I [heart] King Abdullah

Mira · 03-18-2005, 08:01 AM

I have no doubt that this man wants peace!

Mar. 18, 2005 14:56 | Updated Mar. 18, 2005 15:37
Jordan's king to put forward new peace strategy
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

King Abdullah II of Jordan has put forward a new peace strategy that Arab diplomats said Friday would call for Mideast nations to normalize relations with Israel even before the Jewish state gives up land seized in the 1967 Six Day War.

The proposal, made for an Arab League summit that starts Monday, appeared to have little support among Arab nations. But it was highly unusual move even to put such a plan before an Arab forum.

The Jordanian proposal includes an call for "an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict" and the establishment of normal relations "in return for a lasting and comprehensive settlement," according to an Arab diplomat who read the text to The Associated Press.

It is vaguely worded but - unlike a Saudi peace initiative adopted at the 2002 Arab summit held in Beirut - it omits any reference to UN resolutions and Arab demands calling for Israel to withdraw to pre-1967 borders and the right of return of refugees.

The omission suggests the king, whose country has a peace deal with Israel, wants the Arabs to accept geographical changes Israel has made in the territories since 1967.

That would mark a major shift in Arab strategy, which has called for a full normalization of relations with Israel only after a complete peace, with the return of all Arab territories under Israeli occupation.

Arab League officials said the proposal, which would revise the 2002 Saudi initiative, had little support. Syria has always staunchly opposed any normalization.

Palestinian delegates to the summit's preparatory discussions said the Jordanian proposal "was not acceptable" because it ignores the "fundamental basis for a just and comprehensive settlement."
"This is like giving a thief more than he had already stolen," one senior Palestinian official told the AP.

Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa ruled out any change to the Saudi-proposed initiative, which he described as "the Arab term of reference" for peace with Israel.

"What is on the summit agenda is to revive the Arab peace initiative on the international level to represent the joint Arab position, especially with regard to Israel's withdrawal to the 1967 borders," he told reporters Thursday. "It is not expected to come down from this ceiling."

In Kuwait, Foreign Ministry undersecretary Khaled al-Jarrallah said "normalization will only happen after a fair and comprehensive peace according to the (Saudi-proposed) Arab initiative and international legitimacy."

The Saudi plan offers a peace with all Arab nations conditional on the return of all land Israel seized from the Arabs in the six-day war of 1967, including East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Syria's Golan Heights, in line with UN resolutions 242 and 338. It also calls for the creation of a Palestinian state and a solution to the Palestinian refugee issue.

The Algiers summit, which begins Monday, comes at a particularly crucial time in the region, with Iraq trying to put together a government amid continuing violence, the bid to restart the Middle East peace process and the crisis in Lebanon. Another sensitive issue, reforming the Arab League itself, also is on the table.

Algerian authorities are on high alert ahead of the Arab League summit, deploying some 15,000 Algerian security forces in and around the capital ahead of the arrival of 20 Arab heads of state and some 3,000 officials.

Jordanian officials have refused to comment or give details on the proposal by Abdullah, who met this week in Washington with US President George W. Bush.

cont-
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1111116048516

KettleWhistle · 03-18-2005, 10:52 AM

The Jordanians have always been the only party in the Middle East truly interested in peace. And they stand to gain much from it as well, from access to the port of Haifa, which they wanted since 50's, to general cooperation.

**Mediocrates** · 03-18-2005, 11:26 AM

http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...&postcount=625

**MGB8** · 03-18-2005, 11:59 AM

Obviously the Arabs are not going to adapt the Jordanian plan. But, if it pushes the Arabs even a little bit off the Saudi plan, Israel MUST respond with a counter offer. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is just one small battlefield in the larger Arab-Israeli, Islamo-Israeli conflict.

Then again, maybe Israel shouldn't respond with a counter offer, and just focus on the smaller issue.

After all, once Israel has reached a resolution with the Pal Arabs, assuming they ever will be willing to reach such a resolution, then the Arab nations really have little to justify their state of war with Israel and being in violation of the UN charter.

As for the Hashemite kings...if only they had remaind in Medina, and not lost out to the house of Saud, then chances are that this 60+ year war may well have been avoided, and all the other things that have been wrought alongside it maybe made less so.

Iraqi_shia · 03-18-2005, 01:41 PM

Hello all..

It is the first time I post here..

