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Thread: Has the Civil War Begun?

  1. #1
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Has the Civil War Begun?

    Has the Civil War Begun?
    August 6, 2005
    By Michael Rand

    As the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish residents of Gaza draws near, we continue to witness some of the most disturbing events in the history of the Jewish people. Mass demonstrations, civil disobedience of staggering proportions, and the refusal of military personnel to participate in the ethnic cleansing have triggered a state of emergency throughout Israel.

    Ariel Sharon’s cabinet has decided that the only way to guarantee the government’s survival is to suspend the democratic rights of the majority of the country’s citizens who vehemently oppose Sharon’s planned expulsion of the Jews of Gaza.

    And, day after day, tens-of-thousands of Israelis take to the streets in mass demonstrations, the likes of which have not been seen in the country’s history, signaling that the tear in Israeli society runs more deeply than Sharon and his Leftist allies had foreseen.

    The question is now whether the civil war in Israel has begun, and if so, how will it end?

    As it happens, there is no satisfactory definition of a civil war. Unlike typical wars, a civil war need not be officially declared by a legislative body. Instead, if we examine the recent events that have transpired in Israel, we can draw our own conclusions.

    Unilateral Separation and Ethnic Cleansing

    The conflict began when Ariel Sharon announced that his election promise not to withdraw Israeli forces from the Gaza Strip was null and void. Instead, he announced that Israel had no partner on the Palestinian side with whom to negotiate peace and, therefore, Israel would “separate” from the Palestinians unilaterally.

    In his typical arrogant style, Sharon did not bother to provide a detailed rationale to his constituents, even when the upshot was the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from land upon they lived at the behest of the Israeli government for three generations.

    But matters did not deteriorate at the time, because no one really believed Sharon would carry out his bizarre threat. Most Israelis thought that Sharon was maneuvering to further sideline Yasser Arafat who was the Palestinian leader at the time.

    When arch-terrorist Arafat died and was replaced by the more moderate Mahmoud Abbas, most Israelis hoped that Sharon would announce that there was now a Palestinian partner with whom to negotiate a bilateral agreement that would produce a compromise position. No such luck.

    Abbas spoke of peace, but categorically refused to stop Palestinian terrorism, citing his own weakness as a perpetual excuse to allow groups like Hamas and the Palestinian Jihad to operate with impunity.

    Meanwhile, Sharon continued to seek legislative approval for the ethnic cleansing and forged an alliance with some of Israel’s most notorious Leftist leaders to sideline his own party’s (and constituents') wishes.

    Suspension of Democracy

    Matters started to take on a new level of seriousness when the IDF began to construct a military city of tents designed to house the soldiers who would ethnically cleanse their own brothers from the Gaza Strip.

    Ongoing acts of civil disobedience began, with the country’s main traffic routes being blocked by demonstrators several times each week. During those incidents, parts of the country were virtually shut down, highways turned into parking lots to make clear that the expulsion of Jews would not be business as usual.

    The highway shutdowns were followed by mass demonstrations, which drew crowds that were at times hundred-thousand strong. The country became blanketed in orange shirts, ribbons and flags, symbolizing the popular resistance to Sharon’s plan of expulsion.

    Seeing the country boiling over with unrest, the government decided to suspend the democratic rights of its critics by disallowing peaceful, lawful marches in Southern Israel and in the area of the planned expulsion. Tens-of-thousands of demonstrators faced off peacefully against tens-of-thousands of Israeli policemen and soldiers, many of whom bust into tears at the sight of the opposition to the planned ethnic cleansing.

    Apparently, the anti-democratic measures were decided upon, as opinion polls showed that a solid majority of Israelis oppose the government’s policy of expulsion.

    Societal Split

    At the same time, the mass demonstrations continue at an accelerated pace throughout the country, making it clear that the Israeli people have split into two factions with an intense conflict. To date, there has been no movement toward violence from the side of the opposition. However, the IDF, having expelled or confined hundreds of conscientious objectors within its ranks, is proceeding to prepare for a widespread military conflict with the opposition.

    But, even without an armed conflict, it could be said that Israel is essentially in a state of civil war. Ongoing acts of civil disobedience and mass demonstrations, together with the suspension of democracy, signals a serious conflict is in progress.

    As legitimate political expression is stifled by the government, it becomes increasingly likely that the popular resistance will escalate into violence as Jewish soldiers are ordered to ethnically cleanse their fellow countrymen. But even without violence, it may just be that in a civilized Jewish society, civil war can manifest itself solely through the enormous expression of physical opposition to the government that we are already seeing.

