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Thread: A letter to the Palestinians

  1. #1
    IsraelAdvocate
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    A LETTER TO THE PALESTINIANS FROM NEW ZEALAND pt2

    The Unbearable Burden of Life
    How did you get into such a mess? As you yourselves would say and have
    indeed said on many occasions, it isn't your fault. It's always the "Great
    Satan" America, and it's "Lesser Satan", Israel, that you
    blame for all your woes. Everything that you do, such as your "martyrdom
    operations", are described as the products of your "rage" at being
    "dispossessed of your land", and of your "helplessness" in the face of
    "Zionist" might.

    There are only 300 million Arabs against over 5 million Jews! How unfair!
    How unjust, that so many can do so little against so few!

    A number of Western commentators have put Arab failures down to numerous
    cultural factors, not the least being Islam. Your religious beliefs in
    martyrdom and jihad, coupled with a total inability to accept any blame for
    your own predicament, have combined to do you great and lasting damage.

    Look closely at why Western countries such as Israel have succeeded, and
    Muslim countries have not. Western countries are free-market democracies.
    Muslim countries (other than Turkey) aren't. Surely that should tell you
    something.

    Why I Stand.
    As I said, I do not, and I will not, support the Palestinian cause. Why not?
    I have a number of reasons, and here they are:

    1. You have made it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that you intend to
    destroy Israel and kill or drive out its Jewish population. This is
    genocide, pure and simple. You justify this by saying that Israel has
    committed many crimes against your people, and that you seek "justice". I
    say this in response- NOTHING WHATSOEVER is an acceptable justification for
    genocide. Loss of land, humiliation at being militarily defeated -others
    have suffered these and moved on to create new nations and opportunities for
    themselves.

    Examples abound- the Germans thrown out of East Prussia in Europe, 1945, the
    Nationalist Chinese who fled to Taiwan in 1949, to name but two. Germans and
    Taiwanese have coped with military defeat and the
    loss of land. They haven't warred with their neighbours, nor have they
    launched terrorist attacks upon them. Both countries have more wealth than
    any Arab nation. Why can't Palestinians cope? Are Germans and Chinese better
    able to deal with adversity than Arabs?

    2. You have accused the Israelis of "genocide" against you. Here's a
    question for you: Israel has atomic bombs and powerful military forces. If
    they really, truly wanted you all dead, they could easily do it.
    Why haven't they? If the Israelis went all-out, you would be, as we say in
    New Zealand, "dog tucker". Why did they spend so much time negotiating with
    your leaders? Because Israel wants peace and secure borders. You refuse to
    give them even those. You plan genocide and accuse Israel of the same crime.
    Prove it!

    3. The use of terrorism. Killing people for being Jewish is despicable.
    Terrorist attacks on innocent civilians are also despicable. (At this point,
    I'd like to pause and get a question of nomenclature cleared up, regarding
    those Palestinians who kill themselves and others with explosives strapped
    to their bodies. You call them "martyrs". Western media sources and
    academics debate the precise term to use in describing them. Others,
    including the Israelis, call them terrorists.
    I have a better, more appropriate term. I prefer to use the word
    "kamikazes".
    The original kamikazes appeared in 1944, in the war in the Pacific. They
    were Japanese Navy and Army pilots,organised into "Special Attack Units"
    with orders to crash their planes into American warships, in the hope of
    destroying them - "one plane, one ship". Their initial impact
    was similar to that of the Al-Quaeda attacks on New York and the
    Pentagon-shock and horror. (I noted that many Palestinians appeared on
    Western TV celebrating the September attacks). Note: The American response,
    in both cases was not the one hoped for.

    Once the shock had worn off, the US set out to destroy the kamikazes, and
    terrible destruction was rained down on Japan,ending only with 2 atomic
    bombs. You know what is happening right now in Afghanistan to the Al-Quaeda
    group).
    >
    >4. Using children as suicide bombers. Anyone who
    teaches children to kill themselves in suicide attacks is not worth
    supporting under any circumstances. For you to do this to your children is
    an abomination. A commentator on a Web magazine said that if the
    Palestinians laid down their arms, they would get peace and land. If the
    Israelis laid down their arms, they would be killed. You know that is true,
    even if most of Europe doesn't. Your cause is evil, because it seeks
    destruction at any price. Genocide is not justice. Sacrificing your own
    children for the sake of your leader's personal ambitions is wicked.

