Arab Israeli / Jews Israeli...

[ernesto]

Overload , you are starting to confuse yourself,

We are talking about expulsions, you are talking about emmigration. Carrots on sticks and a happy family waiting for you at the other end. You are talking about voluntary transfers to voluntarily recipient countries. You are talking a fantasy of a couple of million people waking up in the morning and thinking "Ahh Sure I think Ill be off, c'mon Kids , were off to Syria to live with Uncle Ahmed." in their Hundreds of thousands....Rubbish, Rubbish, Rubbish.

You will not get a mass voluntarily exodus of Indigenous Arabs either from, Israel of the Occupied territories. No!
The option is to force those who wont go. This is expulsion and is a violation of Human Rights.
The percentages you quote for encouraging Arabs to leave Israel 40 /42 % , very close and that is assuming it is voluntary through encouragement. Not going to happen , so your percentages are meaningless.

How do you propose to get a mass movement of Arabs voluntarily: explain please or forget it.

[Overload]

Overload , you are starting to confuse yourself,

We are talking about expulsions, you are talking about emmigration. Carrots on sticks and a happy family waiting for you at the other end. You are talking about voluntary transfers to voluntarily recipient countries.

Thats the result. How transfer will be carried out is a matter of policy.

You are talking a fantasy of a couple of million people waking up in the morning and thinking "Ahh Sure I think Ill be off, c'mon Kids , were off to Syria to live with Uncle Ahmed." in their Hundreds of thousands....Rubbish, Rubbish, Rubbish.

People dont do anything unless you give them incentives to. Like, incentives to work in another country if you dont allow them to work in yours, giving them money for their houses ext.

You will not get a mass voluntarily exodus of Indigenous Arabs either from, Israel of the Occupied territories. No!

It will be voluntary simply because the point is to make where they live now impossible to live normal lives so they leave.

The option is to force those who wont go. This is expulsion and is a violation of Human Rights.

A violation of human rights is war itself. This is what transfer will prevent.

The percentages you quote for encouraging Arabs to leave Israel 40 /42 % , very close and that is assuming it is voluntary through encouragement. Not going to happen , so your percentages are meaningless.

You will see what I mean below.

How do you propose to get a mass movement of Arabs voluntarily: explain please or forget it.

Here. This will explain most of your problems.

The world can go on proposing futile peace plans—or it can consider a solution that would actually end the conflict: the non-lethal but forcible expulsion of the Palestinians to Jordan.

(Arguably, Jordan is Palestine anyway, and has been since at least 1923, when three-quarters of the League of Nations mandate of Palestine was set up as the Emirate of Transjordan by the British and reserved for Arabs. The Palestinians do not constitute a distinct nationality, being racially, ethnically, linguistically, religiously, and culturally indistinguishable from the majority of Jordan’s population.)

Population transfer is almost certainly the only long-term solution—which is why 1/3 of the Israeli electorate already favor it, usually in the form known as the “Elon Plan” after cabinet minister Benny Elon. (One of Elon’s aides showed him a draft of this article—he seems to have appreciated it but responded that his own intentions towards the Arabs were more “peaceful.”)

The underlying principle is simple: borders work. If the Palestinians live in Jordan and the Israelis in Israel, the day-to-day bloodletting will cease. Suicide bombs and other attacks are only possible when hostile populations have physical access to each other. Separate them, and they can only attack each other by outright military invasion, which Israel can defeat.

There is already a wall around Gaza. Since its completion, not a single suicide bomber has emerged from that territory. Israel is currently building a wall around Judea and Samaria. Since the effectiveness of a wall depends on its ability to establish a “sterile” zone inside it, it is time to follow this policy to its logical conclusion and plan the removal of the threat-bearing population.

This is the point in the argument where most people blanch. But this is based on the mistaken assumption that population transfer must be brutal, like the Turkish genocide of the Armenians or Stalin’s deportation of the Crimean Tatars.

But it is the genocidal aspect of “ethnic cleansing” that decent people rightly object to. Non-genocidal ethnic cleansing—even if nothing to be taken lightly—is another question entirely.

Involuntary population transfer obviously cannot be wholly peaceful and fair. But if properly organized and carried out in a disciplined manner, it can be done with a tolerably low level of violence, i.e. one involving less long-term bloodshed than the current situation, in which people are dying every day. It would not require machine-gunning people in the streets.

