Arab Israeli / Jews Israeli...

[Ophra]

Transfer is the solution.

PSSSSSSST .....


Kach, Kahane Chai
Israel, extremists

What are Kach and Kahane Chai?

Two marginal Israeli groups that have used terrorism to pursue their goals of expanding Jewish rule across the West Bank and expelling the Palestinians. Both groups grew out of the anti-Arab teachings of Rabbi Meir Kahane, an American-born extremist who founded and led Kach (its name means “thus” in Hebrew) until he was assassinated in New York in 1990. Israel outlawed Kach and its offshoot Kahane Chai (“Kahane Lives”) in 1994, a month after a Kach supporter shot and killed 29 Muslim worshipers at a West Bank mosque. Experts say Kahanist leaders in Israel have steered clear of terrorism recently in hopes of getting Israel to lift the ban on the two groups, but Israeli authorities continue to regard Jewish extremists as a potential terrorist threat. The State Department lists Kach and Kahane Chai as foreign terrorist organizations.

What terrorist attacks have been associated with Kach and Kahane Chai?

The deadliest came in February 1994, shortly after the signing of the Oslo peace accords between Israel and the PLO, when Baruch Goldstein, a Brooklyn-born doctor and Kach supporter, opened fire with a machine gun inside the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron. He killed 29 people and wounded dozens more before he was himself killed. Goldstein chose to attack at a particularly sensitive religious site; the mosque is built atop the Cave of the Patriarchs, where, according to both Jewish and Muslim traditions, the prophet Abraham and his family are buried.

Kahanists have also shot, stabbed, and thrown grenades at Palestinians in Jerusalem and the West Bank. In cases where Kach and Kahane Chai have not themselves claimed responsibility for anti-Arab attacks, Kahane and his followers have declined to condemn such violence and have often glorified it.

The Machteret—a 1980s Jewish underground terror group with links to Kach—staged several attacks, including an unsuccessful May 1980 campaign to kill several Palestinian mayors, before being broken up. Israeli authorities also foiled the Machteret’s plans to blow up Jerusalem’s al-Aqsa Mosque, which is built atop the contested holy site known by Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary and by Jews as the Temple Mount. Destroying the mosque, experts say, could provoke a massive Middle Eastern conflict.

How big are Kach and Kahane Chai?

Recent reports say Kach and Kahane Chai have an overlapping core membership of several dozen as well as a larger number—perhaps several hundred—of less committed supporters that includes both native-born Israelis and radicalized immigrants from the United States and elsewhere.

Where do Kach and Kahane Chai operate?

In Israel and the West Bank. Two West Bank settlements—Kiryat Arba, near Hebron, and Tapuach—are thought to be the cradles of Kahanist support.

Have Kach and Kahane Chai been active in the current Israeli-Palestinian violence?

We don’t know. Neither group has claimed responsibility for any of the recent anti-Arab bomb plots or the more common roadside shootings of Palestinians by Israeli extremists. Nor have Israeli authorities yet proved any Kach or Kahane Chai connection to these attacks. In April 2002, Israeli police arrested a former Kach spokesman in connection with an attempt to leave an explosive-packed trailer outside a Palestinian girls’ school and hospital in East Jerusalem, but experts say the plot was arranged by individuals affiliated with another Jewish extremist group that is not affiliated with Kach or Kahane Chai.

Who was Meir Kahane?

Martin David Kahane was born in 1932 in Brooklyn, New York. As a teenager, he joined Betar, a quasi-military youth group affiliated with the Revisionist Zionist movement, which sought a Jewish state in all of British-ruled Palestine. In 1968, Kahane, who trained as a lawyer and rabbi, formed the Jewish Defense League (JDL), a militant group that promoted Jewish vigilantism and urged American Jews to arm themselves under the slogan “every Jew a .22.” Putatively organized to combat African-American anti-Semitism, the JDL went on to target the offices and representatives of Soviet-bloc nations, the Palestine Liberation Organization, Arab states, and Jewish organizations it saw as moderate.

When did Meir Kahane form Kach?

In 1971, after he emigrated to Israel. Kach brought Kahane’s Jewish-power philosophy to the Israeli scene and endorsed the idea of using “terror against terror,” which Kahane represented by the Hebrew acronym TNT. Kahane advocated the formation of a “worldwide Jewish anti-terror group” that would be “organized and aided in exactly the same way as the terrorists are aided by the Arab governments.” Kach also organized protests against the Israeli government and ran candidates for local and national office. Kach won several seats on the city council of the West Bank settlement Kiryat Arba. In 1984, Kahane was elected to the Knesset, Israel’s parliament.

Is Kach still represented in the Israeli parliament?

No. In 1985, Israel amended its election laws to disqualify parties that oppose democracy and incite racism. Kach was banned from subsequent elections.

When did Meir Kahane die?

