Has the Civil War Begun?

[redcake]

redcake,
You have agreed that Gaza should be surrendered to the Arabs by the Israeli Government.

No. I believe a portion of Gaza should have remained padding between the borders. I view this as an evacutation, not a surrender. I'm not happy that the land is being returned, but it was insane to build Jewish communities, not just at the Green line expanding outward, but outward in, RIGHT at the border of Arab land. Within eye sight...or rock throwing.

Then how should the Israeli Government have carried out this surrender to receive your full seal of approval? .......you imply that the methods of carrying out this anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist act can have more sanitized methods applied.

Are you even interested in an answer, or is this an excuse to be obnoxious? The Gaza pullout doesn't recieve my full seal of approval, sorry. I have great reservations, and accept that while it's not on the level of a pogrom against Jews, it is indeed an ethnic cleansing. I would rather the Israeli government remove Jews, if even by force, and attempt to accomodate this population transfer then leave them sitting ducks for a lynch mob, while the World sits back and says Gush Katif deserved it.

Do tell me about your Jewish and Zionist strategies for a suicide pact of "peace" with, and surrender of Israeli Land to these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates.

Return Gaza to Egypt in accordance with the previous peace treaties pertaining to the land. Stop trying to govern a bunch of wild hyenas dead set on a genocidal dream, that the world population has mistaken for a "freedom fight". Stop trying to defy the natural rules of city planning, and admit that Gaza was a failed development which put it's 9,000 citizens at terrible risk.

[Yasmeen]

Although I would never even suggest the despicable things "SteveK" appears to be so found of spewing forth from his filthy mouth about Arabs, I would concede that Jews of course have more of a right to the land of Israel than any other people. The sentiments of many Arabs, in these regards and many others, are nothing short of extremely selfish and morally bankrupt, and sadly enough, I don't believe that the majority of Arabs will be happy until the Jews are truly "driven into the sea."

Hamas Says Gaza Withdrawal Won't End Fighting

GAZA CITY, Aug. 13 -- The Islamic Resistance Movement, or Hamas, vowed Saturday to continue its armed campaign against Israel after Jewish settlers and troops protecting them leave the Gaza Strip. It sent a message to Palestinians celebrating the impending withdrawal, saying that resistance is key to ending occupation and achieving statehood.

"Wherever there is occupation, there is resistance. Gaza will not be first and last," senior leader Ismail Haniyah said at a news conference attended by at least 10 Hamas co-founders and leaders.

"Hamas affirms its commitment to resistance as a strategic choice until the occupation withdraws from our land and our holy sites," he said.

Hamas, which is dedicated to Israel's destruction, showcased its leaders and political message one day after thousands attended the Palestinian Authority's beachfront celebration of the planned Israeli pullout, which is to begin Monday.

The authority's president, Mahmoud Abbas, said the evacuation of all of Israel's 21 settlements in Gaza and four of 120 in the West Bank would inevitably lead to a Palestinian state.

The Palestinian Authority put its security forces on their highest alert level ahead of deployment on Sunday near settlements. They are charged with preventing any bid by gunmen to disrupt the pullout.

Israeli police commissioner Moshe Karadi said police would go on high alert in southern Israel on Sunday and put up roadblocks to ensure that more pullout opponents do not slip into Gaza settlements to join about 3,000 protesters already there.

"Their land," of course, being "all of Israel."

[NewsGuy]

Unfortunately, this is misleading information that suggests fertile communities existed in Gaza at a time when Ber Sheva was really the last stop before
no-mans land. It was detatched and dangerous land without the comforts of modern Israel - which wasn't even all that modern by Western standards of the period.

You can say that the standard of living is not great, but what exactly is misleading?

[redcake]

You can say that the standard of living is not great, but what exactly is misleading?

These original "settlements" from the 70's are still the least populated, even today, 30 years later, with only a few hundred residents each, at most. I believe these sites also doubled as military outlets at first. We know the largest "settlements" were established in the 80's, and one has to remember that by 1994, Israel had agreed to hand over territory to the PA, as well as adopted the terms "settlement" and "occupied". The writing was on the wall.

At best, that only leaves about 16 years for these supposed generations to take to the land with any sense of promised stability. Even by your equation, this third generation (I would consider this more like a second generation, personally) would only have been 3 or 4 years old by the time Oslo became a household word in Israel....meaning they would have spent their entire conscious lives anticipating a day like today might come. Really, how many of these 2nd, or 3rd generation Gaza Jews could their be anyway? Not enough to really flaunt the statistic.

