PakistanIsraelPeace.org

[Ariksan]

What I am trying to figure out is why every place called Israel has to become a battle ground for some unrelated third parties...

I happen to agree with you a lot but I think you are mistaken here. This is not unrelated to Israel at all. The Israeli-Arab conflict is one of many conflicts grown on Arab and Muslim hatred that is based in their racist ideology of Arab and Muslim supremacy. Out of this setting Israel has many natural allies that face a similar situation. It may have taken a while for the Indian government to recognizse this situation but India has come arround and finally acknoledged that Israel is a natural friend to India. The same is true for the Iranian opposition - the people of Iran are natural allies of Israel. The same is true for the many oppressed native christian people in the middle east. The same is true for the Maronite and other true Lebanese who stood with Israel.

We must not be foolish and break up these natural alliances by cooperating with the enemy - which is not just there enemy but has not proven that they are genuenly intersted in peace but only see this as an opportunity to break up our natural alliances and stick a fork into Israeli-Indian relationships or gain points in the American congress.

[Mil]

Actually I never got around to understand why Pakistanis are so attached to the Arabs?

[Womble]

Ahem... Ariksan, let me put it all into perspective for you... and for our guests while I'm at it.

First, this is an internet message board, one out of God knows how many zillions message boards on the internet. This isn't even a big or a very active message board. Trying to score no matter what political points on an internet message board will not make difference in the politics of a country which this message board attempts to represent. Invading the Israel forum will not change the policies or the choice of allies of the state of Israel, so you can relax and discuss the issue with a little less passion and vitriol. Just keep a cool head.

Second, learn to see the good side of things. After all, it should be pretty damn flattering that the Indians and the Pakistanis, the Turks and the Armenians, the Iranians and the Kurds are willing to compete for our favor.

Third, I don't quite understand your attitude on the issue. Why exactly can we not be friends with BOTH India and Pakistan? After all, India doesn't cut their ties with the Arab League for us, and neither does Turkey, and our best friend the US of A seems to have a special relationship with the Saudis and feels little guilt about it. There's no reason why Israel's relationship with Pakistan should be conditional on our relationship with India, or vice versa.

Yes, India is a more natural ally for Israel, and a more attractive one. They are a larger and a more efficient market for our goods and technologies, they are traditionally friendlier to us (I say friendlier, not friendly, because India did its share of backstabbing voting against us in the UN), and we already have well-established ties. But having Pakistan as a friend would hardly be a bad thing either. They are among the more progressive Muslim states, and their past opposition to Israel is more a matter of ideological inertia than anything else. By and large, an average Pakistani cares no more about the Israeli-Arab conflict than an average Israeli cares who owns Kashmir. Another important point is that Pakistan is regarded as a close American ally, which means that deals between Israel and Pakistan would not be sabotaged by the US the way they sabotages the "Arrow" deal with India.

[ygalg1]

Ahem... Ariksan, let me put it all into perspective for you... and for our guests while I'm at it.

First, this is an internet message board, one out of God knows how many zillions message boards on the internet. This isn't even a big or a very active message board. Trying to score no matter what political points on an internet message board will not make difference in the politics of a country which this message board attempts to represent. Invading the Israel forum will not change the policies or the choice of allies of the state of Israel, so you can relax and discuss the issue with a little less passion and vitriol. Just keep a cool head.

Second, learn to see the good side of things. After all, it should be pretty damn flattering that the Indians and the Pakistanis, the Turks and the Armenians, the Iranians and the Kurds are willing to compete for our favor.

Third, I don't quite understand your attitude on the issue. Why exactly can we not be friends with BOTH India and Pakistan? After all, India doesn't cut their ties with the Arab League for us, and neither does Turkey, and our best friend the US of A seems to have a special relationship with the Saudis and feels little guilt about it. There's no reason why Israel's relationship with Pakistan should be conditional on our relationship with India, or vice versa.