    That's why I cannot support you. That's why I stand with Israel.

    Palestinian Past or Future?

    The Second World War in Europe ended with Hitler's suicide. He was replaced
    by Admiral Doenitz who quickly made peace with the Allies. Japan's
    leader,Emperor Hirohito, decided on surrender rather than
    see his nation destroyed.

    If Arafat chooses surrender, though, will the rest of the Palestinians go
    along with it? If he dies, will the war end? If the answer to both of these
    questions is No, then the Palestinian people are doomed. Do you really
    prefer death as a people? Do you fully comprehend what you
    are doing? If you are indeed aware that the path you have embarked on
    leads to destruction, and if you have freely chosen to walk in that
    direction,then as a people you are truly beyond hope.

    Are Palestinians really going to be a "Kamikaze Nation"? Are you really
    going to give Israel no other option except your destruction? If they must
    choose,then as Israeli historian Martin Van Creveld said,
    "better a terrible end than terror without end".

    Do not think that kamikaze tactics can get you what you want. The Israelis
    can tell you all about Masada, if you ask them. Remember
    what happened to the Japanese at places like Okinawa and Iwo Jima.
    Palestinians deserve better than the current mess you are in now - but
    before you can be given anything, you must offer a sincere peace, you must
    stop teaching your children to hate, you must stop believing that
    "victimhood" justifies everything and - above all other things - GIVE UP
    ISRAEL! Accept that you will never go there again except perhaps as workers
    or tourists. Accept that Jews are human beings.
    Accept the verdict of 1948 and learn to live with it.

    Invest in banks, not bombs. Build computer chips,not Kalashnikovs. Teach
    >science and mathematics, not hate. Look to the future, not the past. Stop
    >blaming Americans and Jews for all your problems, and take responsibility
    >for your own actions. Read those parts in the Quran
    about living with the "peoples of the Book".

    Golda Meir, the former Israeli Prime minister, is quoted as saying, "there
    will be peace in the Middle East only when the Arabs
    love their children more than they hate Israel ". Every time I see pictures
    of Palestinian children waving guns and wearing dummy explosives, then I can
    only say she is right. The alternative to peace is not victory but death.

    Think about it- before it's too late.

    From an Infidel to Those Who Submit, and are living in the Holy Land - May
    God grant you steadfastness in the face of things that cannot be changed,
    the capacity to cope with those that can be changed, and
    the wisdom and the ability to tell the difference.
    >
    >David White
    >Auckland, New Zealand

  2. #2
    takeo
    Guest
    actually the taiwanese who left china still have the possibility to return, and the Germans who originated in eastern prussia are pressuring the polish government to grant them the right of return... (with economic pressure). after all, that's their right to do so, civilians can never be the victim of the deeds of some politicians.
    As long as Israel doesn't accept un-resolutions and Geneva-conventions concerning the refugee-question and the illegitimate occupation, it will not know one second of peace.
    That's the bare truth.
    according to polls, palestinians are prepared to recognise israel (they don't want a genocide against the Jews, only their own rights) 1) if at least some of the refugees can return, 2)if israel withdraws to internationally recognised borders
    Your comparison with Japan or Germany in WWII is BS, palestinians are no great empire that was defeated, but an oppressed little people, much more comparable with the Irish, who also used terrorism because they had no other possibility to win their independance against powerfull GB.
    the jewish people is a great people, but it doesn't has more or less rights than Palestinians.

    "I have noted that large numbers of people, including university educated
    intellectuals support the Palestinian cause. Don't be misled by this. No
    matter how many western intellectuals, news media and international
    organisations may support the Palestinian struggle,none of this matters
    because America stands by Israel."

    even if the us is biased in the benefit of israel, America will not risk WWIII and its own security to save Israel, some people on this board even accused the state department of being pro-Arab...
    South-Vietnam was supported by the US as well...
    it's clear that the us will not be able to provide peace and security for israel if israel continues its current policy, so it has to agree with the international and palestinian demands, if they want to live in a normal and peacefull country at least. Yes palestinians use violence, but the occupation is an act of violence of decades as well.
    Nothing Israel can do will bring peace, except negociations. (genocide against palestians or Israeli is not an option, in both cases the international community will intervene to punish the perpetrator)
    Last edited by takeo; 06-12-2002 at 05:53 PM.

