Home | 
Maybe they can have indigenous reservations like the Native Americans, so they can build casinos or something. See history generally has a way of working itself out and for all the weepers who want me give America 'back' to the Native Americans I just tell them to go to Longwoods because we already have.
Toga , A little moderation with the histerical historical outburst , nerver did any harm.Originally Posted by Toga
http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_jews.shtml
Lucky NativesMaybe they can have indigenous reservations like the Native Americans, so they can build casinos or something. See history generally has a way of working itself out and for all the weepers who want me give America 'back' to the Native Americans I just tell them to go to Longwoods because we already have.
What on earth is wrong with you Mira , Reffo understood exactly what I said, me no crazy but perhaps your brain is a little lazy
Reffo, when I said "Hurrah " !! it was not because :
"Every society on the planet has racism and other forms of prejudice in them, Israel included." as Mira said.
BUT THAT :
" The goal for all countries should be not only to tolerate, but to actually appreciate the perspectives of minority viewpoints and to understand how those perspectives are assets to each society." as Mira went on to Qualify.
The main point is that we all seem to agree that Goliath's remarks at the start of the thread about "halfcasts and worse" whilst being his honest opinion on this issue, are not congenial to proper relations among any people.
This was my point and I am happy that there is consensus on this.
My remark relating to a time if, or when, a majority Israeli- Arab demographic came about in Israel ; is intended to highlight the point that such an occurrence would be totally natural and attempts to forcefully thwart such a thing through expulsions or worse would be a disaster for Israel. Such a natural demographic occurence would be the most democratic manifestation the region had ever witnessed. Would it automatically result in the destruction of Israeli-Jewish society ? : I dont know !
South Africa may not be the White businessman's Paradise that it used to be but they have not been extirpated or driven into the sea by the Black Majority who still exist in very poor conditions.
As Reffo says, all chosen options to bring about a particular balance in a region should be moral and legitimate and if that is the case then the outcome will be naturally beneficial to the people who live there.
That is a value statement, but how does it shape up to reality? I've heard people from New Zealand, who never been to a war chastize those who live in tense regions blathering off liberal niceties. Some countries cannot afford such toleration because in some regions, it makes you look weak and easy to exploit.What on earth is wrong with you Mira , Reffo understood exactly what I said, me no crazy but perhaps your brain is a little lazy
Reffo, when I said "Hurrah " !! it was not because :
"Every society on the planet has racism and other forms of prejudice in them, Israel included." as Mira said.
BUT THAT :
" The goal for all countries should be not only to tolerate, but to actually appreciate the perspectives of minority viewpoints and to understand how those perspectives are assets to each society." as Mira went on to Qualify.
But these arent proper relations. The population we are talking about belongs to a hostile minority antithical to the existance of the state they live in and who sympathize if not identify with Israel's enemies. I wrote an article about this before, and I will post it again, but the situation does not allow for congenial relations. For example, the Druze are loyal Israeli citizens, so are most Beduin, the population at hand is reserved for that Arab minority who identifies with the enemy.The main point is that we all seem to agree that Goliath's remarks at the start of the thread about "halfcasts and worse" whilst being his honest opinion on this issue, are not congenial to proper relations among any people.
This was my point and I am happy that there is consensus on this.
It would not be natural; it would another tool in the war against Israel. Expulsions would not lead to disaster, they would lead to survival. Israel and any nation have the sovereign right to protect itself from destruction.My remark relating to a time if, or when, a majority Israeli- Arab demographic came about in Israel ; is intended to highlight the point that such an occurrence would be totally natural and attempts to forcefully thwart such a thing through expulsions or worse would be a disaster for Israel. Such a natural demographic occurence would be the most democratic manifestation the region had ever witnessed. Would it automatically result in the destruction of Israeli-Jewish society ? : I dont know !
Different conflict, different context, different people; please dont bring it up again.South Africa may not be the White businessman's Paradise that it used to be but they have not been extirpated or driven into the sea by the Black Majority who still exist in very poor conditions.
As Reffo says, all chosen options to bring about a particular balance in a region should be moral and legitimate and if that is the case then the outcome will be naturally beneficial to the people who live there.
The purpose of the Jewish state is to serve as a homeland where Jews can thrive, develop and practice their heritage in peace and prosperity. It is a Jewish state because the Jewish people have decided that after millennia of persecution and murder committed against them, Jews should return to their ancient homeland and live separately from the nations that have historically tried to wipe them out. By having a purely Jewish state, the Jewish people would be able to have a voice in the world and protect its interests, as any other state, but also be able to revive their religion and culture, to fulfill their historical religious mission. As such the Jewish state is a purely ethnic democracy. Perhaps later it will take on a more religious role, but now, its sole purpose as a state is to serve the Jewish constituency. The Arab nuclear option, as Arafat has referred to is, the "Palestinian womb," is as antithical to the existence of the Jewish state as an Arab army. It doesn’t matter how Arabs try to take over Israel, in all ways it should be stopped. If Arabs by population begin to threaten the existence of Israel, than Israel as an organic construction has the right to expel those Arabs that threaten its existence. In fact it is the only moral action. A numerical Arab majority means that Jews would no longer live in their own home in security; it would mean domination by another nation all over again, a nation that has no compulsion against committing genocide and massacres.
