Disputed or Occupied?

[Pushtak21]

Is the West Bank and Gaza disputed or Occupied?


From what i hear in the news, they always say "Reporting from the OCCUPIED TERRITORIES this is CNN"...

but is it Occupied?

Afterall, what happened with the 'oslo'? Isn't that an agreement? And isn't agreements supposed to be a contractual agreements and a current dispute that will be resolved by 2 or more parties?

So why would people say occupied?

ITS DISPUTED (DAMMIT! ) afterall....there is a conflict, there is accords and there disputing on those claims..


personally, i think the media gave alot of credientials to the Palestinains thinking that ALL of WB and GAZA...and unfortunately for some UK/EU newspapers...all of Israel...as occupied land...

I say its disputed..what to do you say?

[nuttie]

Is the West Bank and Gaza disputed or Occupied?

It is in the nature of forums like this one that old discussions are forgotten and then crop up again. Fortunately, I have managed to find a very fine piece by our Canajew on the legal aspects of your question. Click HERE to read.

[Nitupsar]

You're absolutely and completely right the areas are disputed as is the rest of "Israel". But let us use the appropriate term: STOLEN!!! The whole land has been stolen and is continuing to get stolen from the inhabiatants! A theft naturally causes a dispute and worse between the thief and the victim, especially if the thief refuses to give back the stolen property .....
It is a very simple situation really, and it can only be resolved in one way since the thieves refuse to yield. An outside force (guess who) will have to enforce justice and peace and give the Palestinians their due.

[KettleWhistle]

Palestinians? What's that? Do you mean the Arabs that came from Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq to steal Jewish native land?

[Ariksan]

Disputed would indicate that the Arabs have some sort of a legal claim to Judea and Samaria.

Occupied is allright with me.

The question though is 'occupied by whom?' I'd say it is occupied by Arab squatters and their Tunis gang.

You're absolutely and completely right the areas are disputed as is the rest of "Israel".

Oh look, another French islamist hypocrite. Long live Corsica! Down with the French occupation!

[Mira]

You're absolutely and completely right the areas are disputed as is the rest of "Israel". But let us use the appropriate term: STOLEN!!! The whole land has been stolen and is continuing to get stolen from the inhabiatants! A theft naturally causes a dispute and worse between the thief and the victim, especially if the thief refuses to give back the stolen property .....
It is a very simple situation really, and it can only be resolved in one way since the thieves refuse to yield. An outside force (guess who) will have to enforce justice and peace and give the Palestinians their due.

It is impossible for the French to speak with moral clarity about the problems in the ME, since France played a significant role in creating the situation.

[tandem]

You're absolutely and completely right the areas are disputed as is the rest of "Israel". But let us use the appropriate term: STOLEN!!! The whole land has been stolen and is continuing to get stolen from the inhabiatants! A theft naturally causes a dispute and worse between the thief and the victim, especially if the thief refuses to give back the stolen property .....
It is a very simple situation really, and it can only be resolved in one way since the thieves refuse to yield. An outside force (guess who) will have to enforce justice and peace and give the Palestinians their due.

i agree with KW. enlighten me, kermit! the arabs in the disputed territories weren't even "palestinian" before arafat and arab leaders made up a fairy tale about the so-called descendents of the canaanites.

the earliest evidence of muslim existence in greater palestine dates back to about 700 AD, 1,500 years AFTER the jews were already there. and you say that we "stole" the arabs' homeland?! what the muslim arabs did to the jews as well as many non-muslim religious minorities in areas under their control is more than obvious if you look at the social geography of the middle east. muslims make up AT LEAST 98% of the population in the entire middle east. that's because over the years they've been ethnically cleansing everybody else and displacing millions. and the objective to islamify the world continues. now they're going after europe and i'm sure that one day they'll succeed because most europeans are just too stupid to see what's really happening.

for the record, a "palestinian" state already exists. it's called jordan. jordan encompasses 70% of palestine under british rule. 80% of the population in jordan are palestinian arabs. the "palestinians" already have a state. the only thing that's due for the arabs in the territories is a transfer.

[Ophra]

When is civil disobedience appropriate?

When is it proper to call for civil disobedience? Under what circumstances is it ethical to call on people to break the law or not to fulfill commands?
By Joseph Paritzky

Henry David Thoreau was an American naturalist. From 1842 onwards he refused to pay tax to the American government because he claimed it was illegal to pay tax to a government that allowed slavery.
He also participated in the Underground Railroad , spiriting black people from slavery in the south to freedom north of the Mason-Dixon line , openly violating the law prohibiting smuggling and concealing slaves.

In 1848 he delivered the lecture that would become known as Thoreau’s masterpiece, “On Civil Disobedience.”

More than 100 years later, Martin Luther King, Jr published his Letter From a Birmingham (Alabama) Jail, in which he called for civil disobedience in order to smash the racist Jim Crow laws that at the time were the law of the land in the southern United States.

When are such calls for civil disobedience reasonable? Under what circumstances is a person morally justified in calling for mass law breaking?