    Slippery Slope of Tyranny

    One thing is certain, though. When all is said and done, the planned expulsion has fractured Israeli society in a way that will extremely difficult to mend in this generation. It will be a daunting task to overcome the political, ideological, and religious differences that have been sharpened by the government’s decision to ethnically cleanse a portion of its population. This is especially true, as the land from which thousands of Jewish families will be expelled, is given as a victory prize to the mass-murdering Islamic terrorists that Israel has fought for generations.

    And, to top it all off, once the Israeli government and court system have sanctioned the suspension of democratic rights as a means to silence legitimate political opposition, there is no telling to where the slippery slope of tyranny will lead in the future.

    * * *

    Do you think that Israel is already in a state of civil war?
    Last edited by NewsGuy; 08-06-2005 at 07:53 PM.
    "All we are saying is give peace a chance." - John Lennon

  2. #2
    koonter
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    One thing i could not help but notice in your rant was a constant barrage of right leaning myths. mainly

    1) Apparently, the anti-democratic measures were decided upon, as opinion polls showed that a solid majority of Israelis oppose the government’s policy of expulsion. NO no no this is plain wrong. there are no stats that support this statement. and if anything, stats are showing declining support for settlers.


    2) "The highway shutdowns were followed by mass demonstrations, which drew crowds that were at times hundred-thousand strong". no no no this is plain wrong as these demonstrations never exceeded the 50.000 mark

    3) "However, the IDF, having expelled or confined hundreds of conscientious objectors within its ranks, is proceeding to prepare for a widespread military conflict with the opposition"

    a. The number of objectors has not reached "hundreds"

    b. The military is training the forces designated for the pullout with non vilont methods . thus the 5 - 1 solider settler ratio

    but i still agree that "even without an armed conflict, it could be said that Israel is essentially in a state of civil war. Ongoing acts of civil disobedience and mass demonstrations, together with the suspension of democracy, signals a serious conflict is in progress".


    now the reson that i registered to this site after vaugly surfing the web for Israli politics thus hitting this site and reading your article is that i strongly belive that it is the ppl that share your opinion of the state of things in OUR country , are the ones fermenting the discord in the first place. you want to belive that the government is an evil entity that needs to be "brought down"
    because mabey they are doing what they think is the way for peace.

    rant over

  3. #3
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Is It Civil War Yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by koonter
    One thing i could not help but notice in your rant was a constant barrage of right leaning myths. mainly

    1) Apparently, the anti-democratic measures were decided upon, as opinion polls showed that a solid majority of Israelis oppose the government’s policy of expulsion. NO no no this is plain wrong. there are no stats that support this statement. and if anything, stats are showing declining support for settlers.


    2) "The highway shutdowns were followed by mass demonstrations, which drew crowds that were at times hundred-thousand strong". no no no this is plain wrong as these demonstrations never exceeded the 50.000 mark

    3) "However, the IDF, having expelled or confined hundreds of conscientious objectors within its ranks, is proceeding to prepare for a widespread military conflict with the opposition"

    a. The number of objectors has not reached "hundreds"

    b. The military is training the forces designated for the pullout with non vilont methods . thus the 5 - 1 solider settler ratio

    but i still agree that "even without an armed conflict, it could be said that Israel is essentially in a state of civil war. Ongoing acts of civil disobedience and mass demonstrations, together with the suspension of democracy, signals a serious conflict is in progress".


    now the reson that i registered to this site after vaugly surfing the web for Israli politics thus hitting this site and reading your article is that i strongly belive that it is the ppl that share your opinion of the state of things in OUR country , are the ones fermenting the discord in the first place. you want to belive that the government is an evil entity that needs to be "brought down"
    because mabey they are doing what they think is the way for peace.

    rant over
    Not only are you factually wrong on every count, but your own rant is a perfect reflection of the lunatic Left that glosses over facts and re-manufactures them as it sees fit to justify an ethnic cleansing.

    I don't think that the government is "evil," but simply that it has defrauded voters, suspended democracy to silence legal, peaceful critics, and I hope that Sharon and his Leftist allies are voted out in the next election. Unlike you, I believe in the rule of democracy.

    We all know that this ethnic cleansing is nothing other than a reward for Muslim terrorism and that the outcome will not only be a huge split in Israeli society, but also a new terrorist war encouraged by Hamas’ and Jihad's victory over Israel.

