hoyer have criticized his position. ..]

Nancy Pelosi?

and then there was Michelle Goldberg over at Salon:

"Howard Dean's Israel problem"
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...3/dean_israel/

-- The Facts:

1. The Washington Post reported on September 8, 2003 that Dean told supporters at a New Mexico campaign rally that "it's not our place to take sides" in the conflict between Israel and Palestine. He then said to a reporter: "...if we are going to bargain by being in the middle of the negotiations then we are going to have to take an even-handed role."

2. On September 9, during an appearance on Wolf Blitzer's CNN show, Dean said: "I think no one likes to see violence of any kind. That's why the United States is involved in this. I will say, however, that there is a war going on in the Middle East, and members of Hamas are soldiers in that war, and, therefore, it seems to me, that they are going to be casualties if they are going to make war."

Hows nice of Dean to use of the word "soldiers" to describe Islamo-terrorists.
You don't negotiate/understand/empathize/or whatever with terrorists: you kill them.

I quess Ariel Natan Pasko explains much better than I could ever on why Dean/Kerry is/was "out of step with the rest of America they are in regard to U.S. policy vis-á-vis the Israeli-Palestinian issue. "

http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/3240.htm

best regards

[Mediocrates]

In the mean time the guys who actually are in power, the actual winners and poor winners at that, are the one's saying "Israel must be prepared to make dramatic concessions", "Israel muts dismantle the settlements", is giving 420 million dollars to the PLO, pressured Sharon to release 900 terrorists, blocked the legitimate trade between Israel and China, has been leaning on the FBI to pursue a witchunt against AIPAC.

So do me a favor and stop whining about being a sore winner, pull your heads out their crotches, sit down, shut up or get out of the way. Because honestly, you are as big a danger to Israel as Syria is. You are the problem.

[Illuminatus]

I think he's the right choice to lead the Democratic Party. May he stay and live long for the next two generations.

Poll: 100% Of Republicans Approve Choice Of Dean

[..In a strong show of support for former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, 100% of likely Republican voters approve of Dr. Dean’s selection as Democratic Party chairman, a new survey indicates.

The poll, conducted by the University of Minnesota’s Opinion Research Institute, reveals that Republicans are approximately twenty times as excited about Dr. Dean’s selection as Democrats are.

According to the survey, 97% of all Republicans describe themselves as “ecstatic” about the former Vermont Governor chairing the Democratic National Committee, while 99% describe themselves as “giddy beyond belief.”

When asked how they intend to celebrate Dr. Dean’s appointment to the DNC chair, Republicans were evenly divided, with 48% saying they would “jump for joy” while 47% said they would “dance a jig.” ..]

http://borowitzreport.com/archive_rp...rec=1068&srch=

Me? I danced a jig : )

[Mediocrates]

Which is pretty damn silly. After all I personally welcome the reign of Bush and the inevitably apocalyptic train wreck it presages. It's really the only way you ideologues will ever realize what a horrendous mistake you made.


But seeing how most of you truly and honestly believe it's time to eliminate the two party system altogether, it's debateable whether you will ever seen the disaster coming. Maybe you can get the real story from "Jeff Gannon".

[Mediocrates]

SOCIAL SECURITY FOR ARAB TERRORISTS

LETTER FROM RUTH MATAR (WOMEN IN GREEN) JERUSALEM

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 2005



Dear Friends,

There are some recent developments in the United States, which I would never have dreamed of, even in my worst nightmares. I am aware (being an avid Fox News Channel watcher) that the U.S. Social Security system faces some severe financial problems, and that there are various proposals to improve it on the part of President Bush's government. These are legitimate concerns and various plans have been advanced to improve the Social Security system, as well as the Health Insurance system.

In spite of the financial problems in assisting the aging part of the American populace, and those who cannot afford adequate health insurance, President George W. Bush wants to make an extraordinary gift of $390 million to Abu Mazen and his terrorist regime.

I am going to quote extensively from an article by Yoram Ettinger, former Israeli Minister for Congressional Affairs (with the rank of Ambassador), entitled: "$390 Million to Abu Mazen Defies U.S. Global Policy."

1. PRESIDENT BUSH'S MEMORABLE SEPT. 20, 2001 SPEECH VS. $390 MILLION TO ABU MAZEN

... "Either you are with us, or your are with the terrorists...Any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the US as a hostile regime...WE WILL STARVE TERRORISTS OF FUNDING...[Where does that leave Abu Mazen, Card #2 of the Palestinian Terror Authority, the largest terror base in the world?! With $390 Million US foreign aid???]

2. U.S. POLICY ON IRAQ & AFGHANISTAN VS. $390 MILLION TO ABU MAZEN.

The prerequisite for free election and for US assistance to Iraq and to Afghanistan, was the thorough eradication of - rather than accommodation with - rogue regimes. US policy would not tolerate top Ba'th or Taliban leaders running for office, let alone heading a new regime. The US would not tolerate an Iraqi or Afghani candidates campaigning for office on the shoulders of a most wanted notorious terrorist, as did Abu Mazen on the shoulders of Zakaria Zubeidi, the leading terrorist in Jenin. Abu Mazen did not emerge, on election day, from exile in Europe or from his hiding cave in the Judean Desert. Abu Mazen emerged from Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah, running as Arafat's most intimate confidant during the last 50 years and Arafat's loyal #2 since 1993. Abu Mazen had occasionally disagreed with Arafat tactically, but always concurred strategically. Contrary to US policy in Iraq and Afghanistan, the US has re-entrenched, rather than uproot, the rogue old regime, thus rewarding Palestinian terrorism and adrenalizing regional anti-US terrorism.