  3. #3
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    Things to understand about Israel.

    #1) If Israel is ever at real threat of being destroyed, it will take the rest of the mideast with it. This I promise you. Mecca, Medina. Bagdhad, Tehran, Damscus, Kuwait City - all will be uninhabitable for 10,000 years. Ah, the joys of mutually assured destruction.

    #2) The US is more likely to go to war over Israel than other countries are to go to war over Palestinian Arabs. The US already threatened WWIII over Israel during 73 to stop Russian support of the Arab armies.

    #3) The right of return you are speaking about is a new creation, and has no basis in reality. First, there is the fact that much land was national, not personal, land in the West Bank and Israel proper. Second, land ownership is a title FROM the government, and if the government changes (ie. a war, a revolution), the new government has no responsibility to acknowledge former titles. This is not like the Holocaust, where the actual existing governments took land away from their citizens because of their ethnicity.

    #4) The West Bank was won in a defensive war - and is necessary for the defense of Israel. While I aknowledge that Palestinians have CLAIMS to the land, so do Israelis, and the competing nature is cancelled out by that strategic reality.

    #5) The UN became a big joke by the 1960's. It is controlled not by democracy of peoples, but by how many regimes, most of them 3rd world, can be blocked together. It is a group of cowards that has no real power. It has done nothing worthwhile since the creation of Israel, and even then, had Israel lost the war, the UN would not have come rushing in to help the Jewish people - they have no oil to protect.


    Originally posted by takeo
    actually the taiwanese who left china still have the possibility to return, and the Germans who originated in eastern prussia are pressuring the polish government to grant them the right of return... (with economic pressure). after all, that's their right to do so, civilians can never be the victim of the deeds of some politicians.
    As long as Israel doesn't accept un-resolutions and Geneva-conventions concerning the refugee-question and the illegitimate occupation, it will not know one second of peace.
    That's the bare truth.
    according to polls, palestinians are prepared to recognise israel (they don't want a genocide against the Jews, only their own rights) 1) if at least some of the refugees can return, 2)if israel withdraws to internationally recognised borders
    Your comparison with Japan or Germany in WWII is BS, palestinians are no great empire that was defeated, but an oppressed little people, much more comparable with the Irish, who also used terrorism because they had no other possibility to win their independance against powerfull GB.
    the jewish people is a great people, but it doesn't has more or less rights than Palestinians.

    "I have noted that large numbers of people, including university educated
    intellectuals support the Palestinian cause. Don't be misled by this. No
    matter how many western intellectuals, news media and international
    organisations may support the Palestinian struggle,none of this matters
    because America stands by Israel."

    even if the us is biased in the benefit of israel, America will not risk WWIII and its own security to save Israel, some people on this board even accused the state department of being pro-Arab...
    South-Vietnam was supported by the US as well...
    it's clear that the us will not be able to provide peace and security for israel if israel continues its current policy, so it has to agree with the international and palestinian demands, if they want to live in a normal and peacefull country at least. Yes palestinians use violence, but the occupation is an act of violence of decades as well.
    Nothing Israel can do will bring peace, except negociations. (genocide against palestians or Israeli is not an option, in both cases the international community will intervene to punish the perpetrator)

  4. #4
    takeo
    Guest
    1) and 2) nobody will destroy israel, but it won't live in peace either.

    "#3) The right of return you are speaking about is a new creation, and has no basis in reality. First, there is the fact that much land was national, not personal, land in the West Bank and Israel proper. Second, land ownership is a title FROM the government, and if the government changes (ie. a war, a revolution), the new government has no responsibility to acknowledge former titles. This is not like the Holocaust, where the actual existing governments took land away from their citizens because of their ethnicity. "

    BS, whatever the goverment, you can not deny the right to return of civilians in international law because someone belongs to the wrong etnic group. in 1945 by the way most of the land belonged to palestinians.