    Congratulations to you and your allies who gave the terrorists the greatest gift they could have hoped for -- the expulsion of Jews from parts of the Jewish homeland. When the Kassams reach kindergartens in Tel Aviv, please know that it will be the direct result of your politics.
    "All we are saying is give peace a chance." - John Lennon

  4. #4
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    I should also add that today Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz announced that Israel would now start arresting without trial or legal cause anyone who opposes the expulsion for any reason.

    In theory, this is said to apply to "right-wing activists," but since there is absolutely no legal basis required for the arrests, nor any definition of who is an "activist," this could mean that anyone who is observant can now be arrested at gunpoint and incarcerated for an unlimited amount of time.

    This is an unbelievable turn of events, that says without a shadow of a doubt that to accomplish this ethnic cleansing Israel is officially suspending its democracy and rule of law.
    "All we are saying is give peace a chance." - John Lennon

  5. #5
    Ophra
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    Do you think that Israel is already in a state of civil war?
    No NewsGuy I don't nor do I think there will ever be such a thing .

    If you will excuse me I to will post an article to show how we secular feel about all this ... as you posted yours ... I know you are a fair and balanced person here unlike some of the other members and that you won't mind.
    I do not have enough time to write how I feel personally and his words are much better than any of mine anyways.

    From today's Jerusalem Post :

    The whining self-righteous

    In the high drama currently being staged around the Gaza withdrawal, the collection of moonstruck believers who gathered in a Rosh Pina cemetery two weeks ago to throw a pulsa denura thunderbolt at the prime minister have been overly mocked.

    Compared to the behavior of settler leaders and right-wing rabbis, who have brought the national religious camp they represent to breathtaking moral and intellectual depths, the pulsa denurians are paragons of rational and honorable behavior, not to mention restraint.

    They correctly identified their problem – Ariel Sharon – and devised a solution. Since only the demise of Sharon could possibly stop the evacuation and since Sharon was too well guarded to be assassinated, as their spokesman noted, they called on the Angels of Destruction to do the deed. Then they went home.

    The Yesha Council leadership has chosen instead to wage a public campaign – impressive in scope and organization – in an attempt to convince the general public of the justice of their cause and thus force the government to reconsider. What they have done, however, is induce unprecedented antagonism – if not revulsion – towards them and their cause among seculars, who remain, may God be praised, the overwhelming majority in this country.

    The whining, the self-pity, the coarseness of some of the leaders, the aggressive tone, the shtick ("Jew does not expel Jew"), the self-righteousness – these have left no room to sympathize with the hardship of the settlers.

    The vulgar, grating comparison of their plight with the victims of the Holocaust was the ultimate turnoff. Anyone who falls back on that tactic deserves no human pity nor concern for his fate.

    However, it is when they move from the emotional sphere to reason that the settler leadership and their rabbis truly demonstrate their bankruptcy.

    In attempting to march to the Gush Katif settlements, they were not simply staging a legitimate protest aimed at venting feelings or influencing others. The object was to infiltrate thousands – nay, tens of thousands – into the settlements so as to make it physically impossible for the police and army to evacuate them. That is, a minority intended to physically prevent a major government decision from being executed, one that is supported by a sizable majority of the population. There are words for that sort of thing, perhaps best left unspoken.

    The Right justified its actions by arguing that Sharon was elected on a platform supporting settlements and that his policy reversal was contrary to the will of the people who elected him and thus illegitimate. Apart from the legal dubiousness of that argument, Sharon's election victory had little to do with settlements or platforms. With the intifada raging, the Israeli public wanted the toughest guy on the block in power, someone with pearl-handled Uzis. Left-wingers who were anti-settlement but pro-life helped give Sharon his unprecedented majority. I was one of them. I remember muttering to myself "I don't believe I'm doing this" as I put in my ballot.

    The settlers may indeed be salt of the earth, as they see themselves, but they have become so used to getting their way that they are unable to absorb a setback and have completely lost their orientation. They speak of Sharon as a "dictator" ruthlessly imposing his will upon them. And how are we to characterize the way religious nationalists imposed their will on the rest of the country for the past 37 years, from the Park Hotel in Hebron onward, dancing on their God-given mission over the hills of the West Bank? With the welcome help, of course, of "bulldozer" Sharon in various ministerial roles.

    During all these years, many – from my own experience, I would guess most – reservists guarding settlements were opposed to their existence but accepted the rules of the democratic game without anyone shouting at them "disobey orders." Why should dismantling these settlements be any more of a national trauma than was their controversial construction?