I want to start my message by telling you that I love Israel. I am an iraqi shia and (like every iraqi) I grew in a bad environment..

All of TV-Channels, and other multimedia stuff were against Israel. Saddam and all of other Arabic leaders are teaching Arabs how to kill and how to hate..

As a child I had one enemy, then two then three... then thirty three... It was time to think...

Why are we fighting against the whole world??
Why do we hate Israel??
What did Israel make for us iraqis??
Arabs hurt us --- arabic people were stealing our oil in Iraq while they were having their (peace) with Israel...

Those dictators dont have any definition for peace... they dont understand democracy...

They are just trying to make empty promisses..
Please dont support them..
They just act like they want peace..
they make and export terrorism to Israel.. and Iraq..

It is very sad to see an ellected president... sitting with a dictator and a killer on the same table...

THROW KING ABDULLA AWAY FROM THE STATES AND START SANCTIONS AGAINST JORDAN

THROW THE JORDANIAN EMBASSY AWAY FROM ISRAEL AND WORK TO DEMOCROTIZE JORDAN AND WE WILL SUPPORT U

I LOVE ISRAEL

**MGB8** · 03-18-2005, 08:10 PM

Congratulations on being rid of your tyrant, and our hearts go out to those who are suffering from the terrorists who are willing to murder innocent people, women, children, men, for some crazy ideology.

Anyways, of the Dictators in the region, Abdullah is the most benign. As I understand it, Jordan has been moving in the Democratic direction, with parliamentary elections in June 2003 with legitmate opposition parties. Like Mubarak in Egypt, however, Jordan does have a major problem with Wahabi inspired fundamentalists, and its a tough balance.

Nonetheles, all Arab countries eventually need to become democratic and represent their peoples, and all of them RIGHT NOW need to be moving in that direction.

The most dangerous totalitarian regimes in the region are the Sauds and the Mullah's oppressing the Persians. Unfortunately, the Sauds are sitting on so much oil that no nation will want to mess with them, even if they deserve to be deposed, while the Mullah's may soon have nukes.

Leon · 03-19-2005, 02:06 AM

Welcome Iraqi_shia! You are truly a wonderful, brave and sincere individual and I hope to see more of you here.

Iraqi_shia · 03-19-2005, 07:27 AM

Hello all...

I would like to thank u for the kind words....maybe some ppl ask themselves what does an iraqi shia do in israeli forum??

I am here as a victim and I represent 22 millions...
I wish we had a strong leader we ellect who stands infront of the israeli parliment and appoligizes for the ppl of Israel and for the free world for things that dictators' propaganda did towards u..

We have to appologize because we couldn't stop Saddam..
Because we couldn't stop the lies of arabic leaders..
and unfortunately.. Many believed them...

We need a coallition with jewish and israeli free movements because we (in IRAQ) we have tasted the freedom and many of us are ready to fight for it...

Arabic leaders(jordan and Saudi arabia) are giving their best to destroy the new IRAQ ... Saudis want to be the only country which export oil to the free world and jordan gets oil from them to resell it to Israel..

An Iraqi-Israeli Coalliton is very important for both countries..
Israel is fighting against the whole arabic dictators for more than 60 years and they know many things which may help to bring kind of stability in IRAQ and Iraq has enough oil to create an economic stability in the whole world for 20-30 years.. This is enough to rechange the radical fundamental wahabis in Saudi Arabia...

If this happens.. We will not have Bin Ladin... No black money to Pakistan and Jordan will never be able to reproduce a new Zarkawi...and they will not have to change the building of their embassy from baghdad to alfalooja...

I disagree with Mr MGB in one point, because I know and understand those dictators... They will never understand peace untill we force them..

The free world has to be united..
I wish that the states will not leave Iraq untill it becomes a part of the new great middle east with a great partnership with the only free state in that region (Israel)

Jordan shows this limeted democracy as a part of its sick propoganda to get money from the states ...nothing else and i will never ask where are those money going? and which ppl will be supported by the dictator of Jordan??

Dont believe the propaganda and believe in justice and real , pure democracy,.,

we need democracy like Israel...and not less..

Dear Leon

thanks for the kind words and i really feel honored to hear ur kind message

God bless Iraq
God bless ISRAEL
God bless the US
God bless the free world

Ariksan · 03-19-2005, 07:58 AM

Iraqi_Shia is perfectly right.

