We are the Victims

**Womble** · 03-27-2005, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by sharonbn

Quite frankly, There was no reason for Israel to hold on to the occupied territories

There was a very legitimate and perfectly pragmatic reason: you do not return to your enemy land conquered from them when the state of hostility is not yet over. So, until the Jordanian claim for the West Bank persisted (that is, till the late 80-s), there was no reason for Israel to withdraw and every reason to NOT withdraw. As soon as the claim was withdrawn, negotiations began at the Madrid conference.

sharonbn · 03-27-2005, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by Womble

There was a very legitimate and perfectly pragmatic reason: you do not return to your enemy land conquered from them when the state of hostility is not yet over. So, until the Jordanian claim for the West Bank persisted (that is, till the late 80-s), there was no reason for Israel to withdraw and every reason to NOT withdraw. As soon as the claim was withdrawn, negotiations began at the Madrid conference.

...by which time the territories were already riddled with settlments.

Also, there are doubts as to Israeli willingness to start peace negotiations when territories were involved: in 1971, UN envoy Gunar Jaring made several trips to Jer'm and Cairo. He carried a message from the new Egyptian president, Sadat: peace in exchange for the Sinai. Golda Meir's response? "We don't believe the sincerity of the Egyptian proposal."

Some historians claim that the failure of the Jaring mission is what drove Sadat to launch the Kipur war, as he saw no other way to regain the Israeli-occupied Egyptian land.

**Womble** · 03-27-2005, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by sharonbn

...by which time the territories were already riddled with settlments.

...which complicated matters, yes. I consider the settlement policy a mistake, but I guess back then the Israeli government had totally despaired to achieve any kind of agreement with the Arabs- or perhaps wanted to use the settlements as a pressure tool to remind the Arab government that Israel's patience is slowly, but surely running out.

Also, there are doubts as to Israeli willingness to start peace negotiations when territories were involved: in 1971, UN envoy Gunar Jaring made several trips to Jer'm and Cairo. He carried a message from the new Egyptian president, Sadat: peace in exchange for the Sinai. Golda Meir's response? "We don't believe the sincerity of the Egyptian proposal."

Well, she didn't say "we won't give this lands up even for peace", did she? She said "I don't believe in the sincerety of them wanting peace". That's a different thing entirely, and frankly, I wouldn't trust Sadat either back then.

Some historians claim that the failure of the Jaring mission is what drove Sadat to launch the Kipur war, as he saw no other way to regain the Israeli-occupied Egyptian land.

That would mean that Jaring's mission was not a peace proposal, but an ultimatum, and that Sadat considered his terms non-negotiable. In which case auntie Golda was perfectly justified in telling Sadat where to shove it.

Mira · 03-27-2005, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Womble

There was a very legitimate and perfectly pragmatic reason: you do not return to your enemy land conquered from them when the state of hostility is not yet over. So, until the Jordanian claim for the West Bank persisted (that is, till the late 80-s), there was no reason for Israel to withdraw and every reason to NOT withdraw. As soon as the claim was withdrawn, negotiations began at the Madrid conference.

Given the Arab position at the time, and the fact that Israel had fought a major battle with the Arabs every decade of its short existence, Israel had no desire to retreat back to the "Auschwitz borders," which but for the grace of G-d and Arab incompetence, weren't defensible borders. Shortly after the war, however, Yigal Allon offered to return to the Arabs most of the territory won in the war in exchange for peace. Instead the Arab summit in Khartoum in September 1967 issued the Three Nos: "No peace with Israel, No negotiations with Israel and No recognition of Israel." And nothing changed in the PLO's position all the way up until their Soviet backers entire system collapsed and Rabin threw that scumbag Arafat another lifeline.

Mira · 03-27-2005, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Mil

David, do you know the total number of ethnic Germans ethnically cleansed from Czehoslovakia, Poland, USSR, East Prussia, Yugoslavia, Austria, France, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and even within Germany itself within the years 1945-1948?

Or the number of Jewish refugees that were ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries...

KettleWhistle · 03-27-2005, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by sharonbn

...by which time the territories were already riddled with settlments.

So what? These territories are our native land. We are the native sons of these territories. That's where our people come from. Settling these was not a mistake. Dayan's and this retard Golda Meir's calming down of Arabs and telling them that they'll be safe and shouldn't flee to Jordan was a mistake. Has Golda stayed in her kitchen (where she belonged) and Dayan in his tank, this wouldn't have been a problem, period. If you want to put blame on people, put it where it is due, and that's on Meir, Dayan, and the Peres-Beilin-Rabin trio.