    The most disturbing element of all is the role that rabbis guided by messianic visions are playing on the front line of national policy, exposed now for all to see. If they do not stop issuing their fatwas, like the one calling for soldiers to disobey orders, and return to the study halls, they will only deepen the wound they have been instrumental in opening between secular and religious, a greater danger than anything the Arabs pose.

    Israeli society will be hard-pressed to pull itself together after the dust over this event settles but the rabbis will soon enough adjust their withdrawal-is-against-God's-will theology to the new post-Gaza reality as they did post-Holocaust.

    That other Holocaust, that is. The one where Jew did not expel Jew.

    The writer is a former Jerusalem Post correspondent.

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...991447&apage=2

  6. #6
    Gilgamesh
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewsGuy
    I should also add that today Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz announced that Israel would now start arresting without trial or legal cause anyone who opposes the expulsion for any reason.

    In theory, this is said to apply to "right-wing activists," but since there is absolutely no legal basis required for the arrests, nor any definition of who is an "activist," this could mean that anyone who is observant can now be arrested at gunpoint and incarcerated for an unlimited amount of time.

    This is an unbelievable turn of events, that says without a shadow of a doubt that to accomplish this ethnic cleansing Israel is officially suspending its democracy and rule of law.
    I agree! The most ugly thing about it is, all the above happen while the Leftists and "valiants of democracy" give this roaring support and standing applauses.

  7. #7
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophra
    The whining self-righteous
    Don't you think that it's pretty ridiculous to refer to people who are being ethnically cleansed from their land, as "whining self-righteous"?

    What they have done, however, is induce unprecedented antagonism – if not revulsion – towards them and their cause among seculars, who remain, may God be praised, the overwhelming majority in this country.
    No, the majority of the country is opposed to a unilateral withdrawal, under fire.

    If those in favor of the ethnic cleansing are so sure they have the majority of public support, why did they refuse to hold a referendum?


    But I think that this sentence starts to explain the real reason for the split in Israeli society, which is that the secular Jews basically hate the religious Jews. That's what the conflict is really about.


    The Right justified its actions by arguing that Sharon was elected on a platform supporting settlements and that his policy reversal was contrary to the will of the people who elected him and thus illegitimate. Apart from the legal dubiousness of that argument, Sharon's election victory had little to do with settlements or platforms. With the intifada raging, the Israeli public wanted the toughest guy on the block in power, someone with pearl-handled Uzis. Left-wingers who were anti-settlement but pro-life helped give Sharon his unprecedented majority. I was one of them. I remember muttering to myself "I don't believe I'm doing this" as I put in my ballot.
    Yes, many Israelis voted for Sharon who promised tougher action against the Muslim terrorists and also that Israel would not withdraw the settlements. That was the platform he was elected under and he abandoned those promises, which is why he really does not have a popular mandate to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip of Jews. That’s why Israeli society is so deeply split in a way that has done more damage than most Palestinian terror attacks.


    During all these years, many – from my own experience, I would guess most – reservists guarding settlements were opposed to their existence but accepted the rules of the democratic game without anyone shouting at them "disobey orders." Why should dismantling these settlements be any more of a national trauma than was their controversial construction?
    It is more of a trauma. That is the fact, because ethnic cleansing of Jews is a big moral dilemma for so many army personnel. It goes against everything the army is supposed to stand for, even though some Leftists like the author of the article may believe that the IDF was made to secure the Palestinians.

    If they do not stop issuing their fatwas, like the one calling for soldiers to disobey orders, and return to the study halls, they will only deepen the wound they have been instrumental in opening between secular and religious, a greater danger than anything the Arabs pose.
    The wounds are actually being caused by the Leftists who despise religious Jews more than they despise Arab terrorists.

    The Leftists have decided that the enemy is the religious Jew who believes that Jews should be entitled to live in the Jewish homeland, not the Arab mass-murderers who machine-gun Israeli children in their sleep.

    Remember, this is the same kind of Leftist, like those who wanted to become human shields at the Muqata to protect Yasser Arafat with their own bodies, while making out religious Jews who wanted to pray at the grave of Abraham to be enemies.