Liberal niceties stop when the actions one allows leads to national suicide. As the German prime minister recently said (more or less), "We will not watch our cherished democracy crumble around us as those who mock it and use it as a vehicle for tyranny triumph." He was speaking of the ban against the various neo Nazi Parties who were winning elections. Why were they banned? Because they threatened a cherished institution that would result in losing the society that was cherished by the purpose of the nation.
(added stuff that wasnt entered for some reason)
No one cared about 500,000 "Palestinian" Arabs when they were expelled during the Gulf War from Kuwait. Why? because they were a threat to Kuwaiti security and they cheered for the invading Saddam Hussein. If one would look at the situation with "Palestinian" Israeli Arabs, who have a tendency to cheer when there is a terrorist attack, or their elected representatives in the various vicious anti Zionist Arab parties who demonize Israel, you will see that there is a striking similarity.
Last edited by Overload; 05-30-2005 at 10:58 PM.
Overload,
I think it is safe to say that you have said nothing constructive here.
You say ,The Arabs should be expelled in order to maintain a Non-Arab Majority , or as you put it a Jewish majority. Should they expel agnostic Israelis in case they get a majority in the future?
Can I ask you at what age these Arab babies who are plotting the downfall of Israel should be expelled . Or should Arabs be expelled for having sex with a possible outcome of another dangerous baby? Perhaps they could just be denied citizenship. Perhaps let a couple have one baby each with citizenship then the rest are denied it. What would you do with twins?
If this is how you propose Israel should deal with its citizens then I am afraid It will be a very sad country indeed in the future. Israel may as you say , be a country for the Jews, but it will have to accept its other citizens as well and in most democracies having children is not a exilable offense.
With regards to South Africa you say:
Different conflict, different context, different people; please dont bring it up again.
Apartheid South Africa was not a conflict it was a system of repressing a majority of a country's people by excluding them from enjoying full rights much like what you are proposing within Israel. We are not even talking about the territories here so be careful with your terminologies Its not a conflict but you are proposing the same context.
Different people ? So what? Take a look at the model and see if parrallels can be applied. White South Africa had to take a big bit of democracy sandwich and chew, im sure many of those people expected to be treated terribly by the New Black Authorities. They weren't.
And : Please dont bring it up again ? Sorry Couldn't help it.
Comparing Israels Arab population to German Neo Nazis is just crude.
Israel has its democratic obligations , same as others, No special case exemptions , no "get out of democracy free" clauses, If Israels Arab citizens ever were to become a majority then the country would carry on, and I suspect that in arriving at that demographic many admirable developments would be witnessed along the way.
Since Judaism is a nationality, not just a religion, agnostism among Jews is irrelevant for determaining thier citizenship or rights.
Do you advocate to seperate babies from their parents, should expellsion of Arabs becomes a reality?Can I ask you at what age these Arab babies who are plotting the downfall of Israel should be expelled .
Impossible under current international law. We do hope though, Arabs will be given a citizenship of any country of the world other then Israeli. They have to do so under their own choise. Many do.Perhaps they could just be denied citizenship.
Yet it is a reality in Israel.Comparing Israels Arab population to German Neo Nazis is just crude.
Israel is a Jewish nationstate. Being Jewish nationstate is Israel only reason for existance. Therefor, Democratic ragime is extra, not obligatory in all conditions. Israel is a Jewish state with a democratic ragime. The later is expandable. Democracy will endure for as long as it serves the purposes and interests of the Jewish people. Democracy is an instrument to achive freedom, not the final objective by its own.Israel has its democratic obligations , same as others,
I am aware of this line of debate. Judaism is considered by some a Nationality, by others it isn't. The israeli Arabs on the other hand do have an indisputable nationality and it is Israeli. Many Israelis when describing the 1948 War will take time to outline the fact that Arabs were encouraged to stay in their villages and towns as the official intent of the founding fathers was not a purge. So if the intent of the original Zionists was to allow the indigenous arab population to remain as citizens then Israel future was envisioned as a country for the Jewish people that would be inclusive of others, specifically , the indigenous Arabs of which we now speak. And I presume it was also envisioned that these citizens would be allowed to procreate.
No I dont. It is my opinion (and only that) that should it come to such a thing as reaching into the heart of a society and rooting out certain citizens for expulsion or any other form of forced population control then a huge historical lesson has been deliberately forgotten by the Jewish people who allow such a thing to be perpetrated against innocent citizens within the Jewish state.Do you advocate to seperate babies from their parents, should expellsion of Arabs becomes a reality?
You also say that comparing Israeli Arabs to Neo Nazis is a reality in Israel.
I think you are being disengenuous. Whilst many may have grave misgivings and harbour resentful beliefs I know for a fact that there is a legitimate and lawbiding population of Arab Israelis. You are being sensationalist for the sake of your arguement.