    "#4) The West Bank was won in a defensive war - and is necessary for the defense of Israel. While I aknowledge that Palestinians have CLAIMS to the land, so do Israelis, and the competing nature is cancelled out by that strategic reality. "

    1967 was not a defensive war, israel did the first "pre-emptive strikes", to use the euphimism preferred by defenders of israel.
    Israel has no legitimate claim to the WB as the palestinians have, their occupation is perceived illegal by the whole world, including the us, some palestinians claim the whole of israel, but that's not legitimate either, because israel is a recognised country, even recognised by some arab countries. (but of course this is independant from the refugee-issue, this is not about state-borders but about individual rights of etnic cleansed people)


    "#5) The UN became a big joke by the 1960's. It is controlled not by democracy of peoples, but by how many regimes, most of them 3rd world, can be blocked together. It is a group of cowards that has no real power. It has done nothing worthwhile since the creation of Israel, and even then, had Israel lost the war, the UN would not have come rushing in to help the Jewish people - they have no oil to protect. "

    The un is a representation of all nations, every nation has one vote, is that unjust to you? do you think israel and the us should have 10 votes and Arab countries none?
    The un has recognised israel, and did a lot of positive things in the world, such as international legislation for solving conflicts, fighting poverty, etc.
    Last edited by takeo; 06-12-2002 at 06:58 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
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    #3) What International Law? Do you understand what International Law is? Its a group of multi-laterall treaties. It can not be imposed on other nations. Moreover, the "right of return" is a completely controversial issue, not something well settled as you like to portray. And, in fact, there has been no application of this right prior to the attempt here with Arabs who lived in the West Bank during Jordan's rule of it.

    #4) You are showing your ignorance. There was hard evidence that Jordan, Egypt, Syria and others were planning an attack, gained by British, US and Israeli intelligence. Armies had been moved, Egypt had just cut off access to the canal.

    Israel struck before the telegraphed punch could land, but there is no doubt in annyones mind that the punch was coming. The west bank, btw, was crucial in enabling Israel's survival in the Yom Kippur War.

    There was no ethnifc cleansing in the West Bank, as the Arabs who lived there remain. What happened in 48, whether there was fleeing or expulsion, is VERY hotly debated, and frankly, I think a lot the expulsion talk, verified by NO ONE except the allegers, is simple propaganda.

    Finally, most of the land was not individual Arab land, but State controlled land, by the British first, then in the west bank by Jordan.

    The term Palestinain oinly came into being in the 1960's, remeber that also.

    #5) The UN is a joke because it is a completely political entity that is used by some to serve their own interests, particularly those who have a lot of governments. The conference on "racism" (or the conference for racism, as it really was) is a good example.

    How about 1 Arab vote versus 1 Israeli vote - wouldn't that be more representative of the # of interests?

    I've spent more time doing UN simulations and researching the UN than I'd like to admit - and the conclusion is that the UN is one big waste of time. The UN also screwed up the Palestinian Arab refugee-issue, keeping them in refugee status for over 50 years and allowing their Arab "brothers" to keep them there.

    The UN has not lifted a finger to help the kurds or turks in Iraq, the Palestinians that we massacred by Jordan and Syria or expelled by Eqypt, Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. They have done nothing for Africa, really, as it was Mandela, not the world, that ended appartheid there. They have done nothing to resolve the conflicts in Kashmire, Tibet, Yugoslavia (that was Nato), Chechnya, Peru, Colombia...not to mention going back to africa Rwanda, Sudan, Nigeria, Etheopia, etc.

    The UN is a big joke. It has done nothing since the establishment of Israel worth noting. Nothing.
    Last edited by MGB8; 06-12-2002 at 07:34 PM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
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    No response Takeo?

    I thought so.

    Its so much fun to thrust the truth in the eyes of a person who doesn't want to see it. Its something that Jews and Israelis everywhere must start doing.

    They have to do research on the history of the mideast, so that they can refute all the BS that is put out there.

