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Thread: Land for peace?

  1. #1
    ibrodsky
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    Land for peace?

    The question comes up over and over: should Israel give up land for peace?

    There are several reasons why Israel should not trade land for peace, not the least of which is that "land for peace" defies common sense.

    Peace comes when the adversaries sincerely want peace, i.e., they have had enough of bloodshed and wish to focus on building rather than destroying. Genuine peace can't be bought or bartered, because the side that demands land (or money) has even less incentive for maintaining peace once it has been paid off.

    Note also that Israel's enemies demand Israel give back all of the land captured during the Six Day War. Part of what they are trying to do here is get Israel to lend credence to their claim that the land is under "illegal occupation." They also know that Israel will never give back all of the captured land as it would leave the country indefensible; it's a great PR ploy for them to demand something they know will never happen.

    Aside from what Israel's enemies demand, is Israel morally obligated to eventually return all of the captured land? Just the opposite: Israel is morally obligated to never give back all of the captured land. Contrary to demands that Israel return to its '67 borders, Israel's enemies never recognized Israel's '67 borders.

    To give back all of the captured land would be wrong for three reasons: 1) it would send the message that there is no penalty for attacking Israel for 50+ years, 2) it would be to dishonor those who died or were wounded defending Israel since 1967, and 3) it would leave Israel with indefensible borders. (There are many other reasons that argue against it, such as that it would mean relinquishing Judiasm's holiest site to people who have repeatedly desecrated Jewish holy sites.)

    When Israel's enemies are truly ready for peace, they -- like Egypt and Jordan -- will stop demanding all of the captured territory. Israel has already given back most of the captured land (the Sinai) and has offered 97% of the West Bank and Gaza. Given how small Israel is, and the existential threat it faces, if Israel's enemies truly wanted peace they would accept 97%.

    Holding out for 3% plus the right to settle one million Arabs inside Israel, plus their maps showing "Palestine" encompassing all of Israel, shows that "peace" is not what they are after.
    Last edited by ibrodsky; 06-01-2002 at 04:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Vic
    Guest

    Re: Land for peace?

    Originally posted by ibrodsky
    To give back all of the captured land would be wrong for three reasons: [...] 3) it would leave Israel with indefensible borders.
    This is definitely the most important aspect. On a physical map, Israel's most densely-populated areas remind me of Sarajevo with an escape route via the Mediterranean. Any more information on it?

  3. #3
    danholo
    Guest
    The West Bank and Gaza areas are debatable but giving them up would be bad for Israeli security.

    As for the Golan heights, I see no reason for giving it to Syria.
    Syria used that area to its advantage against Israel.
    Israel has made that part of land bloom like all the other parts it has over the years. And I reckon that the area has a majority of Israelis.

  4. #4
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    Yes, and the fact is many if not most Syrians in the Golan Heights want the area to remain part of Israel.

    After all, no normal person would want to live in poverty and under a despotic regime when they can avoid both.

  5. #5
    Iori Yagami
    Guest
    Originally posted by ibrodsky
    Yes, and the fact is many if not most Syrians in the Golan Heights want the area to remain part of Israel.

    After all, no normal person would want to live in poverty and under a despotic regime when they can avoid both.
    Apparently, the palestinians want that, don`t they

  6. #6
    elke
    Guest
    Originally posted by Iori Yagami


    Apparently, the palestinians want that, don`t they
    You know, there are still many people in Russia, and from Russia, who think that Stalin was a good leader. I will leave it to the psychologists to figure out exactly why that would be. However, IMHO this is the same psychological phenomenon that causes the abused women to "love" their abusive husbands, boyfriends, etc; and the Palestinians to support Arafat.

  7. #7
    Vic
    Guest
    Originally posted by Iori Yagami
    Apparently, the palestinians want that, don`t they
    Maybe they enjoy the tremendous attention they get as "victims". It might be interesting to figure out who would lose what by making peace. I can make out one certain loser from my perspective: the Palestinian diaspora in Western Europe.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    I cross posted this but it's relevant here.


  9. #9
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    Originally posted by Iori Yagami


    Apparently, the palestinians want that, don`t they
    No, they don't. That's why I started a thread about Palestinians and Mental Illness.

  10. #10
    elke
    Guest
    Originally posted by ibrodsky
    Yes, and the fact is many if not most Syrians in the Golan Heights want the area to remain part of Israel.
    Really? Have there been any studies or anything? That's a great tidbit to use in arguments!

  11. #11
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    I saw a news report about them several years ago. They are obviously torn: most have family in Syria but now enjoy a higher standard of living.

    But admittedly, my statement was not based on a poll. Most of the Syrians in the Golan Heights probably want to keep quiet for several reasons.

  12. #12
    USA911Israel247
    Guest

    Thumbs up Interesting comparison

    Originally posted by elke


    You know, there are still many people in Russia, and from Russia, who think that Stalin was a good leader. I will leave it to the psychologists to figure out exactly why that would be. However, IMHO this is the same psychological phenomenon that causes the abused women to "love" their abusive husbands, boyfriends, etc; and the Palestinians to support Arafat.
    Wow...that's a good way to describe it. I never thought of it that way! I think that like any group of people, Palestinians have varying political beliefs...in this case, I think some care more about their national identity and pride, while others are willing to foresake those things in order to improve their quality of life. Hopefully for our side, the latter group will win out in the end, and the Palestinian people will come to see that they have no future with Arafat or anyone else who supports terrorism as their leader. I think a lot of Palestinians are starting to show discontent with Arafat, and hopefully those voices will prevail and they will elect a more progressive and effective leader who puts the welfare of his people ahead of his dream of the destruction of Israel. I think your analogy is pretty accurate...keeping Arafat in power would be like a woman clinging to her abusive husband, which unfortunately happens all too often.

  13. #13
    smama
    Guest
    how that could be ?
    How can the killer of children , the land of peace?
    withuot mercy they are killing people
    kicking the nationals from their land
    how they will be the land of peace?

  14. #14
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    Originally posted by smama
    how that could be ?
    How can the killer of children , the land of peace?
    withuot mercy they are killing people
    kicking the nationals from their land
    how they will be the land of peace?
    No one ever accused Arab terrorists of being for peace.

  15. #15
    thatwhy
    Guest

    How come most of the muslim in south-east asia.

    Think that. The jews are the one who plan the sept 11 attack ? They say none of the jews died in the process. 3000 jews who work in Twin tower were not there on the day of attack ?

    I just want to ask the Amercian.

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