Yes, India is a more natural ally for Israel, and a more attractive one. They are a larger and a more efficient market for our goods and technologies, they are traditionally friendlier to us (I say friendlier, not friendly, because India did its share of backstabbing voting against us in the UN), and we already have well-established ties. But having Pakistan as a friend would hardly be a bad thing either. They are among the more progressive Muslim states, and their past opposition to Israel is more a matter of ideological inertia than anything else. By and large, an average Pakistani cares no more about the Israeli-Arab conflict than an average Israeli cares who owns Kashmir. Another important point is that Pakistan is regarded as a close American ally, which means that deals between Israel and Pakistan would not be sabotaged by the US the way they sabotages the "Arrow" deal with India.

You are more than meets the eye, I am astounded by your analysis. truly (Not been sarcastic)

[Mil]

Posted by Womble:


Ahem... Ariksan, let me put it all into perspective for you... and for our guests while I'm at it.

First, this is an internet message board, one out of God knows how many zillions message boards on the internet. This isn't even a big or a very active message board. Trying to score no matter what political points on an internet message board will not make difference in the politics of a country which this message board attempts to represent. Invading the Israel forum will not change the policies or the choice of allies of the state of Israel, so you can relax and discuss the issue with a little less passion and vitriol. Just keep a cool head.

Second, learn to see the good side of things. After all, it should be pretty damn flattering that the Indians and the Pakistanis, the Turks and the Armenians, the Iranians and the Kurds are willing to compete for our favor.

Third, I don't quite understand your attitude on the issue. Why exactly can we not be friends with BOTH India and Pakistan? After all, India doesn't cut their ties with the Arab League for us, and neither does Turkey, and our best friend the US of A seems to have a special relationship with the Saudis and feels little guilt about it. There's no reason why Israel's relationship with Pakistan should be conditional on our relationship with India, or vice versa.

Yes, India is a more natural ally for Israel, and a more attractive one. They are a larger and a more efficient market for our goods and technologies, they are traditionally friendlier to us (I say friendlier, not friendly, because India did its share of backstabbing voting against us in the UN), and we already have well-established ties. But having Pakistan as a friend would hardly be a bad thing either. They are among the more progressive Muslim states, and their past opposition to Israel is more a matter of ideological inertia than anything else. By and large, an average Pakistani cares no more about the Israeli-Arab conflict than an average Israeli cares who owns Kashmir. Another important point is that Pakistan is regarded as a close American ally, which means that deals between Israel and Pakistan would not be sabotaged by the US the way they sabotages the "Arrow" deal with India.

To quote the words of our favorite poet Vladimir Visotsky for all us analytical Russians:

A na netralnoi polose tsvity
Neobichainoi krasoti

[Womble]

To quote the words of our favorite poet Vladimir Visotsky for all us analytical Russians:

A na netralnoi polose tsvity
Neobichainoi krasoti

A better choice would have been another Russian saying: "A friendly calf milks two cows"

[Mercury]

Another important point is that Pakistan is regarded as a close American ally, which means that deals between Israel and Pakistan would not be sabotaged by the US the way they sabotages the "Arrow" deal with India.

Are you sure that the weapons Israel might sell to Pakistan, won't later be used against it? Or against people in other countries? After all it's WEAPONS.

[sukhoiman]

The arrow example is a poor one. India after all did get the Phalcon (the US was quick to approve this deal), and besides the arrow deal hasn't died yet.

[ProudInfidel]

Mil,

The problem with paki's is they think they are too smart and think the international community wouldn't notice their blatant lies [eg. Musharraf getting on live tv and speaking about women from his country, getting themselves raped to immigrate to western countries].

These people immigrate to countries and involve themselves in subversion of the highest magnitude [eg. a bunch of pakis getting on subway trains in England and blowing them up], belittling native culture's at same time enjoying all the benefits the host countries offer shamelessly and calling the same name's such as [kufr(infidel)] . This goes bone deep in their culture.

One should be really careful in dealing with these religious bigots.

Can some body post the personal email addresses of :
Michael Berenhaus
Dror Topf
Daphne Kaufman
Adam Ducker

Advisory Committee:
"Aaron- Defence Talk" - I visited this site it looks like a pure "paki" propaganda site.

