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Thread: A letter to the Palestinians

  1. #16
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    How generous.

  2. #17
    Gatorade
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    Originally posted by takeo [/i] who is Morris?
    Morris is a very controversial left wing “post-Zionist” historian. He served time in prison refusing to serve in the military in the West Bank in the 1980’s and now is a professor at Ben-Gurion University.

    Morris wrote "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949" in 1988. Websites like the Jews for Justice, which you provided link, use very selected quotes from his works to give a false perception for who he blames or who he puts responsibility for the cause of the refugees leaving. Morris squarely puts the blame on the Arabs who started the war for the refugees leaving.

    Jews for Justice do not tell that Morris puts the blame and responsibly squarely on the Arabs for starting the war for the refugees leaving or being forced to leave.

    A short story about his lecture at UC Berkeley. - http://www.memri.de/uebersetzungen_a...s_09_12_01.pdf

    For a good read on why Morris made a transformation to now believe: (1) There will no peace with the current generation of Palestinian leaders and (2) why he believes – even though he wrote the book many cite who blame Israel for the refugees existence – why he is against the Right to Return.

    Everyone should read this article
    Last edited by Gatorade; 06-13-2002 at 11:56 AM.

  3. #18
    Gatorade
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    Futhermore, it is not really fair when takeo calls Mithcell Bard, author of the Jewish Virtual Library “ardently biased pro-Israeli” while not giving any adjectives or even comparing him to Jews for Justice website. I agree that he does present a pro-Israel side to his writings but has he ever presented false information or taken quotes out of context to present an argument the writer did not intend as Jews for Justice do?

    Bard is one person and has a reputation to uphold as a historian. And as an individual his reputation on the line every time he debunks a myth. Have you found a myth that he has debunked that he was factually inaccurate?

    Dr. Bard was a postdoctoral fellow at the University of California at Irvine. He earned a Ph.D. in political science from UCLA and a master's degree in public policy from Berkeley. He received his B.A. in economics from the University of California at Santa Barbara.

    What are the creditials of the authors of the Jews for Justice? Where is the accountablity when they make false perceptions from other people’s works? Where are the names of the people who wrote the book, “Origens of the Conflict?”

    I don’t know who the authors are for Jews for Justice and since I don’t know I do not give their information as much weight as someone who has established himself as an expert.

    The Guardian on Morris

  4. #19
    takeo
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    Morris may have changed his opinion, it doesn't mean that they can't use his quotes when it helps to proove their point?
    Historians and politicians do it all the time. For example you will point to the "martyr-speech" of Arafat, but you won't mention the 1000 times he condamned suicide-bombing...

    I don't know who wrote it, i guess Norman Finkelstein and Chomsky have at least influenced the work, as their studies are used frequently.

    about the Jewish Virtual Library...

    "or taken quotes out of context to present an argument the writer did not intend as Jews for Justice do? "

    plenty of it...
    for example:

    "that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which under principles of international law or in equity should be made good by Governments or authorities responsible. Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of refugees and payment of compensation... (emphasis added).

    The emphasized words demonstrate that the UN recognized that Israel could not be expected to repatriate a hostile population that might endanger its security. The solution to the problem, like all previous refugee problems, would require at least some Palestinians to be resettled in Arab lands."

    only TWO WORDS are used to proove that the whole resolution did not demanded to right of return of the palestinians. they draw their own interpretation of those very obvious "that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which under principles of international law or in equity should be made good by Governments or authorities responsible. " without ever mentioning that some Palestinians would like to live in peace and just assuming things that are not mentioned in the resolution.
    They also picture quite some people and organisations in a very selective way. It is their right to do so of course, as long as they don't use false information. It is a very extensive and torough work with lots of references, that's right, but still, i hope you will agree, the point is to proove Israel's point of view, so it's a propaganda site, as well as "Origins of the palestine/israel conflict".

    Another example: the pflp is cited several times as a terrorist organisation but nowhere is indicated that this organisation is not fighting for the destruction of Israel but is willing to recognise israel on certain conditions

  5. #20
    elke
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    In a legal document, ALL words are important, including the ones omitted.

    PFLP is a terrorist organization, because it fits the definition of such. It is immaterial what its ultimate goals are: it has specifically targeted non-combatants for political gain, and it's a sub-governmental organization.

  6. #21
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by takeo
    Estimated Population of Palestina 1870-1946*
    Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total
    1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
    1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000
    Takeo, if it weren't so pitiful, it would almost be amusing to see the same old tired Arab lies in the form of those "statistics" that you post constantly on this forum.

    You know very well that the statistics you post are nearly entirely fabricated from the Arab propagandists listed last on your list of sources, like Walid Khalidi, Janet L. Abu Lughod, and Ibrahim Abu Lughod, etc.

    The fact is that your statistics are nothing more than third-rate Stalin-style Arab propaganda that proves only one thing: that there are people like you who will gladly try to pass off these lies to ill-informed readers.

    Here are some facts:
    *****************

    "The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.

    This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.

    The Arab population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations that had created new economic opportunities. From 1922Â-1947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem. "



    Sources: Governmet of Palestine, Report and General Abstracts of the Census of 1922 taken on 23rd of October, 1922, compiled by J.B. Barron, Jerusalem, 1922.
    Government of Palestine, Office of Statistics, Village Statistics, April 1945. Jerusalem, 1945.
    Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, List of Settlements, their Population and Codes, 31, XII, 1967, Technical Publications Series 28, Jerusalem 1968.
    Israel Defense Forces, Census of Population conducted by the Central Bureau of Statistics, 1: West Bank of the Jordan, Gaza Strip and Northern Sinai, Golan Heights, Jerusalem 1967.
    Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, List of Localities, their Populations and Codes, 31, XII, 1995. Technical Publications Series 68, Jerusalem 1996..
    Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, Small Area Population: Revised Estimates for 1996, Ramallah, April 1996.

  7. #22
    takeo
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    My source is not Arab propaganda but based on several scientific researches, including israeli and american studies. (see the list of references)

    "The numbers in this table are estimates constructed from the following: Yehoshua Ben-Arieh, "The Population of the Large Towns in Palestine During the First Eighty Years of the Nineteenth Century, According to Western Sources" in Moshe Ma'oz, ed. Studies on Palestine during the Ottoman Period, Magnus, 1975; Alexander Scholch, "The Demographic Development of Palestine 1850-1882", International Journal of Middle East Studies, XII, 4, November 1985, pp. 485-505; "Palestine", Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edn, 1911; "Palestine", Encyclopedia of Islam, 1964; UN Document A/AC 14/32, 11 November 1947, p.304; Justin McCarthy, "The Population of Ottoman Syria and Iraq, 1878-1914", Asian and African Studies, XV, 1 March 1981; Kemal Karpat, "Ottoman Population Records and the Census of 1881/82-1893", International Journal of Middle East Studies, XCI, 2, 1978; Bill Farell, "Review of Joan Peters", 'From Time Immemorial', Journal of Palestine Studies, 53, Fall 1984, pp. 126-34;"

    and some Arab studies too, so what?

    What about your information...
    "Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, List of Settlements, their Population and Codes, 31, XII, 1967, Technical Publications Series 28, Jerusalem 1968.
    Israel Defense Forces, Census of Population conducted by the Central Bureau of Statistics, 1: West Bank of the Jordan, Gaza Strip and Northern Sinai, Golan Heights, Jerusalem 1967.
    Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, List of Localities, their Populations and Codes, 31, XII, 1995. Technical Publications Series 68, Jerusalem 1996.. "

    hey elke it seems our new bound is breaking apart...
    All words are important, sure, but it is just ridiculous to use "who wish to live in peace" as an excuse to deny the obligation for israel formulated in the total resolution, because nowhere is stated that refugees are not willing to live in peace, it is just an assumption, unlike the other parts of the resolution which are very clear and above doubt or assumption.

    the PFLP is a terrorist organisation, ok, and a sub-governmental organisation that was responsible for civilian casualties, but so was the IRA in Ireland and in fact most resistance organisations around the world. It is always very important to know what is their AIM to see if a peace-deal with them is possible or not and why they are fighting. Denying this information is a half truth, or a half-lie.

  8. #23
    L@mplighterM
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    Originally posted by takeo
    Estimated Population of Palestina 1870-1946*
    Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total
    1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
    1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000



    I catch a glimpse of what?s in your posts now and then whenever someone quotes from them.

    I thought Muslims weren?t supposed to hit the bottle and that exactly what you must have been doing when you posted those numbers.

    If you want to post statistics at least use numbers that are believable.

    A good source is old books from that era and they are available on microfilm from any good university. You can even order films to be sent to you from other universities.

    I think I?ll have to remove you from ignore so that I can correct your worst nonsense.

