Again, now you're just arguing semantics. Not to mention the usage of extremely broad generalizations is absolutely nauseating.
Home | Again, now you're just arguing semantics. Not to mention the usage of extremely broad generalizations is absolutely nauseating.
Can we agree that we stopped talking about 'carpet bombing' we could at least attempt to have a meaningful discussion?
Can we agree that 'carpet bombing' is probably a non sequitor and no one seriously proposes that?
You didn't answer my question. Where the allies justified in bombing dresden and (i believe) tokyo and berlin to rubble, or in nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was sherman justified in burning down Atlanta and scorching the earth on his march through Georgia?Originally Posted by Static
What does justified mean?
Sorry, I was with you, but I don't follow. You are using assumptions. You took two angry quotes and formulated a hypothesis that you think these people suggested. The only person I saw use words indescriminate killings was you. I really think you are overreacting, yet I can somewhat appreciate it as well.
Just remember, that when Israel rolled into Jenin, a hotbed of terrorism, after months of daily suicide bombings, Israel risked the life of its soldiers IN ORDER TO PROTECT the lives of innocent civilians. And lets not forget that most civilians seperated themselves from what amounted to over 100 very trained and very equiped guerilla fighting terrorists.
I'd say my opinion would be "carpet bomb Jenin" AFTER the civilians were warned and had time to leave. Forget the journalists.
I'm not worried about the journalists though, they know when to flee and when to get involved with the fight like so many Al-Reuters and AFP ones do to this day, chillin out with the Jihadees, creating news and shots.
Sorry, didn't read far enough to know that we dropped "Carpet Bomb", how about "All out Air Assault" on Jenin, rather than putting IDF lives at risk?
I don't know enough about the history of these incidents to formulate an opinion that doesn't stem from ignorance.
Somewhere in this forum, I saw Static use her favorite quote that completely proved her moral relativity. Something about "If you were born there and taught what they were taught, you would act just like they act" .
My parents were born in Communist Russia, grew up there, were taught there, lived there, learned there, etc. And all of their lives they knew they had to get out of there, had to ignore the propaganda, and could not act like their fellow Russians. And thank god they did excersise free will, independent thought, etc., and got the hell out of there.
You see, your moral relativity fails to recognize several principles. First off, it bases itself on the belief that people are products of their environment. This is only half true and I for one believe people have the ability to judge for themselves after the spoon fed propoganda they receive from either the Arab World or the Communist World. And if you try to tell me my parents lived in a place with freedom of press, expresion, etc., I'll laugh at that as well.
Sorry, I emphasize with your compassion, but I think you are very naive and have a severe case of moral relativity. There is right and wrong in this world. And wrong happens to be deliberately targeting civilians as terrorists do.
Maybe you would like to explain how this assertion -
- is correlative with this assertion?
I'm not sure where I've even implied otherwise, but since you've thrown the "moral relativist" badge on me, maybe you would like to direct me to where I've said otherwise?
Well that's fine, my dear, you are certainly free to think of me as you wish. Being labeled a "naive moral relativist" by you and other like-minded individuals on this thread is exponentially superior to the labels for those that would say things like "Frankly, I wish we could carpet bomb Jenin!"
Dear Static
I have been watching the discussion on this thread for several days and I must admit that it created mixed feelings in me. On the one hand, I wish there would be more people like you who truly seem to be appalled by violence, and to your credit you have not been selective with your outrage. You stated several times that you are against fanatics and fanaticism of both Arabs/Muslims and Israelis/Jews. On the other hand, when you spoke about Jews, you invoked the Holocaust, thus:
So now, I feel free to talk about the effects that the Holocaust had on many Jews, hopefully without facing the accusation that one often gets from our critics, that “Jews always bring up the holocaust……â€.