In November 1990. While speaking to followers at a New York hotel, Kahane was shot and killed. El-Sayyid Nosair, an Egyptian Islamist who has been linked to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing plot, was convicted on weapons charges in connection with Kahane’s killing.

How did Kahane Chai form?

Amid squabbling that arose in Kach after Kahane’s death, Kahane’s son Binyamin claimed his father’s mantle by becoming the leader of a splinter group called Kahane Chai. In December 2000, Binyamin Kahane and his wife were killed by Palestinian gunmen in a drive-by shooting on the West Bank. (The killers seem to have been targeting settlers in general, not the Kahanes in particular; a Palestinian militant arrested in connection with the shooting said it was “luck” that they killed Binyamin Kahane.) The differences between Kach and Kahane Chai—which revolve around personal conflicts, not ideology—have eroded since Binyamin Kahane’s death, experts say.

Was Kach or Kahane Chai involved in the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin?

Not directly. Yigal Amir, who assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, was not a member of Kach or Kahane Chai. However, the assassin interacted with many Kahanists within Israel’s radical right and had contacts with a far-right Israeli group that is another offshoot of Kach. Binyamin Kahane would not condemn Rabin’s murder and said that “a person could understand Amir.”

Do Kach and Kahane Chai have supporters in the United States?

Yes. The State Department’s designation of the two groups as foreign terrorist organizations makes it illegal for Americans to fund them; nonetheless, U.S. officials suspect that Kach and Kahane Chai receive money from sympathizers in the United States and Europe. In January 2001, the FBI raided the headquarters of a Brooklyn group that maintains a Kahanist Web site in search of documents linking them with Kach or Kahane Chai. Some of Meir Kahane’s former associates remain active in the United States; in December 2001, two JDL leaders in California were charged with planning bomb attacks on a mosque, a Muslim advocacy organization, and the offices of an Arab-American congressman.

http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/kkc_print.html

[Overload]

Ophra, don't take it as a reply to you, because you have proven to be a troll; unless you have your own views to add, don't waste time replying to me because I will not answer flamebaits, insults, or any form of trolling. This is a discussion forum, if you don't know how to articulate or discuss your views, don't waste bandwidth by posting articles. We'll give you a call when we become interested in an automated news service.

[Ophra]

Ophra, don't take it as a reply to you, because you have proven to be a troll; unless you have your own views to add, don't waste time replying to me because I will not answer flamebaits, insults, or any form of trolling. This is a discussion forum, if you don't know how to articulate or discuss your views, don't waste bandwidth by posting articles. We'll give you a call when we become interested in an automated news service.

Gee thanks... was that a public service announcement ??

I have no idea what a troll is ......but I know a racist when I smell one.

......now don't go answering this whatever you do

[Overload]

Here is another general announcement then.

In the context of the Internet, a troll refers to a person who makes inflammatory or hostile comments, which by effect or design cause disruptions in discourse, or a post made by such a person.

You can find the rest here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

but you probably wont.

[Ophra]

Here is another general announcement then.

In the context of the Internet, a troll refers to a person who makes inflammatory or hostile comments, which by effect or design cause disruptions in discourse, or a post made by such a person.

You can find the rest here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

but you probably wont.

Oops you answered .... now why am I not surprised ??

The Brownshirts had similar ways of stopping free discourse .... * we have ways and means of making you shtock * ... LOL !!!!

[ernesto]

This Masterplan, whilst being vile, is absolutely unworkable.

You propose to invade Jordan. Prepostorous. The whole world is going to sit on their hands while Israel invades Jordan. Forget it.
You then are going to herd the Palestinians And Palestinian Israeli Arabs Sector by Sector through Palestine , through the sectors you have not cleansed yet. With the Palestinians looking on like lambs. What about militancy. Dont tell me you dont accept that absolute mayhem will erupt on day 1 and this will be your excuse to use a massive show of violence.
Your plan relies on the Palestinians resisting sooner rather than later and an example being made of that first sector to all others. Cmon, you know thats how it works.
So you invade Jordan then invade the Wast Bank and create a terrible onslaught against the first wave of resistance. What do you envisage Overload , to make a show grizzly enough too panic the innocent civilians into flight. 200-500 dead ? Would that do the trick? Would that get them running?
Your 17 point voluntary evacuation plan is a witless incitement to an all out Rwandan style massacre.
Dont talk nonsense with your absolute discipline in the ranks of the IDF. Hizbullah raining rockets into the North with half the Syrian army in toe and Jordan officially at war. Gaza busrting at the seems with Kassams. and the IDF behaving like the perfect gentlemen whilst they calmly encourage the Palestinian Arabs to be ethnically cleansed to a make shift camp on the far side of the Jordan. Your plan is nothing more than a proposal to put Israel to War against all its neighbours and to be expelled from the International Community entirely.
And this is your peace proposal?

