PakistanIsraelPeace.org

[KettleWhistle]

Pakistan and Israel do not share a common border, so a direct military confrontation is unlikely. Re-sale of our technologies to a hostile third party is possible- but this probability exists even when we sell stuff to the US. That's why the Saudi F16s now carry lots of our technology on board . As for the "other countries"- frankly speaking, this isn't really our responsibility. What Pakistan does with the weapons it buys from us will be entirely on their conscience.

Weapon sales are always political. It would be stupid to sell weapons to Pakistan. But that said, there is no reason to not seek normalized relationships with them. And, IMO, it shouldn't bother India in the slightest because Israel and India are much more culturally compatible than either is with Pakistan. And that will certainly count for most of the goodwill cooperation between Israel and India.

[Mediocrates]

Pakistans interest in Israel stems in part from who is between them: Iran. For all the western nonsense screeching abou nuclear Israel vs. nuclear Iran it's critical to understand that Iran is surrounded by nuclear states already. India, Pakistan, China, Russia and by proxy, the US and the UK in Iraq and the Indian Ocean.

Pakistan is faced with a few problems. 1) how to deal with its own internal struggles in light of the fact that parts of the country really aren't under central control anymore and fundamentalists threaten to take over whole provinces. 2) pressure from the US to do something about those fundamentalists. 3) an exploding population that has Pakistan poised to be the third most populous country in the next 30 years. 4) access to technology that will help them advance economically and militarily. 5) any effort to make allies of the allies of India in order to thwart any additional pressure from them. 6) a need to confront and increasingly independent and unrestrained Iran that is already worming its way into Iraqi, Syrian and Lebanese politics as well as quietly prosecuting low level dirty wars in the Caucuses and the Islamic states of the FSU. From Pakistan's perspective it makes good sense to bring the regions one last superpower closer; Israel. Internally Pakistan has to be seen as making some move against its fundamentalists but not a dramatic move. This is why Pakistan makes halting public half measures toward Israel. But it's entirely plausible that those countries have low level cooperation in place already. And certainly for Israel they have to be careful to not share too much as Pakistan is still a risk to them in terms of how its military has been penetrated by radicals, fundamentalists and old school Israel haters already. But on the whole, diplomacy is what it is and it makes a great deal of sense to show the Iranians (& the Indians as well) that they won't be isolated. Pakistan already has semi-normalized relations with the US. And the US has troops on the ground in Iraq, Jordan and the Islamic FSU states. Therefore it makes sense for Pakistan to have some kind of relations with the US's key ally there as well; Israel.

[ZulfiPK]

Mediocrates, your assessment about why Pakistan is wanting to engage in some sort of working relationship with the state of Isreal, couldn't be further from truth. Not sure what areas you are refering to, when you say that there are some areas in Pakistan, which are not under Pakistani government direct control. There is a region in Pakistan known as Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), which was sort of autonomous area. The government had there officials in these area, but they never interfered in these area(which can hardly be considered as a region out of the Pakistani governments control). But today, due to an ongoing operation against the foreign terrorists/militants, the Pakistan army went in these areas for the first time in over a century to take out these foreign elements, with the locals of FATA(for the most part) supporting it...
IMO, from a Pakistani perspective, it makes somewhat sense to engage with the state of Isreal so that certain factors can go in our favor(Pakistan's) or atleast be neutralised. One of the areas of concern for the defence establishment in Islamabad is the growing Isreali-Indian defense relationship. We dont expect the Isrealis to stop selling high-tech defense technology to the Indians tomorrow, but with the passage of time, and with more confidence in each other, we hope to get the same technology from the Isrealis as well, not to use it against the state of Isreal, but to keep the balance of power in our hostile region. However, I'm also complelled to mention here, that Pakistan is not dependent on the state of Isreal. We have survived under the U.S. sanctions for decades, and do have the capability to go through the same route again. There are other shops in the defense market which are more then happy to sell us their products.
The second, reason it makes sense for us to engage with the Jewish/Isrealis, is because the media quite frankly is controlled by Jewish leadership(or atleast its widely percieved that way in Pakistan) in the U.S.(where it matters the most). Pakistan is a great country, with alot of talent, alot of resources, and with macro economic stability, however, we are still not able to attract the foreign direct investment(FDI), and that's only because we have a bad image, and that is something we are desperately trying to correct.
I dont see why the two countries should sit back and not do anything to remove the misunderstandings about eachother.

[Ariksan]

Ahhhhhhhhh. So the reason why they want to court Israel is to win over the Jooos_who_control_the_media_and_the_white_house (tm) .

[Mercury]

As for the "other countries"- frankly speaking, this isn't really our responsibility. What Pakistan does with the weapons it buys from us will be entirely on their conscience.

I must admit that coming from you this is a bit of a surprise. Taking a closer example - if a few years from now Iran nukes Israel with the a-bomb Russia is helping it to develop will you (assuming you survive) consider Iran as the only culprit?

[ZulfiPK]

Ahhhhhhhhh. So the reason why they want to court Israel is to win over the Jooos_who_control_the_media_and_the_white_house (tm) .