Ophra · 03-27-2005, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by KettleWhistle

So what? These territories are our native land. We are the native sons of these territories. That's where our people come from. Settling these was not a mistake. Dayan's and this retard Golda Meir's calming down of Arabs and telling them that they'll be safe and shouldn't flee to Jordan was a mistake. Has Golda stayed in her kitchen (where she belonged) and Dayan in his tank, this wouldn't have been a problem, period. If you want to put blame on people, put it where it is due, and that's on Meir, Dayan, and the Peres-Beilin-Rabin trio.

Well we will soon rectify their mistake.... very soon... should be by the end of summer.

BTW ......... you coming over before then to visit your blessed "motherland" and give it a kiss goodbye before you run back to the comfort of LA ????

**MGB8** · 03-27-2005, 07:20 PM

There were many reasons to keep the WB and Gaza. Security, religious, political, pragmatic. But the bottom line is that there has been no concensus among Israelis for what exactly to do with the WB and Gaza for those 38 years. None. Don't give me the "majority wanted to give them back." That's a lie. Before Oslo, land for peace with the Palestinians was incredibly controversial. Oslo itself may well not have passed a referendum, if the it had been presented as leading to a Pal Arab state on 97% of the WB and all of Gaza and part of Jerusalem...

The Arabs haven't helped Israel, either, with unrealistic demands and unending terror which makes all the reasons for keeping the land seems even more powerful.

The de-facto plan was "autonomy" or "autonomy-plus" for the pal arabs - essentially "we leave them alone, they leave us alone" with Jordan and Egypt involved in certain parts of ruling the Pal Arabs. The Intifadas AND Oslo made that plan obsolete.

**Mediocrates** · 03-27-2005, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Ophra

Well we will soon rectify their mistake.... very soon... should be by the end of summer.

BTW ......... you coming over before then to visit your blessed "motherland" and give it a kiss goodbye before you run back to the comfort of LA ????

Thank god you will never set foot off your blighted land because your manners are so atrocious that you'd make a bad tourist anywhere. The Ugly Israeli.

**Mediocrates** · 03-27-2005, 07:35 PM

The Oprahs have convinced me to begin working to pull private funding for Israel. I'll be lobbying to reduce funding there and to spend the money over here.

KettleWhistle · 03-27-2005, 08:27 PM

I was going to ask for Ophra to be banned over her turning every thread in which she participates into a flame and constant offenses and name-calling, but then I realized that we are unlikely to get another Israeli Don Quixote here. I probably wouldn't mind if one of the Sancho Panzas that stands besides her as she types would join the forum.

Ophra · 03-27-2005, 09:27 PM

Thank god you will never set foot off your blighted land because your manners are so atrocious that you'd make a bad tourist anywhere. The Ugly Israeli.

Well Medio... it's no wonder you don't like us... you see we were bred and educated to be the antithesis of you Diaspora Jews... not for us the whiny, crying, banging your head on the Wall and hiding under the bed when the Cossacks came riding thru kinda Jew .... nor the kind that opts out for the soft life in good old US of A either .

The Oprahs have convinced me to begin working to pull private funding for Israel. I'll be lobbying to reduce funding there and to spend the money over here.

Oh no !!!

... the horror of it . Please don't forget to let GW know what a good Democrat you are and remember to tell him just how much you support our radicals and extremists that he so much wants us to bring under control and how you disagree with him about disengagement........ I'm sure he will double any meager amount you managed to send our way once you took the cream off the top.

**MGB8** · 03-27-2005, 09:45 PM

Diaspora Jews are absolutely necessary for the survival of the Jewish people, just as Israel is. Without the Diaspora, one Nuke in Israel - and that's the end of the Jewish people. Without Israel, Jews don't have a place to turn to when the local majority turns on them. Meanwhile, Diaspora Jews generally support Israel incredibly with political action and money. Do you think Israel would have survived without the "Zionist Lobby?" Maybe it would have, maybe not.

Ophra should get off her high horse.

Ophra · 03-27-2005, 09:56 PM

Ophra should get off her high horse.

I will get off my high horse when y'all stop insulting me and our way of life....until then I will give back as good as I get ... I won't start it... but I'm sure as hell not going to sit and take it.

Ophra · 03-27-2005, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by KettleWhistle

I was going to ask for Ophra to be banned over her turning every thread in which she participates into a flame and constant offenses and name-calling, but then I realized that we are unlikely to get another Israeli Don Quixote here. I probably wouldn't mind if one of the Sancho Panzas that stands besides her as she types would join the forum.

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