    There are many Leftists who are very confused. Maybe they are shell-shocked by generations of being terrorized by the Arabs to the point that they can no longer distinguish between friend and foe.
    "All we are saying is give peace a chance." - John Lennon

  8. #8
    Ophra
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    Don't you think that it's pretty ridiculous to refer to people who are being ethnically cleansed from their land, as "whining self-righteous"?
    When you listen to as many Israeli political chat shows as I do then yes it does begin to sound like that.... on the other hand watching the documentaries when families talk about how they feel and everything they have to leave behind...plus the removal of the graves... then it has brought me to tears. It is an awful situation on a personal level..... but one that the Government has deemed necessary for the overall good of the country.
    BTW ... in the same light, calling it "being ethnically cleansed" is ridiculous ... they are being moved 30km and hugely compensated .... this kind of language is what he complains about in the article.

    No, the majority of the country is opposed to a unilateral withdrawal, under fire.
    If those in favor of the ethnic cleansing are so sure they have the majority of public support, why did they refuse to hold a referendum?
    I don't agree ... the Yesha is a very loud vocal minority ... the majority of Israelis support Sharon and are just watching and waiting for it to be over ... and hoping that there is no more violence. They are not taking to the streets in support of the disengagement because of the sympathy factor towards those losing their homes.
    The Government did not hold a referendum when they built the settlements why should they ask the country when they decide it has been a failed experiment in Gaza ??

    which is that the secular Jews basically hate the religious Jews. That's what the conflict is really about.
    That is a very sad statement and I do not agree..... not all of the settlers are religious for a start.... people are against the religious extremists and those that preach and do violence . We do not want a religious theocracy and we are not happy about religion being so involved with politics .... nor do we like being told how to run our lives. However that is far far away from hating all religious people.

    may believe that the IDF was made to secure the Palestinians.
    The IDF must follow the Governments instructions ... refusal from the left or right is tantamount to treason and cannot be allowed !!

    The wounds are actually being caused by the Leftists who despise religious Jews more than they despise Arab terrorists.

    The Leftists have decided that the enemy is the religious Jew who believes that Jews should be entitled to live in the Jewish homeland, not the Arab mass-murderers who machine-gun Israeli children in their sleep.

    Remember, this is the same kind of Leftist, like those who wanted to become human shields at the Muqata to protect Yasser Arafat with their own bodies, while making out religious Jews who wanted to pray at the grave of Abraham to be enemies.

    There are many Leftists who are very confused. Maybe they are shell-shocked by generations of being terrorized by the Arabs to the point that they can no longer distinguish between friend and foe
    * sigh *
    There is much more to Israeli politics than left or right .... the majority of us just want to live in Peace .. we also do not believe in your " Greater Israel " and we want the land grabbing and indiscriminate violence towards the Palestinians to stop.

  9. #9
    Ophra
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    NewsGuy,

    I give you an example below of the kind of behaviour that is turning the average Israeli against the settlers ..... this "Rightist Anarchy" will be the end of them , the Israeli public will not tolerate any more violence of anykind . There has been enough already !!
    The soldiers at the last protest were moved by the songs and pleeding and prayers .... they should stick to peaceful demonstrations .. they really should .

    Pullout foes to 'drive forces mad'

    Anarchy in the Holy Land; Rightists call on disengagement foes to puncture police squad car tires, sabotage army vehicles, set up illegal outposts and 'drive forces mad' to stop planned Gaza pullout next week
    By Ronny Sofer


    Protesters of Israel’s planned withdrawal from Gaza should work to “surprise” forces set to evacuate settlers next week and “drive them mad,” a settler leader said on Tuesday as right-wingers scrambled to regroup and step up their resistance to the plan.

    Nadia Meter, the head of the “Women in Green” settler group, called on pullout foes to organize better in order to improve protests against
    Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s plan to evacuate all 21 settlements in Gaza and four of 120 in the West Bank next week.

    “Unfortunately, there are no clear instructions today,” she said. “There is no clear leadership that is telling people what to do in the next two weeks. After speaking to many activists from all over the country, it’s obvious that there is no sole magic solution. We must surprise the expelling forces and drive them mad.”

    “The code of war for Sharon’s plan is ‘Chaos throughout the country,’” she said.

    Meter said protesters should try to stop forces from reaching areas slated for evacuation, suggesting tactics such as organizing three simultaneous marches to the Gaza border in a bid to bring thousands of people into the area despite a military closure.

    Troops must be made to feel so traumatized during the actual act of evacuating settlers that they would be compelled to tell their commanders: “Sir, I cannot do this anymore, I did not join the IDF to fight against Jewish brothers,” Meter said.

    “It’s important to pass a clear message,” she said. “Cutting fences, puncturing tires of police cars and disabling military vehicles isn’t violence -- it's a mitzvah (kind deed).”