The key would be a graduated system of carrots and sticks. Those Palestinians who left in response to a minor prod would receive nothing stronger. But those who required a stronger push would get it.

The ethical principle is that any given Palestinian would only get as much rough treatment as he brought on his own head by failing to leave sooner.

Transfer would have to be inexorable, relentless, and executed with the utmost self-discipline on the part of the Israeli army. If it took 2-3 years to slowly squeeze the Palestinians out, this would be acceptable, if it were the price of getting rid of them forever without the mass slaughter that a Western liberal democracy like Israel cannot countenance.

Logistically, population transfer would be accomplished by Israel militarily taking over a small territory on the east bank of the Jordan River and extruding the Palestinians there by squeezing them out of the West Bank sector by sector. Jordan has shown in the past that she does not like taking in Palestinian refugees, but will do so. In any case, Jordan does not have the military muscle to object.

Things would play out something like this:

1. As soon as the repatriation policy is credibly announced, X% of the Palestinians see the writing on the wall and leave.


2. When a cash bribe is offered, another X% go.


3. When stiff taxes are imposed, another X%.


4. When arrangements for compensation for lost property are put on a sliding scale rewarding those who leave soonest, another X%.


5. When Palestinians are fired from their jobs, another X%.


6. When they only receive an unemployment check if mailed to an address outside Israel, another X%.


7. When Palestinians are expelled from schools and universities, another X%.


8. When certain parts of pre-1967 Israel are declared “Palestinians-free zones,” another X%.


9. When the electricity is turned off, X%.


10. When the water is turned off, X%.


11. When sale of gasoline to Palestinians is prohibited, X%.


12. When sale of food to Palestinians is prohibited, X%.


13. When a 24-hr curfew is imposed, X%.

At various times, all of these measures have actually been employed already. While they have motivated only about 250,000 Palestinians to leave, they have been proven to be physically and politically possible. The key is to drive up the percentages in a dispassionate and relentless way. The key to this is to apply these policies systematically and with sufficient credibility to establish the futility of resistance.

Further measures would include:

14. Ban all economic activity.


15. Ban the importation of all foodstuffs and destroy agriculture with aerial spraying. Naturally, this must be combined with the provision of food to any refugee who leaves.


16. Deplete the Palestinians’ aquifers; this is happening anyway simply because there is a water shortage.


17. Demolish/sell housing and destroy all possessions except those being loaded onto a bus to Jordan. Give proceeds to those leaving.


The core tactic is simply to squeeze the Palestinians out. The objective, of course, is not to kill them, so this must be done sector-by-sector and combine the starvation of one sector with the generous provision of free food in the sector immediately closer to the border. As Palestinians fled the starved areas for areas where food was available, a military cordon would be put up behind them.

The process would be repeated until they were all out.

Governments all over the world regularly deport people. It is a legitimate function of a sovereign state to determine that the presence of certain persons is not in the national interest, to make it illegal, and to enforce it. Even the United States, which has de facto given up enforcing its southern border, still deports 300,000 people per year.

The closest precedents for population transfer are the expulsion of millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe following World War II and the exchange of populations between Turkey and Greece after World War I. Both precedents were bloodier than anything I’m proposing. But both did settle longstanding issues that could not be settled any other way. Both have been accepted as legitimate by the world at large.

Why not in Israel?

International opinion, contrary to leftist myth, was long willing to contemplate population transfer. As Herbert Zweibon of Americans For A Safe Israel has written,

“Zionist leaders from right and left advocated it in the 1920s and 1930s. Two American presidents endorsed it in the 1940s. The British Labor Party made transfer of Arabs from Palestine part of its official Middle East plank in 1944.” (Outpost, October 2002)

Indeed, some amount of population transfer has always been accepted as part of the Oslo process—although Oslo envisaged cleansing Gaza and part of the West Bank of Jews, not Palestinians.)

So why are people so shocked?

The Arab states would obviously react negatively to population transfer. But there is little they could do. With the exception of Egypt and Jordan, they are already so hostile to Israel that it could hardly make matters worse.

Morally, the Arab states have no standing to complain. They have alternately brutalized and expelled the Palestinians within their own borders, and they expelled nearly a million Jews after the founding of the State of Israel in 1948.
Transfer is the solution.

[ernesto]

Overload,

I dont know quite what to say.