3. U.S. FARM SUBSIDIES VS. $390 MILLION TO ABU MAZEN.

The US would not extend grants/loans to farmers, who have misused previous subsidies in gambling and other non-farming mischief. Why would the US extend a $390 Million grant to the PA, which has misused some $1.5 Billion since 1994, promoting anti-US and anti-Jewish hate-education, terrorism (including the murder of 52 US citizens), corruption and repression, rather than moderation, peaceful-coexistence and counter-terrorism?

4. U.S. POLICY ON SYRIA VS. $390 MILLION TO ABU MAZEN.

President Bush ("State of the Union", Feb. 2, 2005) and Secretary of State Rice (Israel, Feb. 7, 2005) have condemned Syria for harboring terrorists, which has denied Damascus US foreign aid and cooperation. Where does that leave Abu Mazen, who has harbored Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists, while heading the political infrastructure of PA ("security organizations") terrorism?! Abu Mazen met - in December 2004 in Damascus - the leaders of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the PDFLP, and will meet shortly with other Islamic terrorists in Teheran. Both meetings (at terrorist capitals) aim at coordination and co-existence with terrorists, in defiance of the morally-just and strategically-right US war on global terrorism.

5. PAST U.S. CRITICAL BLUNDERS & $390 MILLION TO ABU MAZEN.

Sacrificing the 50 year track record of Abu Mazen - and the lessons of the last eleven years since the signing of Oslo - on the altar of wishful thinking, is consistent with the 1993 White House embrace of the Oslo Process and Nobel Laureate Arafat, with the 1996 crowning of Arafat - by the US Administration - as "a democratically elected President", with honoring Arafat as the most frequent visitor to President Clinton's White House, with the 1988-91 courting of Saddam by the Bush/Baker Administration (until the day of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait!), with the 1978 US Administration support extended to the "elder Iranian religious leader in exile" (Khomeini) in his battle against "the dictator in Teheran" (the Shah), etc.

* * *

President Bush said in his State of the Union Address. "Secretary of State Rice will depart on a trip that will take her to Israel and the West Bank for meetings with Prime Minister Sharon and President Abbas. She will discuss with them how we and our friends can help the Palestinian people end terror and build institutions of a peaceful, independent, democratic state. To promote this democracy we will ask Congress for $350 million to support Palestinian political, economic and security reforms. The goal of two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace, is within reach - and America will help them achieve that goal."

The Bush administration subsequently suggested that Congress consent to send an additional $41 million immediately for an immediate impact in support of democratic transition. The entire gift to Abu Mazen now amounts to $391 million dollars.

And now for what Bill O'Reilly of the American Fox News Channel would surely call the most ridiculous item of the day.

Condoleezza Rice, in her new position as successor to Colin Powell, demands that part of that money go directly to "retired" terrorists. She proposed a $100 dollar monthly allowance to "retired" terrorists, who agree to lay down their arms and retire, or find another profession. She proposed that this pension fund must benefit at least 1,000 terrorists. The money would come out of President Bush's offer to Abu Mazen of $390 million dollars.

However, Abu Mazen has made the terrorists a better offer. About 350 gunmen, all on Israel's list of wanted terrorists, have been recruited to "join the [PA] security forces." This move is designed to protect them against Israeli assassination attempts. According to the Jerusalem Post, these terrorists are all members "of the armed wings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad - Izzaddin Kassam and al-Kuds brigades. The two groups are responsible for most of the suicide bombings and rocket attacks against Israeli targets over the past four years."

"A PA 'security' official said, 'Hamas and Islamic jihad leaders who met with Abbas last week in Gaza City demanded that their followers be recruited as policemen as a condition for accepting a temporary truce with Israel.'"

Maybe the American money could be put into a "Social Security" Fund for the time when these particular Arab terrorists are too old and feeble to kill Jews?

Do not believe for even one minute that Israel's Prime Minister Sharon will not be the recipient of this largesse of American tax payers' dollars, as well. President Bush has promised to help Sharon financially with his unilateral Disengagement Plan (actually, Deportation of Jews by Jews Plan).

Thus, President Bush is with one hand promoting a make-believe democracy for Abu Mazen's terrorist regime, and with the other hand he is collaborating with Israel's Prime Minister Sharon in suppressing Israel's democracy.

Dear Friends, it is absolutely essential that you contact your Congressman and your Senators. and ask them to defeat this $390 million dollar appropriation for a terrorist regime. It is in your power to avert this evil plan, since Congress has to approve any such appropriation.

You can see it is important that the giant rally, which is being planned for the Washington DC Mall, in May 2005, is becoming more and more important. We, Bible-believing Jews and Christians, must impress on the U.S. Government that we will not allow Israel to become the first "democracy" to be defeated by Islamic terrorists.

With Blessings and Love for Israel,

Ruth Matar

P.S. Don't forget to send us your name and street address, so that we can add you to our rapidly growing list of people who are anxious to save G-d's Promised Land.

[Mediocrates]

=============================================

Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green)

POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel

Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380

mailto:michael@womeningreen.org

http://www.womeningreen.org

To make a contribution via our secure server or through Paypal, go to: https://host5.apollohosting.com/womeningreen/funds/donation/donation.html

To subscribe to the Women in Green list,

please send a blank email message to:

list4-subscribe@womeningreen.org

To unsubscribe from the Women in Green list,

please send a blank email message to:

list4-unsubscribe@womeningreen.org