Please bear one thiny detail of reality in mind before you go to instigate this scheme. The government of Israel is commited (in principle if nothing else) to the creation of a Palestinian State on Gaza and the WB and East Jerusalem. The soldiers you are planning to use for the encouragement process are already committed to encouraging the Jewish settlers to leave the Palestinian Territories. Hellooooo!!? You are living in a Fascist dreamworld (nightmare world). Enjoy your Eliyah Overload, but pls leave your crazy plan where it belongs in the mental home in CA.

[Overload]

This Masterplan, whilst being vile, is absolutely unworkable.

It is workable, it just needs the right conditions to be implemented. And what matters is its customability. If something doesn't work, then we use something else.

You propose to invade Jordan. Prepostorous. The whole world is going to sit on their hands while Israel invades Jordan. Forget it.

No, they are probably going to write strongly worded letters. If Israel doen't comply, they might underline a few lines in their next letter or bold a few words.

You then are going to herd the Palestinians And Palestinian Israeli Arabs Sector by Sector through Palestine , through the sectors you have not cleansed yet.

No no. Leaving the Israeli Arabs for last and after all other methods have been exhausted. First go the illegals residing in Israel, then the residents in eastern Jerusalem, then we buy property or offer bribes for the Palestinian Arabs in Judea and Samaria to leave. In the end we have a a reduced minority living throughout Judea and Samaria. After all incentive methods are exhausted, there is this method left. If it is necessary to use it, then it would be used, or another plan of a different nature with the same goals.

With the Palestinians looking on like lambs. What about militancy.

Palestinian terrorism would have to be severely quelled before this happens and any leadership eliminated. Once the IDF clamps down, evacuation can proceed in an orderly manner.

Dont tell me you dont accept that absolute mayhem will erupt on day 1 and this will be your excuse to use a massive show of violence.

Violence is always a possibility, but it depends on the ability of the IDF to control the situation.

Your plan relies on the Palestinians resisting sooner rather than later and an example being made of that first sector to all others. Cmon, you know thats how it works.

You just made that one up.

So you invade Jordan then invade the Wast Bank and create a terrible onslaught against the first wave of resistance.

If by resistance you mean wipe out the terrorist infestructure then yes. Dealing with Jordan would be trickier.

What do you envisage Overload , to make a show grizzly enough too panic the innocent civilians into flight. 200-500 dead ? Would that do the trick? Would that get them running?

Once again, you are making things up.

Your 17 point voluntary evacuation plan is a witless incitement to an all out Rwandan style massacre.

That's unfounded. Nowhere did I call for genocide against Palestinian Arabs. That would be utterly pointless, not to mention barbaric.

Dont talk nonsense with your absolute discipline in the ranks of the IDF.

The IDF are trained to deal with this and they are one of the best trained armies in the world.

Hizbullah raining rockets into the North with half the Syrian army in toe and Jordan officially at war.

Well, at least that is a realistic analysis of the situation. But lets look at the facts, Syria doesn't have an army, its equipment is from outdated Soviet times, most aren't even functioning. If they couldn't do anything when Soviet equipment was top of the line, they can't do anything when it is practically junk. Dealing with Hezbollah and Jordan would be trickier. Hezbollah would have to be suppressed by airforce. Anyways, whatever happens happens.

Gaza busrting at the seems with Kassams.

The idea is to take out the terrorists before any action is taken.

Your plan is nothing more than a proposal to put Israel to War against all its neighbours and to be expelled from the International Community entirely.

A war is coming anyways. It depends on whether it will be the war to end all wars in the future or another pointless conflict. Nobody is going to expel Israel from anything that it doesn't belong to anyways. Perhaps after all of this is over, Israel can be treated like a normal member.

And this is your peace proposal?

Please bear one thiny detail of reality in mind before you go to instigate this scheme. The government of Israel is commited (in principle if nothing else) to the creation of a Palestinian State on Gaza and the WB and East Jerusalem.

It doesn't matter what the government of Israel is committed too. Once it fails and it will, transfer will be the only solution on the table. I am not talking about the present, but 15 to 20 years down the line.

The soldiers you are planning to use for the encouragement process are already committed to encouraging the Jewish settlers to leave the Palestinian Territories.

At least Israel accepted transfer as an option, even if it is with Jewish citizens. It doesn't matter. Today Israel's sick government accepts that Arab states have to be Judenrein, tomorrow it will accept that if its ok for the Arabs to have states without Jews, its ok for the Jews to have a state without Arabs.

[ernesto]

Overload,

Israeli society can proceed without expanding into previously mandated territories.
Your land procurement plan is inconsistent with assumed clarity of purpose to consolidate an undisputed Jewish Homeland and, by evolution ,attain peace for the Jewish people. You advocate war.


Hope you dont go nuclear.