Im dumbfounded.

Does anyone on this forum have anything to say about Overload's masterplan.
Im going to lie down for a while. I feel funny. Ill be back later.

[Mediocrates]

In fact since 2001 Jordan has clamped down on Palestinian travel; e.g. illegal immigration via the Allenby bridge, which up until that time saw upwards of 1500 Palestinians a day leaving Yesha. Palestinian militancy has never played well in Jordan, since 1951 when the current king's great grandfather was assassinated by a Palestinian at the al Aqsa. This ongoing animosity is at the root of why there continues to be thousands of 'refugees' in 'refugee camps' inside of Jordan. The Jordanians saw losing the west bank as a good enough trade if it meant getting rid of, or expelling, their Palestinians. Likewise the Egyptians saw Gaza in this way; give up a tiny strip of land in exchange for expelling troublesome violent unwanted Palestinians. About 2 out of 3 Palestinians in the world live in Jordan today.

~240,000 Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait in 1991 following the end of the Gulf War. While it was fine for Saddam Hussein to grant them special status with extra benefits, stipends, cash and housing in Iraq, when Iraq lost the Kuwaitis, who had brought in cheap Palestinian labor before the war felt it would be unfair to their own people to give their indirect enemies all kinds of reconstruction work. Today Palestinians living in Iraq have increasingly precarious lives as their neighbors, want their homes, which were taken from them and given to Palestinians, want them back.

Moreover Palestinians have been leaving Southern Lebanon for more than a decade, either to Europe or an English speaking country. (So now there are 'refugees' 3 or more generations and 2 steps removed). Most of the ~200,000 Palestinians who call themselves 'diaspora' living in the west are from Lebanon.

So 'transfer' or whatever you want to call it, really is very common. And consider this - that the moment a Palestinian state is declared, EVERY Arab country in the world will immediately expel every last Palestinian resident to return to their new 'homeland.' This will create a massive infrastructure problem for the Palestinians and will probably lead to widespread civil disruption, fighting and general collapse of the Palestinian people and their new country. Do they reap what they sow?

[Rivka]

If it is too simplistic , then why dont you simply deal with it ?

wow that was very insightful I need to use that sometime...

[KettleWhistle]

This issue ought to be rather simple: the West-Bank "Palestinians" are Jordanian citizens. So they can and should be deported to Jordan. The Gaza "Palestinians" are Egyptian, so they can and should be deported to Egypt.

[Ophra]

Overload,

I dont know quite what to say.

Im dumbfounded.

Does anyone on this forum have anything to say about Overload's masterplan.
Im going to lie down for a while. I feel funny. Ill be back later.

I think he should change his nick to OverLord and anybody got a copy of Mein Kampf he can borrow

[Gilgamesh]

I think he should change his nick to OverLord and anybody got a copy of Mein Kampf he can borrow

OverLord can be a very good nick. Even a great link! See this entry!

[Mediocrates]

That depends - when circumstances become bleak enough people tend to leave, (German Jews circa 1937 notwithstanding). I think something like one out of every three Irish left Ireland between 1840 and 1845 (about 2 million). I wonder what all the Hosha'nas would say when or if conditions in the Shiny Happy Free Democratic People's Islamic Republic of Palestine every degraded so badly that Palestinians started leaving in droves. For as you know - whatever middle class was there left since 2000 when they saw their businesses destroyed by the jihadtifada and taken or stolen by Arafat's cronies and terror cells. So today- there isn't much of a middle class among the Palestinians. They left - were they cowards or were they smart? Were they traitors to the cause or heros to their families? I wonder what the Hosha'nas would say if 5 years out, 10, when Brokendownistan doesn't function and thousands flee - because they can? I don't think anyone has to propose anything as dramatic as pushing them out - it's just as likely that those who can and have skills and education and an aversion to dust and squalor will go on their own. Absorbed into Europe, England, Canada and the US. Will anyone worry about those left behind? Will anyone wring their hands about those evil dastardly Palestinians who left? Probably to the same degree that Oprah hates Israelis who settle here. Just goes to show - - - there's always someone who's angry at you for not being as miserable as they are, I guess.

[Reffo]

Things would play out something like this:

1. As soon as the repatriation policy is credibly announced, X% of the Palestinians see the writing on the wall and leave.


2. When a cash bribe is offered, another X% go.

....

