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Thread: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

  1. #46
    Castoro
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    Quote Originally Posted by bararallu View Post
    If I remember correctly in a recent poll in Europe about Jews/Israel shows that only 20-25% of people have any theological issues with Jews. I haven't correlated that with how many actual religious people are left in Europe these days, esp Western Europe. I think on the issue of Israel there are Christian, and even Catholic supporters of Israel, and some of them are not very friendly toward Jews, and even Jews in their countries. It's an enemy of my enemy sort of situation.
    I didn't hear of this poll, and don't know exactly what is meant by having "theological issues with Jews". I don't think it's ment to be involved in Jewish-christian dialogue (?); rather to have a "theological connection" to Israel and the Jews?
    There are indeed Christians who support Israel only because of theological means - what is said in the Bible? that at the end of the days Jesus will come back to Jerusalem and than all who believe in him are saved? I think it's also said that only the Jews who have converted will be saved? or something like that …
    So they are very engaged in "saving" Jews, i.e. to convert them, possibly before the end of the days … these good Christians surely would deny to be the promoters of an "apocalyptic Holocaust". (I don't know if you mean this with "some of them are not very friendly toward Jews"?)
    I have no idea of how many Christians in Europe have such ideas about Israel and the Jews, I think in the USA there are much more of them, in particular the "evangelical christians"?

    (But I don't understand the "enemy of my enemy situation" - who is the common ennemy in this case? perhaps the Islam who wants to repossess Israel?)

    As for the number of "religious people in Europe these days", it's difficult (for me) to say something about it: in general they are in decline, in part already since the French Revolution and Enlightenment, but particularly these last decades (I don't know how much it has to do with WW II too), but on the other side "extremist groups" like the Pius Broderhood and many others are gaining supporters. Also in the Vatican, where they always had many supporters, but today they have the "courage" to openly tell their "opinions". I'm sure also Benedict supports their ideas, if he could he would reintroduce a sort of "catholic theocracy", he is now forming "coalitions" in this sense …

    And that's also the people who vote not only Le Pen, also in other countries many conservative catholics vote far right groups - but now the answer would become too long (is it already too long?)

    We've also had pretty good personal relationship with Italians, including my family that went through Rome coming from the USSR to the US, Israel and other places. A marked difference to what we felt in Vienna, where we also stayed for some weeks.

    and yes I'm Jewish/Israeli- not religious though.
    I'm glad you made good experiences with Italians, more specifically with Romans, but the Romans are the best people I know, I like them very much (I can't say why exactly). I'm of Northern Italy, and the people there are not bad too …

    Do you live in Israel now, or in the US? (if I may ask) - I've already been in Israel twice, but I spent more time at the Kotel than in Christian places …

  2. #47
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    Quote Originally Posted by Castoro View Post
    I didn't hear of this poll, and don't know exactly what is meant by having "theological issues with Jews". I don't think it's ment to be involved in Jewish-christian dialogue (?); rather to have a "theological connection" to Israel and the Jews?
    Castoro,

    It's one of the survey questions that I paraphrase. Here is the ADL survey, it's a PDF file.

    There are indeed Christians who support Israel only because of theological means - what is said in the Bible? that at the end of the days Jesus will come back to Jerusalem and than all who believe in him are saved? I think it's also said that only the Jews who have converted will be saved? or something like that …
    Yes, mostly Evangelical protestants.

    So they are very engaged in "saving" Jews, i.e. to convert them, possibly before the end of the days … these good Christians surely would deny to be the promoters of an "apocalyptic Holocaust". (I don't know if you mean this with "some of them are not very friendly toward Jews"?)
    Few are actively trying to convert Jews. The liberal Protestant churches are more engaged in this, along with Mormons, Jews for Jesus and smaller movements.

    I have no idea of how many Christians in Europe have such ideas about Israel and the Jews, I think in the USA there are much more of them, in particular the "evangelical christians"?
    23% average have theological issues. With Poland being #1. Italy and the Swiss haven't been surveyed in this round. Although this is disturbing.

    (But I don't understand the "enemy of my enemy situation" - who is the common ennemy in this case? perhaps the Islam who wants to repossess Israel?)
    Sometimes you don't need any enemies, but just common cultural values. I think between Italy and Israel, there are familiar cultural values (not identical of course but a large overlap). And they both differ substantially from political Islamic principles and Arab autocratic states.

    As for the number of "religious people in Europe these days", it's difficult (for me) to say something about it: in general they are in decline, in part already since the French Revolution and Enlightenment, but particularly these last decades (I don't know how much it has to do with WW II too), but on the other side "extremist groups" like the Pius Broderhood and many others are gaining supporters. Also in the Vatican, where they always had many supporters, but today they have the "courage" to openly tell their "opinions". I'm sure also Benedict supports their ideas, if he could he would reintroduce a sort of "catholic theocracy", he is now forming "coalitions" in this sense …
    yes we've had a couple of threads on the forum about this.

    And that's also the people who vote not only Le Pen, also in other countries many conservative catholics vote far right groups - but now the answer would become too long (is it already too long?)
    No, not at all. please post as you can.

    I'm glad you made good experiences with Italians, more specifically with Romans, but the Romans are the best people I know, I like them very much (I can't say why exactly). I'm of Northern Italy, and the people there are not bad too …
    Yeah we stayed in Ladispoli I think for 9 months. It was really great. Huge contrast with both Soviet Union and Austria.

    Do you live in Israel now, or in the US? (if I may ask) - I've already been in Israel twice, but I spent more time at the Kotel than in Christian places
    I was born in the Soviet Union (albeit most of my family is from Romania). I grew up in NY since I was a child. Worked in Western Europe/Uk for quite a few years, and made aliah (moved to Israel) in my late 20s. Most of my family moved to Israel rather than the US and elsewhere. Now I work in NY for an Israeli business. And shuttle back and forth every few months.

    Are you Jewish or Christian? I dont know too many Christians that go to the Kotel in Jerusalem.

  3. #48
    Castoro
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    Quote Originally Posted by bararallu View Post
    It's one of the survey questions that I paraphrase. Here is the ADL survey
    I took a glance at the poll.
    What I nearly can't believe is how many people still think the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. I thought that was medieval belief. The highest percentage of them im Poland, a mostly catholic country; Radio Maryja seems to do its work. I once read that because Poland was split between it's neighbours for a few hundreds of years, the Poles established their "unifying identity" through catholicism, and in part still do.

    Spain, an other predominantly catholic country, has other pretexts for hating the Jews, not so "theological" ones (more à la "Elders of Zion").

    Is this comparison between Poland and Spain not very significant?
    As it shows the continuity - if there was need - between the so called "Anti-judaism" of the Church and "Anti-semitism" of the Nazis (which the Vatican claims to be very different):
    In Poland, where religion is still very practised (I don't know if I can say catholicism there is more "primordial") Jews are hated more because of theological means. Spain who is more "enlightened" has more "rational" reasons: the Jews have too much power or are "bad Zionists".

    Sometimes you don't need any enemies, but just common cultural values. I think between Italy and Israel, there are familiar cultural values (not identical of course but a large overlap). And they both differ substantially from political Islamic principles and Arab autocratic states.
    Maybe you are right I think, although I see more or deeper alliances of the "enemy of my enemy" sort between the far right (and even between many "anti-Zionist" leftists) and the Islamists (with the Hamas charter in common).

    I was born in the Soviet Union (albeit most of my family is from Romania). I grew up in NY since I was a child. Worked in Western Europe/Uk for quite a few years, and made aliah (moved to Israel) in my late 20s. Most of my family moved to Israel rather than the US and elsewhere. Now I work in NY for an Israeli business. And shuttle back and forth every few months.
    A very "moved" life indeed. Was your family once forced to leave from somewhere, or is that perhaps difficult to say?

    Are you Jewish or Christian? I dont know too many Christians that go to the Kotel in Jerusalem.
    I was baptized catholic at an age I couldn't defend myself, but left the church about ten years ago, which I now deeply regret, so I can't leave now that Benedict is "in power".
    Once at least I respected christians who really live their faith, but today I'm loosing this respect too (in part). Since I learnt how much the church had to do with the Holocaust, at least at its "highest levels", I hardly can distinguish between a christian cross and a swastika. So in Jerusalem I made short and rather "reluctant" visits to christian places, for historical or cultural interest, but than always ended up at the Kotel …

  4. #49
    savvy
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    I took a glance at the poll.
    What I nearly can't believe is how many people still think the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. I thought that was medieval belief. The highest percentage of them im Poland, a mostly catholic country; Radio Maryja seems to do its work. I once read that because Poland was split between it's neighbours for a few hundreds of years, the Poles established their "unifying identity" through catholicism, and in part still do.
    Radio Maryja and the Polish National Church is another breakaway sect, not in union with Rome. Hence their members are not "officially" Catholic, even if they claim otherwise.

    Once at least I respected christians who really live their faith, but today I'm loosing this respect too (in part). Since I learnt how much the church had to do with the Holocaust, at least at its "highest levels", I hardly can distinguish between a christian cross and a swastika. So in Jerusalem I made short and rather "reluctant" visits to christian places, for historical or cultural interest, but than always ended up at the Kotel …
    Castoro, Pave the Way Foundation is an American organization that studies Vatican secret archives pertaining to WW2. It would be worth it for you to take a look at them.

    http://www.pavethewayfoundation.org/NewsAndEvents/

  5. #50
    Castoro
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    Quote Originally Posted by savvy View Post
    Radio Maryja and the Polish National Church is another breakaway sect, not in union with Rome. Hence their members are not "officially" Catholic, even if they claim otherwise.
    A "breakaway sect, not in union with Rome"?
    Radio Maryja belongs to the Redemptionist order, which is not at all "another breakaway sect". This order is under direct control of the Vatican; it is a catholic order who was admitted by the Vatican (to be constituited within the catholic church an order needs the approbation of the pope resp. of the Vatican).

    That the Redemptionists are not under "jurisdiction" of the Vatican is merely an excuse the supporters of Radio Maryja always preach, and the Vatican doesn't contraddict for it's own reasons (not to loose these devoted flock I think).
    They were only dispensed by the pope to obbey the local bishops; they have to respond directly to the Vatican (a very strong union with Rome indeed).

    The "jurisdiction excuse" sounds as if you would say that a disobbedient monk can't be admonished by the Vatican because his direct superior is his abbot (nonsense!).

    So the pope has indeed not only a voice in the matter, he is THE authority …

    Castoro, Pave the Way Foundation is an American organization that studies Vatican secret archives pertaining to WW2. It would be worth it for you to take a look at them.

    http://www.pavethewayfoundation.org/NewsAndEvents/
    No thanks.
    This "foundation" protects Benedict from the "assaults" by the media etc. (in the case of Williamson now). If their "dialogue" with the Vatican is to confirm that Pius XII. was a saint and that to readmit Williamson was not so bad after all … ok, but in these terms I don't want do dialogue with them. (I'm as bad as the Jews who refuse dialogue …).

  6. #51
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    Quote Originally Posted by Castoro View Post
    I took a glance at the poll.
    What I nearly can't believe is how many people still think the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. I thought that was medieval belief. The highest percentage of them im Poland, a mostly catholic country; Radio Maryja seems to do its work. I once read that because Poland was split between it's neighbours for a few hundreds of years, the Poles established their "unifying identity" through catholicism, and in part still do.
    True. Poland is founded in it's Catholicism as a national virtue, a historic bulwark against German protestantism, Russian Orthodoxy and Czech heresy. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with that. But it can run away like all ethnocentric belief systems. And as my grandfather was keen on saying, there are no good outcomes leaving a cat with a large abused dog. Cats being Jews, gypsies and so on.

    Spain, an other predominantly catholic country, has other pretexts for hating the Jews, not so "theological" ones (more à la "Elders of Zion").
    Spain, that is the post expulsion Spain, was the founding spot of ethno aka racial (as primitive as the concept was back then) anti-Semitism. That is what they exercised against "new Christians".

    Is this comparison between Poland and Spain not very significant?
    Both are respectively the most anti-Semitic countries in Europe, West and East. Poland is more readily understandable to me, since I'm from Eastern Europe. Spain however is a special case. Very much opposite IMO from Italy, but in close proximity to Greece. It is a less successful country, one that is very embittered at some level. Whether it was the civil war or modernity, it's politics vacillate greatly.

    As it shows the continuity - if there was need - between the so called "Anti-judaism" of the Church and "Anti-semitism" of the Nazis (which the Vatican claims to be very different): In Poland, where religion is still very practised (I don't know if I can say catholicism there is more "primordial") Jews are hated more because of theological means. Spain who is more "enlightened" has more "rational" reasons: the Jews have too much power or are "bad Zionists".
    I think there has been a lot of cross pollination, of racism, of theological hate, of conspiracy theory and of pretty hard leftist politics (compliments of the Soviet Union) that amounts to todays averaged opinion.

    Maybe you are right I think, although I see more or deeper alliances of the "enemy of my enemy" sort between the far right (and even between many "anti-Zionist" leftists) and the Islamists (with the Hamas charter in common).
    You are not wrong on that. I would agree. I would further say that it's in the far right's interest to build up the Islamists in perception and in fact. It is an ideology driven by xenophobia after all.

    A very "moved" life indeed. Was your family once forced to leave from somewhere, or is that perhaps difficult to say?
    My extended family left the SU as Zionists voluntarily. Most of them even with choices moved to Israel. Some, like my immediate family did not. No one in the States made us move. We were always connected to our roots and our people. And when opportunity presented itself we moved, some partially and some fully. Like a few other Americans and Jews from other 1st world countries.

    I was baptized catholic at an age I couldn't defend myself, but left the church about ten years ago, which I now deeply regret, so I can't leave now that Benedict is "in power".
    Well I had my Brit Milah (religious based circumcision) at 8yo. I think it was worth it lol. Albeit I am an atheist, and consider myself an ethnic-cultural Jew.

    Once at least I respected christians who really live their faith, but today I'm loosing this respect too (in part). Since I learnt how much the church had to do with the Holocaust, at least at its "highest levels", I hardly can distinguish between a christian cross and a swastika. So in Jerusalem I made short and rather "reluctant" visits to christian places, for historical or cultural interest, but than always ended up at the Kotel …
    Well thanks for your candor. If it makes any difference I'd like to say that Catholics, and Muslims, and many others, can be good as well as evil. The motivations vary. The 3rd Reich was not Christian. Pol Pot was not Muslim. There is plenty of range of peoples motivations, even about the people of Poland and Spain, Iran and Palestine.

  7. #52
    Madeline
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    Quote Originally Posted by Semsem View Post
    Thanks. I signed. It's absalutely disgusting. The Christian Churches have been persecuting, burning, killing, bashing Jews for 2,000 years. It will never stop.
    Please do not confuse the United Church of Christ with anything resembling Christianity. Most true Christians are as upset with them as you are.
    It is not Christians who persecute Jews, but some power hungry, misguided, antisemitic barbarians.

    Please!

  8. #53
    Madeline
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    "I took a glance at the poll.
    What I nearly can't believe is how many people still think the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ."


    We have been through this before, and it is a misconception. Those who are biblical Christians know that Christ died for all our sin. Those who blame Christ's fellow Jews don't know the first thing about the Gospel.
    So, when you say many people, please re-phrase it as 'many ignorant people".

    ( I hope that isn't seen as preaching?)

  9. #54
    savvy
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    A "breakaway sect, not in union with Rome"?
    Radio Maryja belongs to the Redemptionist order, which is not at all "another breakaway sect". This order is under direct control of the Vatican; it is a catholic order who was admitted by the Vatican (to be constituited within the catholic church an order needs the approbation of the pope resp. of the Vatican).

    That the Redemptionists are not under "jurisdiction" of the Vatican is merely an excuse the supporters of Radio Maryja always preach, and the Vatican doesn't contraddict for it's own reasons (not to loose these devoted flock I think).
    They were only dispensed by the pope to obbey the local bishops; they have to respond directly to the Vatican (a very strong union with Rome indeed).

    The "jurisdiction excuse" sounds as if you would say that a disobbedient monk can't be admonished by the Vatican because his direct superior is his abbot (nonsense!).

    So the pope has indeed not only a voice in the matter, he is THE authority …
    Conflict with Vatican
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja

    The Vatican has voiced deep concern about Radio Maryja[38]. The papal nuncio in Poland, Archbishop Józef Kowalczyk, wrote to the Polish Episcopate requesting their aid "to overcome difficulties caused by some transmissions and the views presented by Radio Maryja".[23] In response in May 2006 Polish bishops established an oversight body, a Cooperative Unit for Pastoral Care of Radio Maryja (headed by bishop Sławoj Leszek GłÃ³dź). Some Polish bishops support the Reverend Rydzyk, and "thanked for the great evangelizing work conducted by Radio Maryja"[39]. Also a group of Polish Sejm deputies and EuroMPs addressed an open letter to the chair of the Episcopate of Poland concerning "protection for Radio Maryja"[39]. The controversial Father Director remains the head of Radio Maryja and the radio has ignored the warning from the Vatican ambassador[40].

    Several Polish bishops had criticized Radio Maryja for spreading opinions incompatible with the official Episcopate's stand[41]. Critics note that the Polish Episcopate has been divided over Radio Maryja for a long time[42]. Media speculated that the Roman Catholic Church in Poland might be heading for a schism[43]. An imaginary breakaway church led by the Reverend Rydzyk has been named "The Rydzyk Church of Poland"[44], an ironic expression, or the "Toruń-Catholic Church" (in Polish: kościół toruńsko-katolicki). In Poland the latter term is sometimes used to refer to the ideology of Radio Maryja in general.

    Bishop Tadeusz Pieronek, the former secretary general of the Episcopate of Poland, said that Radio Maryja is "a real and growing problem", it "offers a reduced view on Christianity" and "is extremely compromising and shameful, sick and dangerous".[26] According to the official Vatican web page: "Radio Maryja (...) became much more involved in spreading risky politics than in spreading the Gospel[45]."

    Support for death penalty

    Radio Maryja promoted the political program of Law and Justice, a Polish conservative party, which together with the League of Polish Families sought to introduce capital punishment in Poland and throughout Europe[50]. The support of Radio Maryja for the death penalty contrasts strongly with the mainstream teachings of the Roman Catholic Church[51
    Episcopate warns Radio Maryja on 'political broadcasting’

    http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica...ykul33074.html

    A letter has been sent from the Vatican through its nuncio in Poland asking Polish Church authorities to intervene in the activity of the highly controversial, ultra-Catholic, Radio Maryja
    http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica...ykul35159.html


    No thanks.
    This "foundation" protects Benedict from the "assaults" by the media etc. (in the case of Williamson now). If their "dialogue" with the Vatican is to confirm that Pius XII. was a saint and that to readmit Williamson was not so bad after all … ok, but in these terms I don't want do dialogue with them. (I'm as bad as the Jews who refuse dialogue …).
    The President is Jewish. Their job is to investigate the facts, and then report it to Yad Vashem, Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem.

    Yad Vashem, the holocaust memorial in Jerusalem, has asked us to provide them with all of the information possible so that they can further carry out their mission of reporting this dark time in history with absolute accuracy as it has always been their policy.
    http://www.ptwf.org/Projects/Educati...Pius%20XII.htm

    BTW, Williamson has not been re-admitted. His ordination is still illegal and the SSPX has no authority to carry out any clerical duties and is still not in union with Rome. It only opens the way for talks, which may or may not succeed.

    I am in favour of ex-communicating ALL dissidents on the far-right and the far-left, if they don't get they're act together. Enough is Enough! We can then go back to being a tiny number like the early days of Christianity and start all over again.
    Last edited by savvy; 03-01-2009 at 03:36 PM.

  10. #55
    savvy
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    And Madeline, Thanks for your support. It's true the ignorant crazies on the right and the left, pretend to speak for us. This is very frustrating!

  11. #56
    Castoro
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    @ Madeline
    @ savvy

    I will say three short things - as I have no time to respond more in detail:

    1. Deicide charge
    The deicide charge was "forbidden" only with the 2nd Vaticanum in 1965, and only in the aftermath of the Holocaust. Before that it was a very usual charge within the (official) catholic church - so it's you who call the Vatican and all catholics "ignorant crazies" (on the right or the left?)

    2. Radio Maryja
    It doesn't interest me how much it was spoken and admonished by people who have ultimately nothing to say in the matter. The pope has the authority to prohibit their further "spreading risky politics", but never did, and that is what counts.

    3. Pius XII. (and Yad Vashem)
    Ok, let them investigate, I'm very curious what they will find.
    But you know that Yad Vashem as all people interested in the truth will not accept new "versions" if the investigators are not independent historians who have access to all of the secret archives (now they are open only until 1938, Pius XI. death).

    P.S. There are people I estimate very much within the (catholic) church, as John XXIII., but also Pius XI. although at the beginning he supported fascism, and many others.

    And @bararallu: Thank you for your reply, but: no time in these next days

  12. #57
    Madeline
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    @Castoro..Catholic does not equal Christian necessarily. Just food for thought..if I understood your comment correctly.

  13. #58
    savvy
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    1. Deicide charge
    The deicide charge was "forbidden" only with the 2nd Vaticanum in 1965, and only in the aftermath of the Holocaust. Before that it was a very usual charge within the (official) catholic church - so it's you who call the Vatican and all catholics "ignorant crazies" (on the right or the left?)
    Deicide was never an official teaching, but always a heresy. The Cathecism of the Council of Trent in the 15 century, long before Vatican 2, taught :

    Besides, to increase the dignity of this mystery, Christ not only suffered for sinners, but even for those who were the very authors and ministers of all the torments He endured. Of this the Apostle reminds us in these words addressed to the Hebrews: Think diligently upon him that endured such opposition from sinners against himself; that you be not wearied, fainting in your minds. In this guilt are involved all those who fall frequently into sin; This guilt seems more enormous in us than in the Jews, since according to the testimony of the same Apostle: If they had know for, as our sins consigned Christ the Lord to the death of the cross, most certainly those who wallow in sin and iniquity crucify to themselves again the Son of God, as far as in them lies, and make a mockery of Him it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory; while we, on the contrary, professing to know Him, yet denying Him by our actions, seem in some sort to lay violent hands on him.

    Vatican 2 was a pastoral council, not a dogmatic one. It did not teach new doctrine.

    2. Radio Maryja
    It doesn't interest me how much it was spoken and admonished by people who have ultimately nothing to say in the matter. The pope has the authority to prohibit their further "spreading risky politics", but never did, and that is what counts.
    Read Cannon law. The Vatican is not a one man show. Since this is not an ex-cathedra decree, the Bishops at the Vatican hold equal authority to condemn Radio Marja.

    3. Pius XII. (and Yad Vashem)
    Ok, let them investigate, I'm very curious what they will find.
    But you know that Yad Vashem as all people interested in the truth will not accept new "versions" if the investigators are not independent historians who have access to all of the secret archives (now they are open only until 1938, Pius XI. death).
    I agree, there are 16 million volumes, it will take time to uncover everything.

    P.S. There are people I estimate very much within the (catholic) church, as John XXIII., but also Pius XI. although at the beginning he supported fascism, and many others.
    Strange, Pius XI first pastoral document was against facism.

  14. #59
    Y. Shulamith
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    I cannot be bothered with idiots like these.....they are marginal people with marginal brains and marginal appeal to any reasonable person.

  15. #60
    savvy
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    Re: Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

    I cannot be bothered with idiots like these.....they are marginal people with marginal brains and marginal appeal to any reasonable person.
    __________________
    Well said!

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