Don’t, get me wrong, not all Jews were affected by the Holocaust the same way, but I think that many of us drew different lessons from it than you seem to expect of us. What I learnt from the holocaust is that underneath the thin veneer of civilization, it’s an unfeeling, tough, cruel, harsh, “Dog Eat Dog†unfair, unsympathetic and false (full of propaganda) world out there. Not everyone is like that, but unfortunately too many are. I am not just saying this, I am speaking from personal experience. Both my parents are holocaust survivors and they told me of their horrific experiences. I will never know my elder brother, any of my grandparents and numerous aunts and uncles who all perished in the Holocaust. I am also aware of the physical and the mental scars of my relatives who survived. Worst of all, my family’s experiences were not isolated, nor were they the worst. Millions of others had equally bad or worse accounts. When it came to “Sympathy†or “Help†there was very little of it for Jews during the Holocaust. I am not saying none, but I re-emphasize, very little help and sympathy from anyone, Jews died lonely and cruel deaths and there was no one who listened. Wherever Jews turned, they were mostly knocked back, often hatefully, often because of fear of “What might happen to the potential helpers†and occasionally they did get some help. Mind you, the Holocaust was not just an aberration, Jews have been subjected to similar organized or sometimes just localized spontaneous acts of hate and persecution for 2000 years (admittedly, the Holocaust was the largest in magnitude and scope). The common factor in these 2000 years was that Jews were defenseless, they were passive, they were compliant, they hardly if ever retaliated, you might even say that most were pacifists, some by choice, others because they had no means of self defense but mostly, they were helpless victims.
So, what’s my reaction to this ? Well, I have to live in this world ‘as it is’ not as I would like it to be. I realize that when the ‘chips are down’, I have to rely on myself or on my fellow Jews to solve our problems. I also realize that the world has not changed. Although I do believe (or at least would like to believe) that most people have good in them but I also realize that most are ignorant, are easily incited and are easily misled by unscrupulous leaders, to do literally anything and I don’t just mean that about the Arabs (although at this stage of their history they seem to be captive of their culture of war than the rest of us). You yourself admitted this here:
You also said:
Well, I for one and many like me believe that if anything, historically, the Jews were chosen to be victims, not by God but by others who were stronger more numerous. and more unscrupulous. So, until things change, I advocate that the Jews and Israel should do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves. This does not mean that we should discard morality but at the same time we cannot afford to be driven by it exclusively either. So, for instance, if Israel would be threatened by weapons of mass destruction, I believe that it has the right and indeed even the obligation to project a similar deterrent. I am not saying that they should be the first ones to use it but they should make it clear, and mean it, that if it was used on them, there would be equal and maybe even worse retaliation. Static, if you want to be judgmental bout such sentiments, then so be it.
Gladly, here is your quote I found in the Why Seperation thread:
My point is this is not only simplistic, but it is not true. And I used my parents as a perfect example disproving it. And millions of other people whom emigrated from their respective birth places.
In fact, my point is that quotes like that one are generally used by "fresh out of college idealists" who want to excuse other peoples or cultures of barabric or assinine acts. Trust me, I used to use it myself when I came out of the PC bubble called academia.
The figure of six millions slughtered Jews who were murdered in the holocaust is an allied armies estimation, brought up in Nurnberg trails, 1945. Modern estimations suggest the number of Jews murdered to be closer to 7 million.
He who underestimate the number of Jews murdered is an idi0t. The fact some a-holes question facts doesn't make the fact false or unreal. It's merely proves these people are a-holes.
Same goes with the Arabs who keep reinventing history in new and suprizing ways, are a-holes just like the holocaust denyers.
Truth, History is one, and beyoned question.
It is called "a battle" which is a part of a series of "massacres" which are called "war". The arab fought a totall war against us Jews, with the clear intent to wipe Israel clean of us Jews, following the Nazis European example. Further more, the Arabs got Nazi SS "military advisors" looking to escape justice, looking at the Arabs as allies and instrument to finish off the Jewish nation.
The difference between causlities of a masscare and colletoral demage, is criminal intent. Criminal intent is a perfectly legal term, which can be proven by courts or historians. In each and every episod of modern or anciant Jewish history, there was never a crimminal intent in the death of non-combatant. So allegations of "massacre" cannot be proven, since such things never happened.
Also, there is the notion of "Total war", a war till annhilation. The rules of war are relative only to the unofficial agreement between the waring parties. Like not using poison gas in war. (indeed, both the Arabs, and the Nazis before them, were cautious in using poison gas against Britian and USSR and later Israel, in fear of similar retaliation).