Like all Arab dictators the Hashemites are very opportunistic when it comes to save their reign. They created the image of Israel as the devil because it helped them to distract their people from their own problems. If it means to cut a deal with the devil to safe them now they will do it. The reason why Jordan had relativly good ties to Israel even when we were offically at war has nothing to do with mutual love - but only because of Jordanian self-intersted. Israel was an insurance against Syria which saw Jordan (and Lebanon and Israel) as part of greater Syria. Similar opportunistic thinking was the reason why Jordan was an ally of Saddam during the first gulf war. Something that many Iraqis can't forgive I suppose.

True democracy in Jordan means that they would officially become a Palestinian state - exactly where the Palestinian state was intented to be in the first place - east of the Jordan river. It would solve a lot of problems in the Israeli-Arab conflict almost instantly.

Abdullah is not part of the solution - the Hashemites are part of the problem.

tandem · 03-19-2005, 08:42 AM

welcome aboard iraqi_shia!

i agree, while jordan may be more progressive than other arab states like saudi arabia, iran, or syria, i believe the limited measures jordan has enacted are all about putting on a show for america to get off their case to democratize.

jordan receives approx. $100 million in american aid every year. that's pale to the $2 billion america gives egypt every year. both countries are the only middle east states to sign a peace treaty with israel. one has to wonder whether the leaders of both countries are being bribed to go against the will of their own people and have diplomatic relations with israel.

since the leaders of these two countries, egypt and jordan, already see themselves as paying the price for the american money - diplomatic ties with israel - they see no urgency to move forward and establish a fully democratic society. this way, for signing a peace treaty with israel and for creating a couple of mediocre and useless democratic reforms in their countries, the leaders of egypt and jordan get millions in the bank plus they get to keep their authoritarian regime in power.

**MGB8** · 03-19-2005, 12:34 PM

I don't know.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that democracy is an inherent right of people. That's one of the reasons I support a two state solution with the Israeli conflict, and really view only the borders as the main issue there.

However, the reality is that the US can't afford to go around taking down every bad regime. Israel really can't afford to do any, its still a tiny country, good enough at keeping itself alive, but it would be exposed if it tried to do anything more. If Israel couldn't succeed in Lebanon, although who really knows what the mission was, it got so jumbled after the PLO leaders were expelled.

Anyway, given practical realities, I think that people need to prioritize. Assad's regime is probably the most vicious and controling. However, he also is the least powerful. He needs to go, but he doesn't represent the terrible threat to the US and West (and the US is certainly self interested) as much as Iran, or two-faced Suadi Arabia, almost as repressive, maybe moreso, than Assad, but much more dangerous internationally with their funding of Wahabiism.

Iraqi-shia, the US war to remove Saddam Hussein was not an act of Charity. It was an act of self-interest. It was NOT for oil - the US has lost more in blood and treasure than it will ever gain in oil or even lowered oil costs. And that's a big problem in any new undertaking, too, in that the political, human and economic costs of the US has been very high, and Americans do not want to go quickly into another war or action, and will only do so for a threat even greater than Saddam, even with the successes there.

What was the reason for removing Saddam? Three reasons:

(1) That the US and others believed that Saddam was a threat, although not as major as Iran or North Korea, to the west. WMDs. We were wrong about this.

(2) That the tyrants had recieved a bad example from the West by being able to flout the UN and others without any consequences, which was emblodening them to more opress their own people, but, frankly, more importatnly to the U.S., to attack, or support the attackers of, the US and other Western Nations.

and

(3) The "neo-con" idea. That the Tyrannies in the Middle East were not just wrong, but THE MAJOR CAUSE of terrrorism, and that only freedom in the mideast, and Iraq is obviously central to the region, with its great history and importance, and only with the Arab people free could they join the community of nations and the terrorists be far less able to recruit oppressed and radicalized peoples.

The US and Israel are just like other nations. The US especially gets more expectations put on it. But it is not all-powerful. It does not have endless resources. It tries to do what it thinks is best most of the time, and sometimes is wrong (ie. deposing the PM of Iran in the 50's), or overreacts (deposing governments in South Americna when they started taking away huge areas of land owned by US companies without compensation) or simply doesn't act (Iraq after 1991). The US will make mistakes. It will sometimes act with self interst in a bad, immoral manner, although, IMO, less than any other nation on Earth in relation to its power.