Gaza in the Seventies was the Wild West. The government made routine warnings to discourage Jews, and tourists from entering Gaza on day trip adventures. In retrospect, it's just as shocking that Gaza now has seaside homes, farms, pathed roads, etc. as it is that the Arabs started calling themselves Palestinians and actually manipulated their way into some land.

[SteveK]

Although I would insinuate the despicable concepts that "SteveK" appears to be so found of spewing forth from his filthy mouth about Arabs, I would concede that Jews of course have more of a right to the land of Israel than any other people. The sentiments of many Arabs, in these regards and many others, are nothing short of extremely selfish and morally bankrupt, and sadly enough, I don't believe that the majority of Arabs will be happy until the Jews are truly "driven into the sea."

Yasmeen,

You have conceded not only about the right of the Jews to all their God given Land of Israel, but you have confirmed what I have said all along about your Arab people being murderers, torturers, and international pirates:

I don't believe that the majority of Arabs will be happy until the Jews are truly "driven into the sea."

Other than despicable and filthy acts of terror, how else would your Arab people plan to drive us Israelis into the sea,--- maybe by inviting us for swimming and surfing at your proposed resort on the Jewish Land being surrendered to you by the atheist Israeli Government by expelling the current Jewish residents, and relocating the graves of their family members?

And, I don't read any news releases from, or about your "Palestinian" mob.
Only two words I know and believe about your Arab people: destruction and death for the Jewish People.

From your demented degenerate dictatorial regimes down, the Arab people are murderers, torturers, and international pirates.

[SteveK]

Dear redcake,

You know how much I value our dialog. Please stop your snarling.
I'm beginning to think that your psychology is one of, well, what a very astute person once told me about the behaviour of some people,--- as one acting like a puppy who has had the $hit kicked out of it.

redcake:

No. I believe a portion of Gaza should have remained padding between the borders. I view this as an evacutation, not a surrender. I'm not happy that the land is being returned, but it was insane to build Jewish communities, not just at the Green line expanding outward, but outward in, RIGHT at the border of Arab land. Within eye sight...or rock throwing.

My dearest redcake, all of Israel is within missile throwing range of all the hostile Arab countries surrounding us here with their populations of murderers, torturers, and international pirates. A Jewish and Zionist agenda means settling in all of the God given Land of Israel with complete faith in The Living God of Israel. Why are you, and especially you in New York, chattering your teeth in fear?

redcake:

Are you even interested in an answer, or is this an excuse to be obnoxious? The Gaza pullout doesn't recieve my full seal of approval, sorry. I have great reservations, and accept that while it's not on the level of a pogrom against Jews, it is indeed an ethnic cleansing. I would rather the Israeli government remove Jews, if even by force, and attempt to accomodate this population transfer then leave them sitting ducks for a lynch mob, while the World sits back and says Gush Katif deserved it.

My dearest redcake, are you projecting your fright to walk the streets of New York? Are you playing right into the hands of these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates? These despicable and filthy Arab terrorists want you to believe that it's a law of the physical universe that whenever something is unacceptable to them, then all of creation must shake with their violence. With all due respect, redcake, your mentality hasn't gotten past your fears of the bigotted south with the KKK. Does the populace in Harlem threaten you? Why do you dialog with me quivering so
about these known Arab enemies of Israel?

redcake:

Return Gaza to Egypt in accordance with the previous peace treaties pertaining to the land. Stop trying to govern a bunch of wild hyenas dead set on a genocidal dream, that the world population has mistaken for a "freedom fight". Stop trying to defy the natural rules of city planning, and admit that Gaza was a failed development which put it's 9,000 citizens at terrible risk.

My dearest redcake, these Arab "wild hyenas dead set on a genocidal dream"
are the proxies for invasion by the despicable and filthy Arab dictatorial regimes. You have the American mentality of the vast country of the U.S.
Remember, I can eat breakfast in Haifa, lunch in Tel-Aviv, and dinner in Jerusalem every day, with a little shopping in Beer Sheva if I eat quickly and catch the train. Stop trying to put the reality of the Arabs' quest for death and destruction of us Israelis into a file that can be stamped as "CASE CLOSED" with the surrender of Gaza... Golan ... Jerusalem ....