    The myth of a Palestinian people - nope. Palestine is just a word the Romans used to call the Area. They called it Palestine because the previous name, Judea, wasn't wanted anymore because of the great revolt (the one that produced massadah, I believe.)

    The fact that there has never been a "Palestinian" state (since there never was a palestinian people until the 60's, just arabs.)

    The fact that pre-late 19th century, Israel was barren, and hardly populated. The fact that around WWI (Balfour decleration time), there were about 800 people in Israel, a bit over 150K Jewish.

    The fact that in 48 there were about 2 million, a little over 600K Jewish - (I made a mistake in terms of time period before.)

    All this info is available at mideastweb.org.

    The fact that there was no outcry for a Palestine between 48 and 67. The horrible conditions of Jewish holy sites during 67. The fact that it was indeed a defensive war, even if it was a preemptive strike, since Israel, Britain and the US knew of plans attack.

    To remind the world of the arab attack on Yom Kippur (and on Pessach this year)

    To remind the world that we offered the west bank to Jordan for peace, but they refused.
    That we gave back the Sinai. That we could have taken Damascus.

    To remind the world that we let Arafat have 9 years of a trial run, and he used it to build up terrorist organizations.

    To remind the workd that these grievances of checkpoints, etc, are the result of suicide bombings, NOT the cause.

    To remind the world that even since Arafat denounced terror in arabic, we've now found new bombs in his facility. What a surprise.

    To remind the world that the West Bank has competing claims over it, but that there is no divine right over one thing or another.

    And to bring those who want-to-believe-what-they-believe-no-matter-what, for eexample takeo, kicking and screaming to the truth.

  7. #7
    takeo
    Guest
    calm down, i have to sleep too you know...

    All this issues have been discussed in this forum, use the search engine... and you'll see "the truth" isn't as simple as presented in your propaganda site...

    "#3) What International Law? Do you understand what International Law is? Its a group of multi-laterall treaties. It can not be imposed on other nations. Moreover, the "right of return" is a completely controversial issue, not something well settled as you like to portray. And, in fact, there has been no application of this right prior to the attempt here with Arabs who lived in the West Bank during Jordan's rule of it. "

    UN-resolutions, which, according to the un-charter, must be observed by all UN-members, including israel.
    Geneva-conventions... both explicitly ask for the right of return, not only in the case of the palestinians by the way, but in the whole world, for example bosnia, eastern Timor, etc. The precise articles have been quoted several times by me and other people on this forum.


    "#4) You are showing your ignorance. There was hard evidence that Jordan, Egypt, Syria and others were planning an attack, gained by British, US and Israeli intelligence. Armies had been moved, Egypt had just cut off access to the canal.
    Israel struck before the telegraphed punch could land, but there is no doubt in annyones mind that the punch was coming. The west bank, btw, was crucial in enabling Israel's survival in the Yom Kippur War."

    that's what israel says, but there are no hard evidences. And blocking a sea is a cause for international concern, but no legitimate reason for war. If i kill someone, and i advocate that i had to kill him because he had plans to kill me, but no hard evidences, do you think i will be a free man?
    the war in 1973 was a reaction to the occupation in 1967, and showed that israel could win even if it was surprised, there was no reason to attack first, israel could have prepared for war but by attacking first it was the aggressor.

    "There was no ethnifc cleansing in the West Bank, as the Arabs who lived there remain. What happened in 48, whether there was fleeing or expulsion, is VERY hotly debated, and frankly, I think a lot the expulsion talk, verified by NO ONE except the allegers, is simple propaganda. "

    yes, very hotly debated, but even israeli scholars and the jewish virtual library aknowledge that there were cases of forced eviction. But more importantly many 100's of 1000's of people fled the war, and according to the un-resolutions and geneva-conventions, they should have had the right to come back to their houses and properties after the war. only a minority of Palestinians was able to stay in their homeland, less than 20% .
    saying that there is no such thing as palestinian refugees is as saying there was no such thing as the Holocaust, both facts have been relentlessly researched by historians. Not only the UN, but even israel aknowledges that the majority of palestinians who lived in what is israel today before 1948 no longer lived in israel after 1949.