  9. #24
    Gatorade
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    Originally posted by takeo
    Morris may have changed his opinion, it doesn't mean that they can't use his quotes when it helps to proove their point?
    Historians and politicians do it all the time. For example you will point to the "martyr-speech" of Arafat, but you won't mention the 1000 times he condamned suicide-bombing...I
    two very different things.

    If Arafat was consistent and sincerely changed his views and condemned terror acts on Israel, it would be wrong to quote his old speeches as evidence that he still is a thug. However, Arafat continues to give speeches where he calls for martyrs while also saying he condemns terror acts depending on the audience. Arafat is not consistent, so also not sincere.

    Morris has been consistent that he blames Arabs for the war and for the continued violence. He doesn’t change his speeches according to the audience. He does not deny that some Arabs were expelled or that others left out of fear of the Israeli military. However, he has always said that the fact that Arabs started the war has been the cause and websites like Jews for Justice only cite part of what he says.

    I am sure in a couple years others will be citing Hitler’s Jewish Army in similar ways.

  10. #25
    takeo
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    But if they want to quote him to proove that some refugees were expelled, if that is their point, why do they need to mention the other viewpoints of Morris, which are not important for the theory they want to proove? they used the studies of Morris, but they didn't mention that they draw the same conclusions...
    By the way, Arafat's position after 1993 was always quite consistent, unlike the speeches in which he condams violence, the "martyr-speeches" are not a call for suicide-bombers, that is only an assumption and an interpretation. So when dealing with this matter, the speeches in which he spoke clear language should be prefered or at least mentioned. Some people on this board also refere to Arafat as a terrorist who is not ready to accept Israel because of what happened in the period before 1993. ("once a terrorist, always a terrorist")
    It is more or less the same principle...

  11. #26
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Oh come now - as soon as all the Jews leave the illegal settlements in Tel Aviv and Haifa there will be peace. I guess they could all move to a big floating island but you'd complain they were 'occupying' the ocean and 'oppressing' the fish.

  12. #27
    Mr. Pumps
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    Today %51 Percent of Palestinians believe the Ultimate goal is to Destroy Israel as a nation. For all you "Peaceniks" out there, you cannot Negotiate with such a people like that under any circumstances.

    And the Right of return belief will doom Israel as a nation. This forum won't exist..Jews in the Middleeast will be gone....The Arabs in around around Israel will celebrate Israel's instant demise with innsane religious fervour. So don't be stupid and accept that as a way to peace... for it is not....Just the total loss of 50 years of hard fought existence.

  13. #28
    takeo
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    BS, which proof to you have to make such statements?
    According to polls (search this forum and you'll find links) more half of the Palestinians is ready to accept Israel.
    And allowing some refugees in israel won't destroy the nation, that's rubbish. 1 million more of palestinians will, i am convinced, even stimulate the israeli economy that needs labour (that's why people from all over the world, thailand, Romania, etc. are attracted to work in israel). And of course if this is the concession israel will have to make to achieve lasting peace, it will have much more advantages as well.

    Lomplighter, i'm so delighted that you decided not to ignore any longer my posts, yet it would be preferable to read the whole post before criticising them...

  14. #29
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Well if you mean that there will still be buildings and roads, yes you are correct there will still be buildings and roads. But it will be absent Jews, or if you understand Arafat it would have a tiny Jewish minority held in ghettos.

  15. #30
    L@mplighterM
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    Originally posted by takeo
    BS, which proof to you have to make such statements?
    According to polls (search this forum and you'll find links) more half of the Palestinians is ready to accept Israel.
    And allowing some refugees in israel won't destroy the nation, that's rubbish. 1 million more of palestinians will, i am convinced, even stimulate the israeli economy that needs labour (that's why people from all over the world, thailand, Romania, etc. are attracted to work in israel). And of course if this is the concession israel will have to make to achieve lasting peace, it will have much more advantages as well.

    Lomplighter, i'm so delighted that you decided not to ignore any longer my posts, yet it would be preferable to read the whole post before criticising them...
    Many Muslims are clearly bad news and that’s why the National Party in France garnished 20% of the electorate’s votes. Denmark, Holland and Austria moved to the right and there are indications that much of the EU is moving that way.

    If you guys don’t STOP what you’re doing a wave will sweep over the world and swallow you up. If you would have succeeded in committing despicable acts in Britain on 9/11 it might have done it. There’s always the straw that breaks the camels back.

    Perhaps you spend your time picking the fly **** out of the pepper as for me I would discard it all. Given Islam’s track record there’s no way under G_d’s heaven people like that should be granted entry into a peace loving country like Israel. NO WAY!

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