Some people would agree with you, I am sure, that the democracy of Israel is a dispensable comodity. Many more would not. No country is worth having if democracy and rights are not equally accessible to all citizens and indeed non-citizens who are guests. This is the theory that all civilised peoples aspire to when they go about there business of electing governments and paying taxes. Many countries have a long way to go , but are trying. What you are advocating is counter-productive to any country's wellbeing.Israel is a Jewish nationstate. Being Jewish nationstate is Israel only reason for existance. Therefor, Democratic ragime is extra, not obligatory in all conditions. Israel is a Jewish state with a democratic ragime. The later is expandable. Democracy will endure for as long as it serves the purposes and interests of the Jewish people. Democracy is an instrument to achive freedom, not the final objective by its own.
You are mistaken if you think that posting to you means I debate with you. Jewish nationality is a fact, wheather you accept it or not. I don't realy care about your opinion, it is irrelevent to me what you or others realy think.
I am simply informing you of the facts, with hope lurkers would learn a thing to two too.
Wrong. Their nationality is Arab. Their citizenship israeli.The israeli Arabs on the other hand do have an indisputable nationality and it is Israeli.
Did Jews living in Europe endangered in any way the lives of the native Europeans? Did Jews mass murdered gentiles on regular basis in Europe? Did Jews of Europe demanded to wipe regions of Europe clean from gentiles?It is my opinion (and only that) that should it come to such a thing as reaching into the heart of a society and rooting out certain citizens for expulsion or any other form of forced population control then a huge historical lesson has been deliberately forgotten by the Jewish people who allow such a thing to be perpetrated against innocent citizens within the Jewish state.
Had Arabs in Israel were behaving 1% as good as the Jews in Europe there would be peace long ago.
Your equation between Jews before the holocaust and the current Arabs can blow in your face and prove you to be anti semetic, leveling false accusations against holocaust victims is not tollerated in these regions of the net.
This is a sad fact in Israel. Arabs are proven Jew haters, however rights and priviligese they earn. Arabs are ungreatful.You also say that comparing Israeli Arabs to Neo Nazis is a reality in Israel.
I think you are ignorant of the wrong type. The kind of ignorant who thinks he knows better. Pathetic.I think you are being disengenuous.
There are several kinds of Arab Israeli. Druz and Badawin even serve in the IDF and enjoy any right that associated with that.Whilst many may have grave misgivings and harbour resentful beliefs I know for a fact that there is a legitimate and lawbiding population of Arab Israelis.
When most Israelis talk about Arabs and Israeli Arabs, usually Badawins and Druz are excluded from the defenition. Badawins and Druz are a minority within the Arabs anyhow.
Wish I was.You are being sensationalist for the sake of your arguement.
I don't care about "other" opinions.Some people would agree with you, I am sure, that the democracy of Israel is a dispensable comodity. Many more would not.
We have hierarchy of rights. Having a Jewish nationstate and the right of self defense outweigh our fondness for democracy and the rights that stem from it.No country is worth having if democracy and rights are not equally accessible to all citizens and indeed non-citizens who are guests.
I can see that Gilgamesh, whilst not having a debate, will not hesitate in slinging insults , What does he think the lurkers will learn from how he uses insults?
I see Gilgamesh has also loaded his "debate" with the trusty anti-semitic booby trapfor the diplomatically impaired. No thanks Sir. I've had enough of your "opinion" on this topic. i have made my point and it stands.
A majority of Israelis are proud to cite Israel's Democratic credentials. People of your "opinion" are a minority. A democracy does not expel people from its midst for no other reason other than race, nationality, religion. Fact !
None of it has anything to do with Israel's Democratic credentials. Arabs can vote in free elections all they want. That's what Democracy means. There is nothing more to Democracy than the voting rights.
ernesto
Blanket statements and slogans are worse than useless. But even Howard Zinn taught you that I'm sure. Even Chomsky knows the value of a good broadside when he hears it.
This conversation has taken the thread of " Should Israel be allowed to become a half-cast country or worse " to a position of " its OK to expel Arab israeli citizens in order to ensure a certain demographic is maintained".
I strongly disagree with this notion and it has everything to do with Israel's diplomatic credentials. I am maintaining that the majority of law-biding Israeli citizens would be outraged by the proposal that forced expulsions or other totalitarian methods of population control be employed for ANY REASON in their country.
It does not take Howard Zinn goldfish or Noam Chomsky's mama to figure this one out. Its a No-Brainer as they say in the lobotomy ward where this conversation could probably come to a pretty sensible conclusion. Im just interested to see how strange it can become here , on your democratic forum.
Forced expultions are not totalitarian methods. Rather, refusals to do so are. From the Nazi Germany to Soviet Russia, the problem was, first and foremost, the goverment's refusal to either expell the Jews to the Land of Israel, where we belong, or to allow us to leave for our Fatherland.
Futhermore, in a democracy the majority can vote to maintain it's cultural cohesiveness, which is really what the whole thread is about.
It's the people who live in countries with strong national identities that seem to be so ashamed of nationalism. That's what's really at the root of this.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks