Top Lawyer Urges Death For Families Of Bombers

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by StephenNichols
L@mplighterM:


That's pretty funny. No lobotomy. Just a conscious choice to demonstrate my deep respect for life and unconditional love for other people. That's all. I know it's hard to understand, but there it is!

steve

You talk about deep respect for other people yet I see bias in all your posts and/or articles. Why is that?

A true pacifist lives only in a state where there is no right or wrong and you?re nowhere near there.

You seem confused to me. You might believe that you're a pacifist but you?re not.

What specifically are you trying to achieve with your posts?

[StephenNichols]

L@mplighterM:

You see bias where there is none. I have ideas as to what I believe would make a difference in these situations, yet I am not biased against any group involved. I do not see either group as right or wrong here. I do believe that killing is wrong for me, but I do not judge others because of it. Honest.

The bias you see is my attempt to articulate the views of the side that opposes you. I'm playing devil's advocate here. There is little need for me to reiterate your own views to you. So, I'm focusing on making arguments from the side that you do not share views with. I do not support Israel over the Palestinians, nor do I support Palestinians over Israel.

What am I trying to achieve with my posts? Well, at first, I was interested in trying to pursuade some of the staunchly pro-Israel people on this board to give creedence to the Palestinian viewpoint through rational discussion. I've since come to realize that such a goal is unachievable. So, instead, I've decided to share my spiritual view of the world, hoping that someone will find value in a peace-oriented mindset. Perhaps my ideas will inspire someone to think first of peace instead of war, even if only for a moment.

I wonder how you get from my posts that I am not a pacifist. Nowhere have I endorsed violence as a means to solving any problem. Is that not what a pacifist is? Isn't a pacifist someone that does not support violence as a means to solve disputes? And, being resolved not to use violence does not preclude making value judgements about what happens in the world. For example, I would never kill a child rapist but I believe that raping children is wrong. Even though I have my own judgements as to what I believe is right and wrong for me, I do realize that my ideas of right and wrong are not absolute -- they are just value judgements. I do not endorse forcing my values on others, but I will happily discuss my ideas and beliefs with others.

The truth is that ultimately neither side is right or wrong in this conflict. There is only what we choose to label as good and bad. Israel thinks that the Palestinians are bad. The Palestinians think that Israel is bad. It's all a matter of perspective. Both sides are equally responsible for the continuation of this conflict -- both sides continually make the choices necessary to perpetuate this war.

Even so, the war can end. All it takes is the determination to realize peace instead of war. Endless justification of past actions will make no difference. What is needed is peace. Love cannot be intolerant, it does not know how. Intolerance breeds aggression. Fear gives birth to intolerance. Defeat your fear and you will see that peace is right before your eyes. It is not in some far off place, it's right in front of you. All you must do is choose it.

steve

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by StephenNichols
You see bias where there is none. I have ideas as to what I believe would make a difference in these situations, yet I am not biased against any group involved. I do not see either group as right or wrong here. I do believe that killing is wrong for me, but I do not judge others because of it. Honest.

There's another one put on ignore! Now I no longer see your posts!

[StephenNichols]

There's another one put on ignore! Now I no longer see your posts!

Ahh, yes... It's easier to ignore someone that disagrees with you rather than engage in discussion. Your views are important to me, but I understand why you'd rather not discuss the issues. It's a shame that we can't learn more from each other...

steve

[Mediocrates]

I do not see either group as right or wrong here. I do believe that killing is wrong for me, but I do not judge others because of it. Honest.


Then isn't that the death of all debate anyway? IF there is no difference between right and wrong, between success and failure then what's the difference what you wind up with?

[StephenNichols]

Mediocrates:

I guess it could be the end of all debate if we chose for it to be. But, as I said, just because I don't believe that there is an absolute right and wrong doesn't stop me from deciding what I choose to call right and wrong. Debate is good, because it helps to spread ideas. Just because I believe that violence is not a reasonable solution to conflict does not mean that I don't care about what's going on. I do. That's why I'm posting on these boards. That's why I have a web site to disseminate my ideas. Debate is good.

And, of course, it ultimately does not matter what we do or what the outcome is. But, that fact does not change my desire to affect change that promotes peace in my lifetime. What else should I do?

steve

[Mediocrates]

What else should I do?

Take a stand. There might be nothing worth living for but there are sure as hell some things worth dying for.

[StephenNichols]

Mediocrates:

Take a stand. There might be nothing worth living for but there are sure as hell some things worth dying for.

I am taking a stand -- I'm just not choosing sides. I stand for peace, not war. I stand for love, not fear. I stand for life, not death. There is always a choice besides killing to solve problems. Always.

steve

[rhodescholar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StephenNichols
[B]Rhodescholar:

"If you think by insulting me repeatedly that you're going to anger me or hurt my feelings, you're mistaken. "

Actually, if i wanted to insult you, u would know it. And taunting only shows that u r either an anti-semite, or a troll. Which is it?

"So, you actually teach your children to beat the **** out of anyone that messes with them? Or, better yet, to kill them? I find that hard to believe. But, if it's true, I wonder how well they get along with others."

Yes, i teach them when faced with someone who refuses to negotiate, and only wants to destroy them, to strike back with fury. As any rational person would, except chamberlain-thinking fools like you.

"There is a military occupation going on."

Over 90% of the pals are under PA authority. Try bringing facts to the table. Ignoring them doesnt help u win points, just proves your ignorance.

"Israel and the Palestinians are engaged in a seemingly endless cycle of attack and counter-attack."

LOL. The US crushed a naiton after one attack, and israel has faced HUNDREDS OF THE SAME ATTACKS, BUT HAS NEVER RESPONDED IN KIND, TO THEIR DETRIMENT.

"You're attempting to justify it by talking about Arab programs."

Oh i see, the long history of arab murders of jewish women and children should just be forgotten, just like the arafat apologists try to get ppl to do about his murderous history? I REMEMBER, AND ALWAYS WILL. Sorry, but i cant brush aside the FACT that the arabs have been killing and advocating the murder of jews for 100 years.

"And, I really can't blame you for doing so."

You s/h stopped there.

"However, you will not find peace with the Palestinians through killing."

No, but i will stop them from TRYING to kill my citizenry, which is the point. Get it?

"Do you teach your children that as well?"

No, thats something the arabs do to their own children, which u seem to gloss over of course.

"It's always the Arabs. The Arabs! The Arabs!"

Since it is a known FACT that they started every war against israel, it is the arabs, right?

"They're making us kill them! We're remote control killing drones!! Nonsense. Israel can choose NOT to kill at any time."

You sound like a writer for the ADC.

"I never said that the occupation was the start of the violence between Arabs and Jews."

Yes u did.

"I was referring to when Israel was formed (1947/1948), and the ensuing violence."

And did the arabs not launch an all-out assault of extermination after israel ACCEPTED the UN partition? Does history or the facts irritate u that much?

"Many wars around the world have many, many civilian casualties. War is a dirty business... and civilians are just as valid a target as soldiers."

BWAAAAHAAA!!!! Now suddenly its ok, to kill civilians? And according to my last reading of the Geneva conventions (the fourth), it isnt ok. Once again, your ignorance exposed for all to see.

"The US supports this very strategy through the sanctions against Iraq. Those sanctions are responsible for killing over 1,000,000 Iraqi civilians. Do you call the US a terrorist state? If not, you're a hypocrite."

ROTFLMAO!!! U r a zero, plain and simple. The FACT that Saddam has built HUNDREDS of palaces for himself and sent millions in weapons and blood money to the families of suicide bombers doesnt count either, right? Go buy a newspaper, please.

"Killing civilians or soldiers is unrequired and unproductive, but war is war."

Another trap u set for yrself. since israel and the pals are at war, then the so-called "military occupation" is more than justified, right? LOL, u r too funny, and too clueless.

"The fact is that the Palestinian militants see suicide bombings as a reasonable tactic. Your quotes of other nations and how they behave have nothing to do with it."

Why is that?

"The latest incursions into Palestinian territory has done nothing to curb the killing."

Wrong.

"I would love to see the Palestinians denounce attacks and sue for peace in a non-violent way. "

I wont hold my breath, but i hope u do.

"But they are not doing that. So, logic tells you that they must believe suicide attacks are an effective way of getting what they want. I am just observing what is so."

You couldnt observe a tidal wave if u were on the poseiden adventure.

"What's so interesting is how violently you attack me for stating my opinion on these matters."

I attack u because you lie and obscure the facts and history, like other anti-semites who hide behind their criticism of israel.

[rhodescholar]

Nichols -

"If you came to my home, I would set a place at my table for you. If you took a dump on my
floor, I would clean it up. If you destroyed my possessions, I would forgive you. This is
because I do not care about my temporary home or possessions. These things are not
all-important to me. I can find another home. I can get another television. But I cannot get
another Iori Yagami. You are that important to me... I do not know you, but I love you. I would
give you the shirt off my back if you needed it. "

Yes it would be a nice world if everyoen thought that way, but they dont. And given the hard lessons the Nazis taught the pacifists in the 1930s and 40s, and what the arabs have taught the world over the past 100 years, it astounds me that there are any left.

The nazis/arabs would love for the world to have more fools like you, and would laugh as they shoot you and your family, and step over your corpse. Fortunately, most rational ppl in this world learned that there is a cost for freedom, for living in an open environment that allows ppl like you to come forth with your absurd ideas, and it must be defended with force from time to time.

For there are many who would gladly come to take your freedom from you, unless you are willing to fight and defend it.

[StephenNichols]

RhodeScholar:

Actually, if i wanted to insult you, u would know it. And taunting only shows that u r either an anti-semite, or a troll. Which is it?

Your postings are nothing but attempts to insult me. But, honestly, that's okay -- your words are unable to hurt me. Even though I do not know you RhodeScholar, I love you too.

It's interesting how many Jews automatically claim that someone is an anti-Semite whenever their views are questioned. I am not an anti-Semite. Nor am I an anti-Arab.

Yes, i teach them when faced with someone who refuses to negotiate, and only wants to destroy them, to strike back with fury. As any rational person would, except chamberlain-thinking fools like you.

That's a rational view, if you value your life over the life of another. However, I do not share that view. Striking back with fury may save your life, but it will not bring you -- or your children -- peace.

Over 90% of the pals are under PA authority. Try bringing facts to the table. Ignoring them doesnt help u win points, just proves your ignorance.

It does not matter what percentage of the Palestinians are under PA authority. There is still a military occupation going on. I find it astounding that you would even try to dismiss that universally known fact.

LOL. The US crushed a naiton after one attack, and israel has faced HUNDREDS OF THE SAME ATTACKS, BUT HAS NEVER RESPONDED IN KIND, TO THEIR DETRIMENT.

I believe that the US response to the September 11th attacks was uncalled for. We have done nothing to improve our relations with the populations that give birth to those that hate us. Given all our military might, we will not be able to stop individuals that would do us harm. It is a good thing that Israel has not performed such a retaliation for attacks they have suffered. Sadly, I believe that their restraint has more to do with US/Western pressure than the desires of the Israeli military and government.

Oh i see, the long history of arab murders of jewish women and children should just be forgotten, just like the arafat apologists try to get ppl to do about his murderous history? I REMEMBER, AND ALWAYS WILL. Sorry, but i cant brush aside the FACT that the arabs have been killing and advocating the murder of jews for 100 years.

No, don't forget the murders of the past. But, don't use them as justification for your own murders of the future. Keeping your blinders on and focusing on these justifications does nothing to stop the cycle of violence and killing.

No, but i will stop them from TRYING to kill my citizenry, which is the point. Get it?

You will stop some, that is true. But you will not stop them all. Suicide attacks in Israel are continuing. Terrorists are still planning and operating in the United States. A free and open society cannot close itself tight enough to stop all such violence.

No, thats something the arabs do to their own children, which u seem to gloss over of course.

I was not discussing the patterns of Arab child-rearing. I was responding to your post, where you seemingly are in favor of killing all Arabs. I was simply wondering if you were teaching that to your kids as well.

Since it is a known FACT that they started every war against israel, it is the arabs, right?

There must be a reason why the Arabs went to war when Israel was formed. Perhaps they did not agree with the colonization that took place to create the state of Israel. Perhaps they wanted to stop Israel from being formed on what they consider to be their land. Or, as I'm sure you'd say, they attacked Israel because they wanted to kill every Jew in the place. Of course, that can be debated. If the Arab states wanted to kill all the Jews, then they would have gone to all-out war with the soon-to-be state of Israel before they were strong enough to defend themselves.

That being said, you are right when you say that the local Arab nations started the large-scale wars. There's no disputing that. What I have to add is that the Arabs have some thought process that led them to start the violence.

"I never said that the occupation was the start of the violence between Arabs and Jews."

Yes u did.

Prove it.

BWAAAAHAAA!!!! Now suddenly its ok, to kill civilians? And according to my last reading of the Geneva conventions (the fourth), it isnt ok. Once again, your ignorance exposed for all to see.

No, it's not okay. But it does happen. It happens all the time, in every war. There is not a single war where civilians are not killed. I was simply questioning your idea that targeting civilians automatically makes you a "terrorist". Any time a soldier fires a weapon in an area that has civilians, they are intentionally endangering the lives of said civilians. They may be trying to kill someone else, but they are still endangering and killing civilians as well.

ROTFLMAO!!! U r a zero, plain and simple. The FACT that Saddam has built HUNDREDS of palaces for himself and sent millions in weapons and blood money to the families of suicide bombers doesnt count either, right? Go buy a newspaper, please.

So what? Saddam does not have the best interests of his people at heart when he spends money. What else is new in the world? Should we also condemn our leaders that do little to help the starving in our own country? They too are busy sending weapons and support to other nations.

The truth is that Iraq was a thriving country with a strong economy before Desert Storm. We destroyed a large amount of that country and then enacted crippling sanctions that keep the people of Iraq impoverished. Saddam, the supposed target of these sanctions, is still in power. The civilians are the people that suffer and die because of our actions -- not the "evil" regime. It's a fact that hundreds of thousands of civilians have needlessly died because of our sanctions against Iraq. That's an undisputed fact. Under the Clinton administration, Madeline Albright was asked about the humaneness of these sanctions and she said that it was worth it to protect our nation. That sums it up right there. It's okay for us to kill countless innocent civilians in another nation so long as we are safe. Our sanctions target these civilians directly. Does that not make us terrorists too?

I attack u because you lie and obscure the facts and history, like other anti-semites who hide behind their criticism of israel.

Call me an anti-Semite all you like. Call me a troll at your leisure. Label me a "Jew hater" and a "fool" and a "liar" as you see fit. Such insults do not speak to the core of the issue, nor do they harm me.

Peace does not come from violence. It never will. Violence begets violence. Killing begets killing. You know this is true, but you still hold on to the idea that killing is good. You know this is true, but you still advocate war to peace. The way to peace is love, acceptance and understanding. The way to peace is love of all people. The way to peace is acceptance of all beliefs. The way to peace is understanding of all motivations. This is the way to peace. You will never understand this until you have dealt with your own fears, anger and hate.

steve

[StephenNichols]

RhodeScholar:

Yes it would be a nice world if everyoen thought that way, but they dont. And given the hard lessons the Nazis taught the pacifists in the 1930s and 40s, and what the arabs have taught the world over the past 100 years, it astounds me that there are any left.

The nazis/arabs would love for the world to have more fools like you, and would laugh as they shoot you and your family, and step over your corpse. Fortunately, most rational ppl in this world learned that there is a cost for freedom, for living in an open environment that allows ppl like you to come forth with your absurd ideas, and it must be defended with force from time to time.

For there are many who would gladly come to take your freedom from you, unless you are willing to fight and defend it.

There is no proof that deciding not to kill one another to solve disputes does not work. We do it every day. Our very nation is an exercise in cooperation without violence. It is doable. All it takes is agreeing not to go to war.

I believe the best defense is a good offense. Not a violent offense as you would adovcate, but a peaceful one. Why not peacefully engage these developing nations that have such an anti-American sentiment. Their hate is not unjustified. We have, through our actions, caused them to hate us. We can do much to dispel the hate that they have for us simply by reversing the very behaviors that they find so distasteful.

The very same is true for Israel.

Ignore it all you like. Pretend that war and killing will bring peace. It will not. It never does. One day, perhaps, you will see how close peace is to us all. We merely have to reach out and grab it.

steve

[L@mplighterM]

If anyone dumped on my floor I’d make him eat it!

[Mediocrates]

A free and open society cannot close itself tight enough to stop all such violence.


But if you think the alternative is submission that is wrong as well. Why do you find it so hard to believe that terrorists act in the advance of terrorism in and of itself. It's about power. The goals are irrelevant - that's just something you use to get new recruits. Appeasing does nothing to fix that and makes oneself more vulnerable.

If the Arab states wanted to kill all the Jews, then they would have gone to all-out war with the soon-to-be state of Israel before they were strong enough to defend themselves.

They tried to but failed. They tried in 48-49, 56, 60-62, 67, 69-70, 72-73, 82-84, 00-now in varying degrees of severity. That they have been unable is more representative of their abilities than their intent.

It's funny - I was watching a travel show recently and they were talking about the Arch of Tiberius and why it was built by the Romans to commemorate their glorious destruction of Judea. On the arch is all forms of Judaica like menorah and torah scrolls. This was a great day for the Empire. I thought that they left out the most important aspect: I, a Jew has to read about Tiberius in a history book and their empire is dust. But we are not.

[StephenNichols]

Mediocrates:

I like you. You actually bring up relevant and well-considered responses instead of resorting to name-calling.

But if you think the alternative is submission that is wrong as well. Why do you find it so hard to believe that terrorists act in the advance of terrorism in and of itself. It's about power. The goals are irrelevant - that's just something you use to get new recruits. Appeasing does nothing to fix that and makes oneself more vulnerable.

This is an excellent point. Thanks for raising it.

I believe that these terrorists have a reason for their actions. Perhaps it's just a struggle for power, but I feel that would be too simple an explanation. Power is part of it... they want something more than they have. But their anger has a reason. They are attacking the US and Israel for what they feel are rational reasons. There are things that both the US and Israel have done to anger these people.

You're also right to point out that submission is not going to solve the problem. I'm not suggesting submission. I am suggesting that killing will do nothing but continue the violence. Bring the terrorists to justice. Arrest them. Put them in jail. Work with the societies that produce these terrorists and help them to improve. Remove the fertile conditions that allow terrorists to flourish. Befriend these societies, instead of punishing them for their individual "bad apples". Such actions are not submissive, they are proactive. And, as these socieites come to realize our good intentions through our works, they will come to befriend us as well. Killing and violence will not undermine the ideas and attitudes that create terrorists. Friendship, love, acceptance and understanding will.

Look to the future 100 years from now. Is what we're doing now going to fundamentally change the predisposition to war that we all seem to have? We need to address the issues that cause hatred and inequality in the world. These problems are solvable, but not with guns and bombs.

They tried to but failed. They tried in 48-49, 56, 60-62, 67, 69-70, 72-73, 82-84, 00-now in varying degrees of severity. That they have been unable is more representative of their abilities than their intent.

It's funny - I was watching a travel show recently and they were talking about the Arch of Tiberius and why it was built by the Romans to commemorate their glorious destruction of Judea. On the arch is all forms of Judaica like menorah and torah scrolls. This was a great day for the Empire. I thought that they left out the most important aspect: I, a Jew has to read about Tiberius in a history book and their empire is dust. But we are not.

I don't mean to sound nitpicky, but each of those dates you list are after the formation of the state of Israel. I was suggesting that the Arab nations, were they only determined to kill all Jews, would have done so years before the state of Israel was formed. They would have gone to all-out-war while the Zionist movement was still in its infancy. The Arab nations could have used their military to stop the immigration of the Jewish settlers. I think this undermines the idea that all Arabs are card-carrying Jew killers -- and it suggests that there might be another reason beyond blind hatred that fuels their anger.

I love the pride that you show for your people. It is a wonderful demonstration of love for your religion and brothers. Yet, don't let your pride lead you to forget that all people -- not only Jews -- are important. Everyone deserves to live in peace. Everyone deserves to be treated fairly. Everyone's viewpoint is valuable. Everyone has a right to life. Don't support the punishment of Palestinian civilians because of a militant minority. Support proactive peaceful interaction instead. Peace lies that way.

steve