Which makes me think PakistanIsraelPeace.org, is a site hosted by some of these immigrant paki's hurriedly to to win our goodwill, and to use it as a propaganda tool, one should not fall for such cheap tricks.

[Womble]

Are you sure that the weapons Israel might sell to Pakistan, won't later be used against it? Or against people in other countries? After all it's WEAPONS.

Pakistan and Israel do not share a common border, so a direct military confrontation is unlikely. Re-sale of our technologies to a hostile third party is possible- but this probability exists even when we sell stuff to the US. That's why the Saudi F16s now carry lots of our technology on board . As for the "other countries"- frankly speaking, this isn't really our responsibility. What Pakistan does with the weapons it buys from us will be entirely on their conscience.

[Womble]

The arrow example is a poor one. India after all did get the Phalcon (the US was quick to approve this deal), and besides the arrow deal hasn't died yet.

Perhaps- but it was delayed indefinitely. Like it or not, US interference makes the India-Israel trade unreliable as far as defense technologies go. Which is a damn shame, if you ask me.

[sukhoiman]

Perhaps- but it was delayed indefinitely. Like it or not, US interference makes the India-Israel trade unreliable as far as defense technologies go. Which is a damn shame, if you ask me.

True....but what makes you think that the US will be quicker to approve such technology to the known nuke proliferator Pakistan....if at all? Pakistan is an ally in theory....but we all know that they are just getting used by the US for short term goals since they have aligned themselves very closely to China...a country Pakistan sees as more reliable and friendly.

I mean "be our ally" or "get your living daylights bombed out of you"....not a hard choice for Pakistan to make post 9/11.

So Israel I think is wisely keeping its options open....good relations with Pakistan will prove to be a plus point in gaining further ground with the muslim "ummah". But I doubt that Pakistan will stay a US ally in the long term (with the inevitable US - China economic and possible military conflicts)...to be an attractive military customer for israel - which will more importantly come at the cost of good relations with India.

[Womble]

True....but what makes you think that the US will be quicker to approve such technology to the known nuke proliferator Pakistan....if at all? Pakistan is an ally in theory....but we all know that they are just getting used by the US for short term goals since they have aligned themselves very closely to China...a country Pakistan sees as more reliable and friendly.

Well, they're being used for these short-term goals for a good few decades... which is already pretty long-term

I mean "be our ally" or "get your living daylights bombed out of you"....not a hard choice for Pakistan to make post 9/11.

Pakistan has been a US ally throughout the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Perhaps even before that, I need to check the history.

So Israel I think is wisely keeping its options open....good relations with Pakistan will prove to be a plus point in gaining further ground with the muslim "ummah". But I doubt that Pakistan will stay a US ally in the long term (with the inevitable US - China economic and possible military conflicts)...to be an attractive military customer for israel - which will more importantly come at the cost of good relations with India.

Well, if a need to choose between the two arises, I doubt that Israel would choose Pakistan. Like I said, from a purely pragmatic standpoint India is a more attractive customer and a more reliable ally. Not to mention that it is the number one favorite tourist destination for the Israeli youth, while in Pakistan a person with an Israeli passport simply wouldn't feel quite as safe at the moment. But who knows how the times will change.

And by the way, isn't India also developing some pretty close relations with China?

[sukhoiman]

Well, they're being used for these short-term goals for a good few decades... which is already pretty long-term


Pakistan has been a US ally throughout the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Perhaps even before that, I need to check the history.


Well, if a need to choose between the two arises, I doubt that Israel would choose Pakistan. Like I said, from a purely pragmatic standpoint India is a more attractive customer and a more reliable ally. Not to mention that it is the number one favorite tourist destination for the Israeli youth, while in Pakistan a person with an Israeli passport simply wouldn't feel quite as safe at the moment. But who knows how the times will change.

And by the way, isn't India also developing some pretty close relations with China?

They were a pretty close ally of the US since the 60s when they became a member of SEATO. They got US weaponry to act as a bulwark against soviet interests in the region. The problem with this was that it annoyed India so much that it tilted towards the soviets...stagnating US - India relations for the next 30 or so years.