I believe that the US is focusing on Iran and Syria next. I don't know what the plan is. My fear is that they focus on Syria before Iran, because the Mullahs in Iran who oppress what, 60 million Shia, are much more dangerous to everyone - they are much more likely than Syria to start a Nuclear War in the middle east.

If the regime is changed in Iran and the Persian people regain their freedom, which the United States is partially at blame for there loss of it, Syria is not such a large matter afterwords, and just those changes In My Opinion would force Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan to press ahead in their democratic reforms. If, 20 or 30 years from now, Jordan was a Parliamentary Kingdom along the lines of the UK, would that be such a terrible thing? I don't know if the West has the willingness to sacrifice so much blood and money to do things any faster. The west (not including France) will make sacrifices, and they will be painful, but they will only make so many.

**Reffo** · 03-19-2005, 02:29 PM

Welcome Iraqi_shia it's great to hear voices like yours from the Arab world and I am sure many people in this forum will be happy to discuss the problems of the Middle East with you. I must admit that I can relate to what you said:

All of TV-Channels, and other multimedia stuff were against Israel. Saddam and all of other Arabic leaders are teaching Arabs how to kill and how to hate..

I too experienced the power of state propaganda as a child I lived in an East European Communist country in the fifties. I remember listening on the radio about tirades against the west and the USA and the same propaganda in the school and as you can imagine, we were on our way to being brainwashed. As a child, I used to think that the USA was an evil country. Thank goodness our family managed to get out of there and now I know better. What I now know is that there is no perfect system anywhere, even in the West, but some systems are less imperfect than others and the western democratic system is the best of many imperfect systems.

So all I can say to you is that I wish the best for Iraq and I hope that there are many more people like you there who will help make Iraq a better and more peaceful place. I also hope Iraq will agree to have a formal peace treaty with Israel so that both countries can develop for the benefit of it's people instead of fighting stupid wars that only benefit tyrants like Saddam.

Zlatorog · 03-21-2005, 03:53 AM

Perhaps we're the only country that once had whole civilian charter flights to Iraq totally booked three months in advance... The State Organisation for Tourism issued a map in 1980:

Industry

...is diverse and covers all the Governorates of the country, such as yarns and textilles factories of various types, cement, jute, leathers, food stuff, dates processing, dairies, vegetable oils, soft drinks, alkoholic drinks, cigarettes, drugs, paper, sugar, glassware, agricultural machines, large cars, fertilizers. The blessed 17-30 July revolution emphasised petro chemical and other heavy industries.

Mineral riches

Iraq ranks fifth in the production of oil which the blessed 17-30 July revolution had nationalized on the first of June, 1972.

Overland Routes

... a well paved route,
... a well paved route...

Important remarks to the drivers

5. Most of the roads connecting Baghdad with all other Governorates are newly paved... The remaining roads shall be completed in the near future.

What was it like? The Japanese were the only ones who could freely drive around and I have no idea what they were doing there. Our 28.000 construction workers were basically grounded so when they were bored they tried to grow salad in the desert. Otherwise they managed to build a few airports, wells, roads, school and hospital phonelines and some sort of Saddam city (1210 objects on 34 km2)

mani · 03-22-2005, 11:50 PM

Iran is not an Arab country and iran is terribly ahead of Arabs in terms of technology and development. Persians have always loathed Arabs not wanted to become one . The Mullahs in power in Iran are detested even by iranians . Mullahs believe in the jihad/heaven formula which no educated person with eyes and ears can believe in .

Jordan is interested in peace but its too small a party to consider in Arab world to move the table . US pressure on Arab states should continue for a more resolute shift of opinion . We cannot change minds of Arab ppl regarding Israel`s right to exist but we can definitely exert pressure on Arab governments to shake hands or be changed .Arab dictators can die for their jobs and telling them that if you dont listen 'You r fired !' is the need of the hour and anything is better than being found in a manhole (Saddam Hussein)

Israel cannot fully extended a hand of peace unless its right of existence is completely and honorably accepted by neighbours . You cannot hug a person with a knife in his other hand .

Its to say one is pragmatic about peace when Palestinian media is promoting something opposite . If Abbas is in control he should control the media as well otherwise he is not in control .

The Saudi plan is not pragmatic as well . Israel won that land in a war didnt steal it .

**Mediocrates** · 03-23-2005, 06:10 AM

Only 9 of the 22 countries decided that Jordan's plan was unacceptable. So that's at least microprogress. Who really cares what Djbouti and Yemen think anyway?