    "Finally, most of the land was not individual Arab land, but State controlled land, by the British first, then in the west bank by Jordan. "

    wrong, most of the land was privately owned by palestinians. (see the statistics below)



    "#5) The UN is a joke because it is a completely political entity that is used by some to serve their own interests, particularly those who have a lot of governments. The conference on "racism" (or the conference for racism, as it really was) is a good example. "

    the conference on racism was legitimate, because the israeli policy in the occupied territories is racist, only Jewish people have the right to moove freely, to claim new territory, to vote...
    there was also a conference on racism against Soth africa in the 80's...

    "How about 1 Arab vote versus 1 Israeli vote - wouldn't that be more representative of the # of interests? "

    no, because there are 100's of millions of Arabs and only a few million Israeli, and only one israel and many Arab countries.
    one country-one vote is the principle of the un, which was accepted and proposed by your own us by the way. there is also the permanent members of the security council, who have veto-right, no single arab or mulsim-country by the way...


    "I've spent more time doing UN simulations and researching the UN than I'd like to admit - and the conclusion is that the UN is one big waste of time. The UN also screwed up the Palestinian Arab refugee-issue, keeping them in refugee status for over 50 years and allowing their Arab "brothers" to keep them there. "

    The refugee-question remained unsolved because the refugees could not return to the land they came from.

    "The UN has not lifted a finger to help the kurds or turks in Iraq, the Palestinians that we massacred by Jordan and Syria or expelled by Eqypt, Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. They have done nothing for Africa, really, as it was Mandela, not the world, that ended appartheid there. They have done nothing to resolve the conflicts in Kashmire, Tibet, Yugoslavia (that was Nato), Chechnya, Peru, Colombia...not to mention going back to africa Rwanda, Sudan, Nigeria, Etheopia, etc. "

    The UN have pressured south-Africa by all means, the un contributed to the international pressure on south-africa, which led to the end of the Apartheid-regime (as well as "terrorist activities" by the aNC of course). The same international pressure + violence will lead israel to finally accept the un-resolutions.

  8. #8
    takeo
    Guest
    "The myth of a Palestinian people - nope. Palestine is just a word the Romans used to call the Area. They called it Palestine because the previous name, Judea, wasn't wanted anymore because of the great revolt (the one that produced massadah, I believe.) "

    palestine was an internationally recognised name since the middle ages, even Herzl called it "the palestinian question". And palestinians lived there at least since the early middle ages.



    "The fact that pre-late 19th century, Israel was barren, and hardly populated. The fact that around WWI (Balfour decleration time), there were about 800 people in Israel, a bit over 150K Jewish. "

    absolutely BS (see statistics below)


    "To remind the world that we offered the west bank to Jordan for peace, but they refused.
    That we gave back the Sinai. That we could have taken Damascus. "

    Really, when?

    sure you gave back the sinai, and you will give back the other occupied territories too, sooner or later.



    "To remind the workd that these grievances of checkpoints, etc, are the result of suicide bombings, NOT the cause. "

    actually there were checkpoints, etc. before the intifadeh as well, even before the first intifadeh, when there were no suicide-bombings...


    "To remind the world that the West Bank has competing claims over it, but that there is no divine right over one thing or another."

    no divine right, no, but un-resolutions make sure the WB belongs to the palestinians, and all the un-members except israel have accepted this resolutions.


    "at the end of the Ottoman period the concept of Filastin was already widespread among the educated Arab public, denoting either the whole of Palestine or the Jerusalem Sanjak alone" (Y. Porath, The Emergence of the Palestinian National Movement 1918-1929, Frank Cass, 1974).

    Estimated Population of Palestina 1870-1946*
    Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total

