Difficulties of collaborative science

[Luke90]

Another interesting article I found in New Scientist:
Interview: Breaking the barriers
(I wasn't sure whether this was the right area of the forum or not. If any mods feel it should be moved, go for it.)

[minusthejihad]

From the link:

Do you talk about politics with Karen?

I tend to be very open about politics with all Israelis I meet. I cannot lose a chance to make a statement about what we are going through. I cannot rationalise what is going on. Take, for example, the separation wall that Israel is building around the West Bank. I cannot see the sense in building walls. I cannot imagine what kind of brain came up with that solution.

Probably the brain that was saved when one of your cousins couldn't make it over the wall. Like usual, the intellectual talks of theories and ideologies and misses the point.

This feeling of entitlement needs to stop. I hope the Palestinians know that when they have their Jew-free state, it's going to be even harder to get into Israel. "We want a state! But we also want to be able to take advantage of your state whenever we want too! Wahh!"

[Reffo]

Quote From New Scientist: Moien Kanaan (Palestinian Professor)
"Take, for example, the separation wall that Israel is building around the West Bank. I cannot see the sense in building walls. I cannot imagine what kind of brain came up with that solution"

I would be a lot more sympathetic to such a statement if he complained about the suffering caused by war. As it is, the only reaction that I have to this statement is:

I cannot understand people who cannot understand the need for the Israelis to build a wall. What are their alternatives?

• Allow themselves to be blown up by suicide bombers ?
• Give in to Palestinian demands, unconditionally, without getting adequate guarantees for proper peace, resulting in the gradual destruction of Israel ?
• Don't waste time, give the Pals what they want immediately ! Commit national suicide ?

It really is disappointing to hear such a statement from an apparently highly educated Palestinian who professes to be a liberal.

[Luke90]

we also want to be able to take advantage of your state whenever we want too!

This example isn't about taking advantage of Israel. It's a collaborative effort which is mutually beneficial for both parties.

[Luke90]

an apparently highly educated Palestinian who professes to be a liberal.

Where does he profess to be a liberal?

[minusthejihad]

This example isn't about taking advantage of Israel. It's a collaborative effort which is mutually beneficial for both parties.

Do you think that Palestinians are entitled to:

A> Occupation, but are allowed to enter Israel
B> Their Own State, but with no entry into Israel

You see, this professor feels they deserve all of the above. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. You get one or the other. I can not be both an American citizen and enter another country any time I want for work, or to visit a friend in a lab.

This and his comment about the need for the wall, make me think this person is either completely blind, biased, or stupid.

[Mediocrates]

The Palestinian scientist seems to be objecting to some obstacles to his science that arise out of the conflict itself. I can imagine that a Bosnian scientist in 1997 would have some of the same objections - that is, they arise out of the fact that their own infrastructure is badly crumbled after decades of neglect. If there were no intifada would the need to have to do research in Israel be any different? Probably not. And I can turn that around and show you innumerable Israeli scientists who's research is hampered because broad minded academics in the west simply decided that personal politics was more important than basic research and as a result bar them from working with western academics.

[Reffo]

Where does he profess to be a liberal?

I suppose it depends what is your definition of what is meant by "liberal". What I meant by it was that here is someone who is seemingly broadminded to recognise the humanity of the "other side" and work with some of them. He said:

"But the partnership is also an opportunity to express our conviction that scientists on both sides of the political divide could work together"

On the other side though, I was disappointed with him because while he was able to highlight the hardships that his people face, he had no empathy towards the problems of "other side". He seemed to be genuinely mystified about the reasons for the security fence. You might ask me why am I disappointed by this ? My answer is that some Israeli liberals seem to display far greater empathy towards the suffering of the Palestinians. Some may say that they are "bending over backwards" to justify Palestinian actions.

[Zlatorog]

The Palestinian scientist seems to be objecting to some obstacles to his science that arise out of the conflict itself. I can imagine that a Bosnian scientist in 1997 would have some of the same objections - that is, they arise out of the fact that their own infrastructure is badly crumbled after decades of neglect. If there were no intifada would the need to have to do research in Israel be any different? Probably not. And I can turn that around and show you innumerable Israeli scientists who's research is hampered because broad minded academics in the west simply decided that personal politics was more important than basic research and as a result bar them from working with western academics.

If you can, that would surely be an interesting read. There was no real neglect of the scientific infrastructure in Bosnia, it's just that the three other, larger cities of the Kingdom were located in a less Olympics-appropriate environment.

If we look just at some medical institutions

During the aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina and the siege of Sarajevo, years 1992-1996, Clinical Center was shelled daily, regardless of hospital markings and knowledge that it was health institution. Clinic for Obstetrics and Gynaecology and Pediatric Clinic were totally destroyed by shelling. Institute for Physiatrics in Iliidza was destroyed, too. Institute for Vascular Diseases and Psychiatric hospital were devastated during retreat of aggressor from Jagomir suburb. All Clinics in Kosevo sustained enormous damages bitted by more than 350 shells.

Total damages are estimated on 34.2% of capacities before the war, which count 1130 beds.

During the shellings of Clinical Center, 5 patients were killed, 19 wounded. 51 employee of Clinical Center were killed during the siege of Sarajevo.

During the aggression staff and patients were transferred from destroyed departments into the operational ones and continued they activities but in a reduced and rationalized capacities.

In the period from 1992-1995, 2597 employees left the Clinical Center. 2271 employees stayed and worked through the war and with 772 newly employed.

_______


For the scientists, intellectuals, who left like that there were never any limits who to work with, the real unemployment came later, when the kids who graduated in the country decided to stay.

[Luke90]

This and his comment about the need for the wall, make me think this person is either completely blind, biased, or stupid.

He's bound to be biased.

some Israeli liberals seem to display far greater empathy towards the suffering of the Palestinians.

Israel is probably a far less radicalised society.

I can turn that around and show you innumerable Israeli scientists who's research is hampered because broad minded academics in the west simply decided that personal politics was more important than basic research and as a result bar them from working with western academics.

And I think that's wrong too.

I can not be both an American citizen and enter another country any time I want for work, or to visit a friend in a lab.

I would have thought if you wanted to do research with someone from a different country like Canada you'd be able to do it with relatively little hassle.

[KettleWhistle]

So that person blames Israel for defending itself. What else new?

[minusthejihad]

I would have thought if you wanted to do research with someone from a different country like Canada you'd be able to do it with relatively little hassle.

Sure, thats because there aren't Canadians blowing themselves up outside discos here like it happened yet again in Israel today. Sure, they don't need barriers! /sarcasm

[KettleWhistle]

Not to mention that our civilians would be justified in blowing themselves up in Canada, since we have a maritime border dispute with them. And of course, that would all be the Canadians' fault too.

[Reffo]

Israel is probably a far less radicalised society.

Israel has it's radicals too. But I think there is more to this than just that. What this article illustrates is the difference between the value systems of the two societies. What frustrates me most is that there seems to be very few voices of dissent and debate in Palestinian society, it's as if they are acting collectively to perpetrate this state of hate and war. I suppose in all fairness to potential Palestinian liberals, if they dare to be too moderate, in public, they could (and probably would) be labelled as collaborators and they would be brutally executed. I understand that even Abass (who is a so called moderate leader) has recently approved the execution of so called collaborators.

The net result is that, unlike the Israeli moderates, even the moderate Palestinians sound like hard liners.

[minusthejihad]

Don't worry, the moral relativists have a disconnect when it comes to this.

People like Luke can't tell the difference.