    More than half of settlers to leave early

    Israeli government officials have said more than half of the some 9,000 settlers slated for evacuation are expected to leave their homes voluntarily before forces begin withdrawing from Gaza on Aug. 17.

    Meter said pullout opponents should organize protests near the Temple Mount compound, a flashpoint shrine holy to Muslims and Jews that is often the scene of Israel-Palestinian clashes, and continue attempts to block major roads around the country.

    Protesters could also stage demonstrations outside the homes and offices of ministers and officials, radio and television studios, the Knesset and the Supreme Court.

    Right-wingers have also suggested protesters try to establish as many illegal outposts as possible in a bid to have forces concentrate on dismantling them rather than evacuate settlements.

    For those who feel such actions are “too militant,” rightist leaders have told supporters to protest against the pullout with signs and whistles, and by standing at intersections with banners reading, “honk against the expulsion of Jews.”

    Several rabbis have voiced opposition to the plan, which they say violates biblical law. Others have said settlers should pack up their belongings to ensure holy books are not damaged in the moving process.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...124802,00.html

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    I doubt there will anything like a 'civil war'. Oh a few hundred roughed up, a few dozen arrested, a few killed. But it won't matter and the Women in Black will of course be silent because you have to break some ouefs to make a scromblet, no?

    I think though that what the Israeli government has learned is that civil disobedience in fact works (Fatah take note - you could have had a state decades ago !!!!!) and that the Israeli government will simply surrender and retreat to the Green Line. All the Jews of Yesha have proven that they are too hard and too expensive to move so they will be abandoned. I think that is where the real civil war will occur - when the Jews left behind to fend for themselves fight a rearguard action on their own under fire to retreat back to an Israel that hates them as much as they hate the Palestinians. It wouldn't amaze me if the border is closed at that point and the Jews are liquidated on the Palestinian side of the border.

    Israel will stay firm, at least rhetorically, on Jerusalem and will cut it down the middle like cold war Berlin with a narrow corridor back to pre 67 Israel. At that point they will be forced to concede that Jerusalem is not a viable capital for the state and Tel Aviv becomes the defacto capital. Let's not forget that the fundamentalist right in the US supports Israel for apocalyptic reasons. To them, Israel as a functioning state or Israel as a nuclear holocaust is acceptable either way so politically the US wants to remove Israeli issues from electoral politics before the 2008 election cycle.

    BTW, in exchange for making noises about terrorism, Europe and the US will force Israel to hand over Golan to Syria 'for security purposes' probably in 2-3 years at the most.

  11. #11
    Ophra
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    BTW, in exchange for making noises about terrorism, Europe and the US will force Israel to hand over Golan to Syria 'for security purposes' probably in 2-3 years at the most.
    Nobody forced Sharon into this decision Medio... he made it alone and with the best intentions for Israel and it's citizens at heart. I suggest you read this in full :
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Proc...s+Apr+2005.htm

  12. #12
    varian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophra
    * sigh *
    There is much more to Israeli politics than left or right .... the majority of us just want to live in Peace .. we also do not believe in your " Greater Israel " and we want the land grabbing and indiscriminate violence towards the Palestinians to stop.
    If this measure does bring peace to the region, then I'll be more than happy to admit that Ophra was right about the pullout. If the terror increases along with the deaths of innocent Israelis (eg. children going to school on public transportation), will Ophra reverse their position on the pullout? Just wondering.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Well now that religious zionism has died in Israel, what will the frightfully modern people of Isra-stan replace it with? "Peace"?, Shopping?, what?

  14. #14
    Ophra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates
    Well now that religious zionism has died in Israel, what will the frightfully modern people of Isra-stan replace it with? "Peace"?, Shopping?, what?
    Probably peaceful shopping

  15. #15
    SteveK
    Guest
    QUOTE: Mediocrates

    Well now that religious zionism has died in Israel, what will the frightfully modern people of Isra-stan replace it with? "Peace"?, Shopping?, what?


    II Samuel (18-24):

    King David then came and sat down before HASHEM and said ....
    "You are great, HASHEM, God, for there is none like You and there is no god besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. And who is like Your people, like Israel, a unique nation on earth, whom God went forth to redeem unto Himself for a people ---- thus gaining Himself renown ---
    and to perform great works for you [Israel] and wonders for Your Land [driving out] nations and their gods from before Your people, whom You have redeemed for Yourself from Egypt. You have established for Yourself Your People Israel as a people unto You forever, and You, HASHEM, have been a God for them."

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