    1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
    1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000
    1912 525,000 (93%) 40,000 (6%) 565,000
    1920 542,000 (90%) 61,000 (10%) 603,000
    1925 598,000 (83%) 120,000 (17%) 719,000
    1930 763,000 (82%) 165,000 (18%) 928,000
    1935 886,000 (71%) 355,000 (29%) 1,241,000
    1940 1,014,000 (69%) 463,000 (31%) 1,478,000
    1946 1,237,000 (65%) 608,000 (35%) 1,845,000
    * Figures are rounded.
    Sources: The numbers in this table are estimates constructed from the following: Yehoshua Ben-Arieh, "The Population of the Large Towns in Palestine During the First Eighty Years of the Nineteenth Century, According to Western Sources" in Moshe Ma'oz, ed. Studies on Palestine during the Ottoman Period, Magnus, 1975; Alexander Scholch, "The Demographic Development of Palestine 1850-1882", International Journal of Middle East Studies, XII, 4, November 1985, pp. 485-505; "Palestine", Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edn, 1911; "Palestine", Encyclopedia of Islam, 1964; UN Document A/AC 14/32, 11 November 1947, p.304; Justin McCarthy, "The Population of Ottoman Syria and Iraq, 1878-1914", Asian and African Studies, XV, 1 March 1981; Kemal Karpat, "Ottoman Population Records and the Census of 1881/82-1893", International Journal of Middle East Studies, XCI, 2, 1978; Bill Farell, "Review of Joan Peters", 'From Time Immemorial', Journal of Palestine Studies, 53, Fall 1984, pp. 126-34; Walid Khalidi, From Heaven to Conquest: Readings in Zionism and the Palestine Problem until 1948, Institute for Palestine Studies, 1971 appendix I; Janet L. Abu Lughod, "The Demographic Transformation of Palestine", in Ibrahim Abu Lughod, ed., The Transformation of Palestine: Essays on the Origin and Development of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Northwestern University Press, 1971 pp. 139-63.

  9. #9
    droberts1958
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    MGB8

    You seem to be saying that because Israel was going to be attacked in 1967 they had the right to launch a pre-emptive attack. I agree. I agree they also have the right to maintain the occupation of the WB and G whilst further attack is imminent in order to secure its safety and security. The fact is however that by maintaining the occupation and not providing any adequate plan to retreat completly back to its old borders, Israel is helping to perpetuate the hatred and the risk of the attacks.

    I hear often that without the WB and G Israel, is impossibly thin and easy to roll over in tanks and planes in too short a time to defend. Does the WB and G really make much difference though ? Remember this is the age of nuclear weapons, supersonic planes and missiles. No the truth is that the WB and G make very little difference to Israel's security. Certainly in any postive sense this is the case. If Israel is presently enjoying security then you clearly have a strange interpreation of the word.

    The original inhabitants of the WB and G made many mistakes after 1948 and yes they wanted to drive the Jewish people into the sea. Of course they did and it is entirely reasonable that they had this feeling. They felt terribly cheated out of a big chunk of what they had always considered their land.

    Reverse the positions. The Jewish population living basically in peace for the best part of the last couple of thousand years suddenly find that some some movement in a different continent has decide that some small religious group was going to start emigrating in mass to their land. This religious group with impeccable connections in many developed parts of the world at that time apply pressure through the existing British colonial masters and through American pressure to force emigration both legal and illegal. The numbers increase and then as a result of massive world sympathy for the religous faction which is massacred by others in a world war the decision is made to give them a big chunk of what had always been possessed by the Jewish population. Would the Jews have accepted the decision and given up all the land peacefully. Not a chance in the world and to suggest otherwise is bald faced lie.

    People can change however and now there is acceptance of the existance of the state of Israel. In a final peace agreement now my view is that Israel could get guarantees of peace from every state in the region. The crack pot extremists would be marginalised because most people only want what is fair and an Israel in its 1967 borders would be considered fair.

    Israel has no permanent claim to the WB and G other than crack pot suggestions that continuous presence by a small minority somehow amounts to something more than the gross majority's claims to the same land. Or alternately the spoils of war argument. This little beauty seems to work on the principle that what ever you want you are entitled to take no matter who happens to own it.

    You are right there is no divine right by anyone to the WB and G. There is however a legitimate permanent claim by the Palestinians and a totally supurious permanent claim by Israel.

    You quote numbers "there were about 800 people in Israel, a bit over 150K Jewish". This makes no sense. What do you mean.