[Overload]

Overload,

Israeli society can proceed without expanding into previously mandated territories.

But it wouldn't be a particulary safe place to live. I'd rather have a buffer zone where Arabs don't mingle with Jews. All too often Israel seems like a fortress state, with Arabs seeping in at every crack. A strong Jewish state that controls Judea and Samaria and whatever other territory that comes from a defensive war is what I am after.

Your land procurement plan is inconsistent with assumed clarity of purpose to consolidate an undisputed Jewish Homeland and, by evolution ,attain peace for the Jewish people. You advocate war.

I advocate cutting the Gordian knot to the status quo. Something akin to Bismark. Whatever conflict happens, as long as it is benefitial in the long term for Israel is good.

Hope you dont go nuclear.

I do too.

[ernesto]

Heres a more realistic scenario.


The IDF invades Jordan and has to take over a sizeable chunk of the country to facilitate this tranferral as the best you can hope to do is set up concentration camps for the Palestinians as they will not be allowed to enter any other country. Your occupied Jordan will be a war zone with the Jordanian Army. You will have opened a new front for Hizbollah and Syria to attack down from Northern Jordan (Lebanon was already reinvaded before you even got across the river). You will have a couple of million Palis sitting in no-mans land caught in the crossfire, and waiting to be fed. You will have a humanitarian crisis of mammoth proportions. Gaza will be a 24 hour a day fireworks display.
Every Arab country around Israel will set up training camps for incoming militiants Al Qaeda Style. Lets face it , what you are proposing is Al-qaeda's wet dream come true. You will have constant frentic paramilitary activity on every border.
You will have suicide bombers walking into every Every jewish institute and synagogue in the world. There will be a complete economic embargo against Israel. I dare say the Arabs will simply stop producing oil. And after 5 years of crushing economic and military war you will find yourself in the exact same situation as you are now with a few more miles to colonise and at all out war with every country around. Hamstrung with economic sanctions, no seat at the UN and an Israel guaranteed a future of terrorism. Not to mention the civil unrest that will be tearing Israel apart from within throughout this whole process as every Arab Israeli and every normal Israeli Jew takes to the street to stop your madness.

In effect I would say you are proposing to pour a giant can of petrol onto Israel and chuck in a match.

[Mediocrates]

I like the idea of leaving them to their own devices and watching it degenerate into its own special calamity. Like Sudan except without all the colorful native costumes. Trust me, if there were no Israel there is not a single person on earth who would care about the Palestinians in Yesha, what happened to them or who they killed even where it is each other. There is a stream of thought in the diaspora that Jews can't exist w/o antisemitism. Interesting theory - whether you believe it or not it's what you see with the Palestinians. They cease to matter w/o Jews to blame it on and when they cease to matter they cease to exist.


When or if the peaceful peaceloving people of peace of Palistan get their own state-let you can count on two things happening:

A few million Palestinians will be expelled from every Arab nation and crammed on boats and buses for expatriation to their 'homeland'. The population of 'Palestine' swells by 2x. Things get a lot worse for them because all they are prepared to do is build homemade rockets, shoot at Israeli cars and steal from one another. Suddenly people aren't talking about 'liberation, freedom and destiny' any more. Suddenly the job of pushing all the Jews into the sea doesn't look so attainable. Civil unrest, food riots, mob rule takes over.

The western media folds up their satellite feeds and goes home. The UN slots the new nation 'Palestine' as just another basket case. Aid dries and up and the Palestinians have to scrape by like any other poor country with a failed government - on foreign debt; the World Bank, IMF, foreign lenders like the EU, etc. 'Palestine' starts to look more like an anarchic poor west African country than it does an authoritarian Arab country.

[orbit500]

"You then are going to herd the Palestinians And Palestinian Israeli Arabs Sector by Sector through Palestine , through the sectors you have not cleansed yet. With the Palestinians looking on like lambs. What about militancy. Dont tell me you dont accept that absolute mayhem will erupt on day 1 and this will be your excuse to use a massive show of violence."
Hmm, sounds familiar. Is it 1948 already ?

[Ghanbari]

Yes...Israel will be a house of peace when it is overtaken by Muslims...and the rest of the world will join Israel in peace when the nations submit to Islamic rule. A great day indeed! I alread saw that movie only it was called Return of the Sith.

Why is it that the Arabs got so much land after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Jews have to fight for a tiny little piece of our historic homeland and the Kurds got absolutely nothing? Everybody feels so guilty about not giving the Arabs (in particular the Muslim Arabs) even more land???? Suckers!

I agree with you but what can I say except that Jews should have half of the middle east and the other half should have went to the Kurds!
Then the europeans could have let the arabs to live in europe instead!

hey (europeans) gave away the land of the Jews and the Lands of the Kurds
so it would be right if they (the europeans) gvae away their land to the arabs!