I believe, Static, you have watched too many Vietnam war movies or Cowboys and Indians Holywood productions so you think Jewish soldiers to be something similar to what you've seen. Reality is different, and Jewish soldiers are far more human, moral, intelegent and overall superior to any other soldier of any other nation, USA included. Face up reality, you can't patch up American history into Israel. Jews are Jews, not Americans.
Further more, Arab fighters often enough desguise themselves as civilians exactly in purpose of creating such impressions. (of massacre of civilians). In the current conflict, they even resorted to register dead of natural causes or car crashes as "civilian victims" of Israel's "agression". Arabs causlties numbers can never be trusted, they are always biased and forged and bineded to their propaganda efforts.
Actually i find your level/depth of knowledge and understanding to be so thin as it is truly pointless to discuss anything with YOU.
If you had ANY facts at your disposal, you would have known that Jenin's so-called "refugee camp" section had been mostly abandoned by its civilian population, and contained mostly terrorists and journalists (is there a difference?) by the time israel sent in its troops. And not only that, but the house/buildings were booby-trapped.
My point was that rather than risk israeli troops' lives, of which 13 were killed in one attack there, israel could have done what clinton/NATO did in 199, and just wiped them out from the air, THEN sent in ground troops after they were crushed.
Unfortunately, a 2-step conversation like this, that includes a more detailed grasp of the facts/events at that time, is beyond your means. You simply dont bring much to the table here.
Maybe, or just maybe everyone tends to believe that their soldiers are the best, but that’s not the point. The point is that for some odd reason, the so called civilized world seems to expect Israel and it’s soldiers to behave PERFECTLY at all times, under all circumstances, no matter what acts of provocations take place. In principle there is nothing wrong of such expectation, we SHOULD all behave perfectly at all times! But the reality is that such perfection is unfortunately impossible especially in wars and especially for a small country such as Israel which is under siege from all fronts. The reality is that Israel has been subjected to unprecedented violence, terrorism and hate from it’s neighbours, who outnumber it by nearly 100 to one, for the last 120 years. So, I for the life of me cannot understand why the so called moral world seems to delight to point the finger only at what Israel does wrong, not only point but to amplify and to revel and remind us at every opportunity about “massacresâ€. “ethnic cleansingâ€, “war crimes†and “apartheidâ€. Now, the reality is that many of the accusations are malicious inventions, many are exaggerations and a few, in the last 100 years, are unfortunately in all probability, are true. As compared to that, until the last 20 years, most of the Arabs have not made a secret of their desire to wipe out, expel and exterminate all the Jews in Israel. Nor were these just threats, they actually demonstrated this intent at every opportunity by acts of war, continuous terrorism against civilians and lynching of captives. Even though in the last 20 years some of the surrounding states seem to have toned down their hate rhetoric somewhat (at least when they speak to Western media), they still continue the propaganda and incitement internally and they continue to support organizations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad who still don’t make a secret of the fact that they want to destroy the Jewish state and the Jews in it. Yet the preaching moralists seem to be deaf, dumb and blind when it comes to criticizing the Arabs. No sir, no academic boycotts against them by the so called British Academics and others like them in other countries…..Nor are there similar calls to boycott or divestments against more powerful nations such as Russia, China as well as other countries who have a record of “occupations†and human rights violations equaling (if not exceeding) the ones that are alleged against Israel. No Sir, it’s easier to victimize tiny Israel……….As I said in my previous post, the world has not changed much since the Holocaust, humanity still finds it easier to victimize the smaller nations and the minorities. They still favour and appease the powerful and more numerous nations who control strategic commodities such as oil……. Yes sir, ignorance, cynicism and selfishness are still rampant........
Having said that, I have to note once again that on the whole, I only have one criticism against the likes of Static and that is her naivety for insisting that Israel does not have the right to even project a like minded deterrence against potential attacks of mass destruction, let alone act on it. However, at least, I do have to acknowledge that she is intellectually honest and consistent in her outrage against Arab acts of hate and violence. which is more than I can say about some so called academics and the so called progressive left wing media (I won't even mention the extreme right wing Nazi types who were always scum and still are). That leaves only the pragmatics in the middle who are also sometimes confused by the conflicting rhetorics, but at least they try to make some sense of the situation in an honest way. I think I can classify Static to be in this group (I hope I am not wrong)
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