  10. #10
    takeo
    Guest
    even in the ardently biased pro-israeli sites cases of forced etnic cleansing are reported, as well as the fact that most palestinian fled the war to neighbouring countries and were not allowed to return.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...hs/mf14.html#a

    "The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. Yigal Allon, the commander of the Palmach (the "shock force of the Haganah"), said he had Jews talk to the Arabs in neighboring villages and tell them a large Jewish force was in Galilee with the intention of burning all the Arab villages in the Lake Huleh region. The Arabs were told to leave while they still had time and, according to Allon, they did exactly that.21
    In the most dramatic example, in the Ramle-Lod area, Israeli troops seeking to protect their flanks and relieve the pressure on besieged Jerusalem, forced a portion of the Arab population to go to an area a few miles away that was occupied by the Arab Legion. "The two towns had served as bases for Arab irregular units, which had frequently attacked Jewish convoys and nearby settlements, effectively barring the main road to Jerusalem to Jewish traffic."22 "

    Subcommittee II of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question, established in September 1947 issued a report in November 1947 which stated under item 63:

    "The village statistics for 1945 prepared by the Palestine administration and showing the position as at 1 April 1945 furnish interesting data regarding land ownership in Palestine. The total Palestinian land ownership is given in dunums (4 dunums equals approximately 1 acre), as being 12,574,774, as against a total Jewish ownership of 1,491,699. [...] The following figures are of particular interest:
    CATEGORY OF CROPS OWNERSHIP

    Palestinians Jews (in dunums)

    Citrus 135,368 139,728
    Bananas 1,843 1,079
    Plantations 1,052,222 94,167
    Taxable cereals (categories 9-13) 5,653,346 869,109
    Taxable cereals (categories 14-15) 823,046 67,839


    Item 64 of that same report stated:
    "The above statistics of population and of land ownership prove conclusively that the Arabs constitute a majority of the population of the proposed Jewish State, and own the bulk of the land"
    (Source: Doc. C74 UNSCOP Report to the UNGA, Documents on Palestine, vol. 1, pp. 165, PASSIA, December 1997).

    if you need some more information go to this Jewish site:

    http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    ok so you've reprinted many of your prior posts here - and?? your sources are generally all from the UN and are self recursive, and?

    But even for you, that comment about Durban is a new one. You seem to be blocked, you need to break through and blurt out the statement you want to make; that the whole of Israel is illegitimate.

  12. #12
    Gatorade
    Guest
    I noticed that site uses a couple quotes from Benny Morris.

    However, the site doesn't tell the viewer who Benny Morris blames for the refuges plight.

    In a intereview ,

    Qutestion: Is it not you who revealed for the Israelis, that they have responsibility for the refugee problem.

    Morris: I revealed to the Israelis the truth about what happened in 1948 - the historical facts. But the Arabs started the fighting. They started shooting. So why should I take responsibility? The Arabs are the ones who started the war, so they are responsible".
    And Morris does not agree with the "Right to Return"

    Q: So this question should be ignored in the final settlement?

    Morris: The Palestinians should be given some solution, but we should not recognize the right of return. […] Even if Arafat will sign an agreement, in light of his behavior in the last two years, it is difficult for me to believe, that he or his descendents will keep the agreement.

  13. #13
    takeo
    Guest
    who is Morris?
    ok, i reposted some links and facts for new users, what's wrong with that?

    "You seem to be blocked, you need to break through and blurt out the statement you want to make; that the whole of Israel is illegitimate."

    I never said so, I think, even if the way israel established in 1948 was illegitimate, as well as the whole idea of zionism, the fact that millions of Israeli people live and were born in Israel, is enough legitimation for the recognition of Israel. (not zionism).
    Also the un recognised Israel, so it is a "fait accompli"

  14. #14
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    I never said so, I think, even if the way israel established in 1948 was illegitimate, as well as the whole idea of zionism, the fact that millions of Israeli people live and were born in Israel, is enough legitimation for the recognition of Israel. (not zionism).
    Also the un recognised Israel, so it is a "fait accompli"



    "I love humanity, it's all the ****ing people I can't stand." So basically the idea of a Jewish state is anathema to you.

  15. #15
    takeo
    Guest
    it should not have happened in such conditions and with such exlusive ideology, but nowadays the jewish state exists, and an israeli people has been created, this can no longer be returned, so I accept the idea of a Jewish state in Israel.

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