[Yasmeen]

Dear ignorant, racist pile of scum:

I haven't conceded a thing to you, but rather, I stated my beliefs, which are that the Jewish people should have Israel - solely due to the fact that they are the only people on earth without a nation, while the Arabs do indeed control the entire Middle East. This is my moral argument for why I believe that, seeing as the Jews do have historical ties to Israel, they should be entitled to the land. My moral argument rests on pure logic, while yours rests on an incredulous faith in something that you cannot prove exists, and more than likely, if it does exist, it doesn't exist in the form that organized religion would have you believe.

Your life must be absolutely terrible to be enveloped with such bitterness, and I cannot help but feel very sorry for you. Though I do need to point out the glaring contradiction between posing as a god-fearing, devout Jew with an underlying hatred for everything Arab. Your life must be pitiful indeed. If I may, I would strongly recommend utilizing your bitterness and misdirected vitriol toward much more constructive things, like say, motivating yourself to leave your computer screen for a whole day (*gasp!*) to do something constructive that might bring about resolution in this conflict.

[SteveK]

Dear ignorant, racist pile of scum:

I haven't conceded a thing to you, but rather, I stated my beliefs, which are that the Jewish people should have Israel - solely due to the fact that they are the only people on earth without a nation, while the Arabs do indeed control the entire Middle East. This is my moral argument for why I believe that, seeing as the Jews do have historical ties to Israel, they should be entitled to the land. My moral argument rests on pure logic, while yours rests on an incredulous faith in something that you cannot prove exists, and more than likely, if it does exist, it doesn't exist in the form that organized religion would have you believe.

Your life must be absolutely terrible to be enveloped with such bitterness, and I cannot help but feel very sorry for you. Though I do need to point out the glaring contradiction between posing as a god-fearing, devout Jew with an underlying hatred for everything Arab. Your life must be pitiful indeed. If I may, I would strongly recommend utilizing your bitterness and misdirected vitriol toward much more constructive things, like say, motivating yourself to leave your computer screen for a whole day (*gasp!*) to do something constructive that might bring about resolution in this conflict.

Dear Yasmeen,

The Covenant of the Jewish People with The Living God of Israel from the time of Mount Sinai has absolutely nothing to do with religion, like your religion of Islam, with Mosques all over the world. God, Torah, The Jewish People, and the Land of Israel are to be one inseparable package deal. But, I do detect that you are an atheist. An atheist Arab?

Even your family, in my neck of the woods, of Arab Muslim murderers, torturers, and international pirates bow to Allah five times a day.

I think that you are raising the popularity of andak01 on this forum.
He is a devout Muslim who actually displays here intelligence.
I had in mind to make a return post to andak01 until I got sidetracked from your blabbermouth. And, an atheist blabbermouth too.

By the way, are you an Arab? This is a new one for me. An atheist Arab?

Yasmeen:

My moral argument rests on pure logic, while yours rests on an incredulous faith in something that you cannot prove exists, and more than likely, if it does exist, it doesn't exist in the form that organized religion would have you believe.

An atheist Arab?

Are you an Arab, or is your national origin different from the Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates of whom I am speaking?

Is your national origin Pakistan?

[redcake]

as one acting like a puppy who has had the $hit kicked out of it.....Why are you, and especially you in New York, chattering your teeth in fear?.....are you projecting your fright to walk the streets of New York? ..... Does the populace in Harlem threaten you? Why do you dialog with me quivering so about these known Arab enemies of Israel? .....Remember, I can eat breakfast in Haifa, lunch in Tel-Aviv, and dinner in Jerusalem every day, with a little shopping in Beer Sheva if I eat quickly and catch the train.

At least you didn't use the phrase "uncircumsized phillistines" like every other post you've made today. I know it frusterates you that my stance on Gaza is complex, with conflicted feelings, and can't be put into a box... but stay on topic, please. Find a better outlet for these attempts at verbal abuse. You might want to take your meds, and stop pretending you're posting on IsraelForum from a tent, holding it down until the IDF comes.

These events are emotional, and disturbing for most all of us to watch, and read about.... but the real fight should have occured back in 1994 when Israel gave back 88% of the land.

[Yasmeen]

Dear Yasmeen,

The Covenant of the Jewish People with The Living God of Israel from the time of Mount Sinai has absolutely nothing to do with religion

*Almost dies laughing*

Frankly, my ethnicity has absolutely nothing to do with anything, especially my current outlook on the world, nor should it.

And again, a devout, god-fearing... RACIST person? I don't know very much about Judaism, but I have a hard time believing that they actually allow racists. Isn't that kind of against that whole "all-men-are-created-equal-in-God's-eyes" thing?