Breaking the law

In the two incidents mentioned above, the answer would seem simple. A person is morally justified, perhaps even morally bound, to call for civil disobedience when a democratic government does things that explicitly undermine those principles the democracy was established to protect and support.

So when a democratically elected government uses its power to discriminate against some people because of their race, sex or color, that government strikes a blow to the principle that forms the very base of democracy - equality. In such a situation, a person would be duty-bound to object to the discriminatory law.

Or if a government uses its power to strike a fatal blow to individual liberty – one must object. For example,people should have objected to the Nuremberg Laws because the discriminated on the basis of race and religion. Similarly to racist separation of whites and blacks in the American south, and to slavery.

If, God forbid, Israel were to pass a law forbidding Arabs/women/blacks (take your pick) from holding public office, or from taking legal action, or to utilize public transportation– citizens would be morally required to oppose that law.

If religious Jew were forced to eat non-kosher food, we would be morally bound to oppose to that law. Just as it is a moral requirement to oppose a law requiring a person to eat only kosher food.

Eldad: seeking democracy?

Knesset Member Aryeh Eldad called for mass civil disobedience again the Gaza disengagement plan last week. I have no doubt Eldad sees the evacuation of settlers from their homes as a desecration, and he opposes the disengagement with all his heart and soul.

But does the disengagement plan warrant civil disobedience?

I should point out that according to Israeli law, the Gaza Strip is occupied territory. It is governed by a military administration. Israeli law and justice has never been applied to the Strip (as it was to eastern Jerusalem and the Golan Heights).

Since when is pulling out of occupied territory a lethal strike at democratic principles? Does pulling out of Gaza strike a blow to the principle of equality? To individual liberty? Mr. Eldad is employing a principle that simply has no place in this context.

If the lofty ideals of democracy were truly in the hearts of those opposed to withdrawal, they would call on their black-hatted brothers currently sitting in yeshivot to join the army, or they would get out and demonstrate against inequality between Jews and Arab in this country.

So the next time withdrawal opponents come looking to brandish the “democratic” stick to call for civil disobedience, or to claim that evacuating settlements is not “democratic” – go ahead and smash a brick right between their eyes.

Source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...079762,00.html

[KettleWhistle]

Occupied..... by us .

You are right. So stop occupying it and move to Jordan, where you and the rest of those who hate Israel belong.

[nuttie]

You are right. So stop occupying it and move to Jordan, where you and the rest of those who hate Israel belong.

I think she can't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that a Jew cannot be a citizen of Jordan. This probably has to do with the British arrangements of 1923, maintained in Jordan to this day. And do I hear the Brits outrage and call for boycott?

[Ophra]

You are right. So stop occupying it and move to Jordan, where you and the rest of those who hate Israel belong.

Why should I move to Jordan KW ????????
I was born here,as were my parents (before the State existed),and have lived here all of my life,. I'm not a Russian living in America.... I'm an Israeli thru and thru ... unlike you.
I love my country and will never allow your kind to destroy us .
So sorry

[tandem]

actually, ofra, it is your kind of people who will ultimately destroy israel and no one else. you seem determined to make peace at virtually every price with the kind of people who will never stop hating you as a jew. the foundation of the arab world is islamic ideology. even if you solve the issues between israel and the palestinian arabs and give them everything they ask for they're still gonna hate you. that's just how they are and you can't change it.

[Ophra]

actually, ofra, it is your kind of people who will ultimately destroy israel and no one else. you seem determined to make peace at virtually every price with the kind of people who will never stop hating you as a jew. the foundation of the arab world is islamic ideology. even if you solve the issues between israel and the palestinian arabs and give them everything they ask for they're still gonna hate you. that's just how they are and you can't change it.

I have lived with my Arab neighbours for over 50 years tandem ... they do not hate me and I do not hate them.
Perhaps you know the Arab world better than I do..... but I doubt it.
If you have a problem with Peace in the ME why do you not take it up with George W Bush or Tony Blair or Ariel Sharon???.... I'm just a middle aged woman that agrees with them

[Mediocrates]

Dear Paritsky:


You do not understand what civil disobedience is. I'm sorry but it has never been founded on the government's right of first refusal to determine the legitimacy of that disobedience. That is I'm afraid stagecraft more suited to totalitarianism. The very notion of a loyal and compliant opposition is the stuff of Arab monarchies, African dictatorships, Banana Republics and the like. If you squash civil disobedience solely on the basis of the government's objection to it then you rapidly accrue the kind of government which neither tolerates nor understands dissent.

[SteveK]

actually, ofra, it is your kind of people who will ultimately destroy israel and no one else. you seem determined to make peace at virtually every price with the kind of people who will never stop hating you as a jew. the foundation of the arab world is islamic ideology. even if you solve the issues between israel and the palestinian arabs and give them everything they ask for they're still gonna hate you. that's just how they are and you can't change it.

tandem,

Please tell me then how we (I identify myself with your realism, but not necessarily with your proposed methods) can reverse the course of other Israelis, like the Israeli Prime Minister, in trying to re-write history? And, their trying is just days away from actually succeeding.

And, that Arab hatred for us, of which you speak, is not just about our being rejected from membership in their country clubs.