Overload, I can understand your frustration with the current situation but your 17 point plan is way over the top. Firstly, no decent human being could condone the indiscriminate nature of such a plan and secondly but perhaps even more importantly, Israel would not get away with it. After all, remember, it's just a small country with limited means. It already has many enemies and only a few true friends. With a plan like yours, it would become truly isolated and I don't think it would survive.....

If you must talk expulsions, I would favour a more targeted approach against trouble makers, in particular of the leaders and the inciters (such as the Imams and the Mulahs who openly preach hatred against the Jews) , but even that would not be easy unless it would be carried out during periods of extreme Palestinian violence against Jews.

[Overload]

Overload,

I dont know quite what to say.

Im dumbfounded.

Does anyone on this forum have anything to say about Overload's masterplan.
Im going to lie down for a while. I feel funny. Ill be back later.

Ernesto dont feel dumb founded. This is not solely my master plan, and there are countless variations of it if you have problems with it. What you have to understand is that it is malleable. If you have an objection to one point, we can (or when transfer is on the table) politicians can debate how to best implement it.

The most important thing is that you have learned something and we were able to exchange our views in a mature manner.

[Overload]

Overload, I can understand your frustration with the current situation but your 17 point plan is way over the top. Firstly, no decent human being could condone the indiscriminate nature of such a plan and secondly but perhaps even more importantly, Israel would not get away with it. After all, remember, it's just a small country with limited means. It already has many enemies and only a few true friends. With a plan like yours, it would become truly isolated and I don't think it would survive.....

If you must talk expulsions, I would favour a more targeted approach against trouble makers, in particular of the leaders and the inciters (such as the Imams and the Mulahs who openly preach hatred against the Jews) , but even that would not be easy unless it would be carried out during periods of extreme Palestinian violence against Jews.

I am sure it sounds a little harsh. But everything can be done legally at first. For example, there are 150,000 illegal Palestinian Arabs from Judea and Samaria living in Israel. Deport them first. Then demolish illegal houses. First focus on those residing in Judea and Samaria and only then on Israeli Arabs. Confiscate residency permits from the 200,000 some such Arabs living in eastern Jerusalem. Ban the Islamic movement, raise the qualifying percentage for party representation to 5% so the anti Semitic Anti Zionist Arab parties are no longer represented. The offer cash for Palestinian Arabs in Judea and Samaria to sell their homes (probably above market rate as incentive). (A group is already doing this today, imagine how better it was if the government was doing this) Only when everyone that was legally deported or sold property to move above market rate, those few who are left, something like the plan above would have to be implemented. Leaving out the Druze and Beduion who are loyal citizens, Israel would have to contend with about 500,000 thousand or so people, hardly something beyond its means. As long as it is graduated and force is used as the absolute last resort, there should be no major problem.

[Reffo]

Only when everyone that was legally deported or sold property to move above market rate, those few who are left, something like the plan above would have to be implemented.

I consider myself to be a fairly "hard nosed" individual when it comes to the issue of the survival and viable existence of Israel. Despite that and perhaps because of that, I am agaist the idea of forced expulsions and discriminatory tactics that you propose against sections of the population who are not troublesome. In my opinion, it would not only not solve Israel's problems but it would be counterproductive. However, as I said before, I have no problems with the idea of implementing harsh and unpleasent methods against those elements who are implacable enemies of Israel and who actively harm the state, the Jews and the more moderate Palestinians.

[Overload]

I consider myself to be a fairly "hard nosed" individual when it comes to the issue of the survival and viable existence of Israel. Despite that and perhaps because of that, I am agaist the idea of forced expulsions and discriminatory tactics that you propose against sections of the population who are not troublesome. In my opinion, it would not only not solve Israel's problems but it would be counterproductive. However, as I said before, I have no problems with the idea of implementing harsh and unpleasent methods against those elements who are implacable enemies of Israel and who actively harm the state, the Jews and the more moderate Palestinians.

Well surely you can at least accept actively promoting Arab emigration? I can contend with a Palestinian Arab minority residing in Israel along with Beduins and Druze, but not a sizeable minority.

[Reffo]

Well surely you can at least accept actively promoting Arab emigration? I can contend with a Palestinian Arab minority residing in Israel along with Beduins and Druze, but not a sizeable minority.

Sure, as long as there are no elements of compulsion or discriminatory measures involved against people who don't break the law.