However with the demise of the USSR, the US ditched Pakistan with the dramatic pressler amendment which saw the US withold Pakistani F-16s which pakistan had already paid for. This ugly dispute ended with the US agreeing to pay the amount back - some in cash...the rest in soya bean oil.

Ever since Pakistan shifted strongly to China, an ally that had been "all weather" (though fell short of intervening on Pakistan's behalf when it got dismembered by India in 1971) and one that had provided it with considerable nuclear know how and provided a lot of its missile delivery systems and tech transfer.

The US simply failed to see the significance of leaving both Pakistan and Afghanistan to sweat out the after effects of the Soviet withdrawal from the latter. A bunch of islamic zealots originating from Pakistani madrassas eventually filled the power vacuum and called themselves the "taliban". For years Pakistan ruled Afghanistan through this proxy, funding its kashmir terrorism with opium and heroin money while the US turned a blind eye to the rogue nature of its former ally.

However this had the effect of nurturing a much more global menace...that of Al Qaeda...and suddenly the west could no longer ignore the severity of the extremist pore that was afghanistan.

Hence pakistan's proxy had to go, and the US and Pakistan made a deal. Let go of Afghanistan and deal with your country's extremism...we don't enter your country and do it for you.

The very nature of this deal is one of immediate requirement...and the significance of Pakistan's role in it will remain so long as OBL is on the loose and the war on terror prevails.

However, the other effect that arises from this short term nature is one where the 2nd and 3rd powers arise and redefine the political landscape around the world. The ramifications of this are unknown...but we can count on the US - Pakistan partnership to be one of three things...all dependent on how Pakistan plays it cards:

1) Pakistan chooses the US over China.

2) Pakistan chooses China over the US

3) Pakistan plays the fiddle for both countries

The problem with 3 is well known. Going only to 2nd base with both sides brings little reward at the high cost of a balancing act. If Pakistan does not commit, it will lose relevance and significance in the eyes of both countries.

So we are left with 1 or 2. 1 is unlikely. China has invested a great deal into Pakistan and Pakistan can count on becoming a deep enemy of China should it become a full fledged US ally in the inevitable clash of the titans. This "betrayal" would cost it dearly in any US - China conflict given its proximity to China.

2 is the most likely scenario in the future. Being in the China camp brings it a greater degree of comfort given the trust between the two countries and a good deal of protection against larger India - the other rising world power.

This is why Israel - a strong US ally, will not be a very likely contender for a close relationship with the likes of a country like Pakistan. There is so much that is unpredictable and where things are predictable, they are not conducive to a military relationship.

However we can more or less ascertain a troika forming between the US - India and Israel ....with the EU and Japan as firm supporters...given the goals of these countries to see democracy prosper and islamic extremism destroyed.

Therefore a continued relationship with India is all the more certain given the likely geopolitical scenario of the future. The stalling of systems like the arrow has more to do with the thawing out of the last bits of ice between India and the US....something that will be completed in the near future with continued Indian support of the US in such polls such as that in the IAEA refferral to the SC of Iran.

Therefore I rest my case.These are my opinions and thus contain my bias. Anyone is free to critique them and I am open to any civil debate of any of the issues I have presented.

[Womble]

It's a nice analysis, Sukhoiman. Very smoothly written, I must say, I even suspected for a moment that it was copy pasted from some solid defense analyst's article

Just some observations.

I wouldn't blame Pakistan for "nurturing Al-Qaeda". They are nobody's proxy. I've studied their ideological genesis in depth and it appears that they are a product exclusively of the Arab MidEast. Nor are the Taleban a Pakistani creation; to my knowledge, their clergy has overwhelmingly been educated in the Darul Uloom Deoband in Uttar Pradesh, India, and its multiple foreign branches. They may have been exploited by Pakistan to some extent though.

What worries me the most about Pakistan is its internal political instability. India may not be the most reliable of allies and they have long-standing sympathies for the Arab states- but at least it can be assumed with a high degree of certainty that their state isn't going to collapse into anarchy and emerge as another nuclear version of the Islamist Iran. With Pakistan, unfortunately, it is still a very real possibility.