[Mira]

As someone who grew up in an observant home and as someone who understands the political situation pretty darn well....I NEVER would have moved to Gaza to begin with. The Arabs have over a million people crammed in that hellhole and I don't know where the settlers think those Arabs were going to go, but to move there and take residence in close to 20% of the remaining area is not only nuts, but it is the most extreme example of Jewish arrogance. What I blame the government for is encouraging them to do it. The government sent them in there to establish their communities knowing fully well that one day those communities would be surrendered as bargaining chips. The idea, I suppose, was to give the Palestinians something to "win." A certain segment of Israeli society fell in love with these bargaining chips and the Palestinians never gave anything in return. The government is still betting that they will get something for the West Bank, but there is no real indication of that from the Palestinian side, especially since they are gaining complete autonomy in Gaza along with most of the settler's improvements for absolutely nothing. This isn't like what happened with the dismantling of settlements in the Sinai where Israel gained a peace agreement in return. All that has been created is increased fanaticism among Arabs and Jews and a whole lot of bitterness all around. There are a lot of greedy hogs in the ME - greedy Jews and greedy Arabs both, and hogs get slaughtered where I'm from. I don't see this conflict ending anytime soon, which is more or less what most Israelis I know believe and have accepted. But when I think about the increasing fanatacism throughout the ME and beyond and increasing capabilities of our enemies, all the social and economic problems and to pile on top of that the anger and striaght-up hatred people have towards one another within Israel, it's overwhelming for me. I can't think about too much at one time or I'll honestly start to believe that Israel is a lost cause, and I can't do that because I'm Jewish and Israel is the only home my people will ever have of our own and I don't think I could continue being Jewish if there is ever another Jewish holocaust.

[Mediocrates]

Gaza is Israel writ small. You could make the same argument for Israel in the scope of the wider Ummah. The impertinence, the gall.

[NewsGuy]

I haven't conceded a thing to you, but rather, I stated my beliefs, which are that the Jewish people should have Israel - solely due to the fact that they are the only people on earth without a nation, while the Arabs do indeed control the entire Middle East. This is my moral argument for why I believe that, seeing as the Jews do have historical ties to Israel, they should be entitled to the land. My moral argument rests on pure logic, while yours rests on an incredulous faith in something that you cannot prove exists, and more than likely, if it does exist, it doesn't exist in the form that organized religion would have you believe.

Yasmeen,

Welcome to this forum.

You're right to be annoyed with the response you got. I don't know why you're being attacked.

Please don't take offense, and please continue to participate in these discussions.

All constructive opinions are welcome.

[Mira]

Gaza is Israel writ small.

No it's not, Medio. Gaza is Gaza...as in when you are mad at someone and you tell them "Go to Gaza!" The expression just doesn't apply when you substitue Gaza with [i]srael.

You could make the same argument for Israel in the scope of the wider Ummah. The impertinence, the gall.

I don't belong to the Ummah so I don't accept their definition of Palestine. But I do know that israel isn't gaza and if you don't like it then you know where you can go!

[NewsGuy]

Well, as the ethnic cleansing has started, so has the violence.

Sharon's lies about not withdrawing under fire are outrageous as ever, as Palestinians continued to fire RPGs into the Israeli population centers. 2 such firings reported tonight into Gadid.

The settlers who are being ethnically cleansed cut the fence between Neveh Dekalim and Gadid, to connect the two settlements under IDF siege, and also cut the fence that the IDF was using to fence them in.

2 IDF soldiers from the "Tzabar" unit of the Givati brigade were caught red-handed robbing personal belongings from settlers' houses. They were nabbed as they were looting an air-conditioner from one of the houses and also were stealing a refrigerator.

In Ganei Tal, the residents are physically blocking IDF access into their settlement

Hundreds of residents have taken to the streets to fight IDF troops, and punctured the tires of IDF vehicles involved in the ethnic cleansing.

Other IDF personnel, disgusted with the expulsion, were kind enough to smuggle in other citizens who wanted to join the settlers in protest. Several such cases were reported. This demonstrates the difficulty the IDF soldiers are having with what they are being ordered to do. In one of the cases, an IDF serviceman supplied an army uniform to the citizens who were infiltrating the settlements in protest.

Other citizens, including Daniela Weiss were arrested trying to block IDF vehicles with their bodies.

PM Sharon is set to address the nation later in the evening, in an attempt to prevent even more damage to the split country.