Partly Yes. IMO, in this case the Pakistanis need the Isreali help, while the Isrealis need the Pakistanis. I have already forementioned, what Isreal can do for Pakistan, but from an Isreali point of view, the Isrealis need a powerfull Muslim country to be on their side, and who better than Pakistan; both countries founded in the name of religion, both countries surrounded by hostile neighbors, the Pakistanis can learn a few things from the Isrealis, and the Isrealis can learn a few things from the Pakistanis. Again, as I said before, the Isrealis are not desperate for Pakistanis, nor are Pakistanis desperate for the Isrealis, but it would look good to the outside world, and we can claim that Isreal can co-exist with other Muslim countries, and its only the Arabs, who are the fuss makers, while Pakistan can also claim, that we are not Islamic fundamenlists, as usually portrayed in the media, or by Pakistan bashers on differrent forums. It would be an excellent oppertunity for both the countries to silent them...

[InnocentMonster]

both countries founded in the name of religion, both countries surrounded by hostile neighbors,

Is this is a confession from a Pakistani that palestinians are indeed hostile ?

[ZulfiPK]

Is this is a confession from a paki that palestinians are indeed hostile ?

Innocent Monster, its not a confession, just my personnal opinion. I'm a proud Pakistani Muslim, but I also believe that killing innocent civilians whether they reside in Tel Aviv, London, Karachi, Lahore, New York etc. is not justified in any manner. I have the guts to admit that yes the Arabs have made alot of mistakes, and the leadership(if there is any), has failed the people. On the other hand, I also believe that the Isreali government is no saint either.

[Aliph]

Some people are making it a Israel pick between Pakistan or India debate.

To keep it simple.

1. Pakistan and Isreal are sitting at two different corners of the worlds. A direct armed conflict between the two is minute at its best.

2. Pakistan has never been a sworn enemy of Israel. (A fact !)

3. If Israel can have peacefull terms with Egypt ( the most serious enemy of Israel at one time ), then why not with Pakistan. ( That never was an enemy at the first place)?

4 and lastly, Are both Pakistan and Israel better off as opponents or friends?

[MGB8]

I think that most people on this forum would agree with you. There is some reservation and caution... that's it.

[sukhoiman]

It's a nice analysis, Sukhoiman. Very smoothly written, I must say, I even suspected for a moment that it was copy pasted from some solid defense analyst's article

Just some observations.

I wouldn't blame Pakistan for "nurturing Al-Qaeda". They are nobody's proxy. I've studied their ideological genesis in depth and it appears that they are a product exclusively of the Arab MidEast. Nor are the Taleban a Pakistani creation; to my knowledge, their clergy has overwhelmingly been educated in the Darul Uloom Deoband in Uttar Pradesh, India, and its multiple foreign branches. They may have been exploited by Pakistan to some extent though.

What worries me the most about Pakistan is its internal political instability. India may not be the most reliable of allies and they have long-standing sympathies for the Arab states- but at least it can be assumed with a high degree of certainty that their state isn't going to collapse into anarchy and emerge as another nuclear version of the Islamist Iran. With Pakistan, unfortunately, it is still a very real possibility.

Thank you womble. Yeah I normally dont go into long diatribes like that one, but heck...it was 1 AM, I felt good since I finished a huge stack of office work...so I figured I might break in my new keyboard while finishing the coffee .

As for the Taliban being created in the ME and not Pakistan. I suggest you have a look here:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0110/S00004.htm

http://english.pravda.ru/world/2002/04/10/27500.html

http://www.cromwell-intl.com/security/nu/aq.html

I would also like to see some sources for the links to India. I have never heard of this before, though I wouldn't be surprised given the cells operating from indian soil as well. Hopefully they will be cracked down upon before long.

I agree with your last analysis. However I would like you to find one country that has exclusive relations with only Israel at full cost of arab countries. Not even the US can afford this because of the oil. As soon as the oil is no longer part of the equation, I doubt there would be much reason for the relations to continue with the Arab countries. However for now, we have to maintain relations or commit energy suicide. I don't think any country would choose the latter.

The instability of Pakistan is a great cause for concern to the region and beyond. I shudder to think what would happen if crazed zealots got possession of nukes. It will have to be Osirak II....maybe israel, US and India will have their first mission on their hands. I wouldn't be surprised if they have already planned something out in case this unthinkable eventuality occurs.

[ZulfiPK]

The instability of Pakistan is a great cause for concern to the region and beyond. I shudder to think what would happen if crazed zealots got possession of nukes. It will have to be Osirak II....maybe israel, US and India will have their first mission on their hands. I wouldn't be surprised if they have already planned something out in case this unthinkable eventuality occurs.

I can understand why some people might feel uncomfortable with Pakistan's nuclear assets, specially after the A.Q.Khan debacle. But what the world needs to understand is that Pakistan's nuclear assets are in Pakistan's army supervision. If you take some time out, and study Pakistan's history, you will notice that if there is any established institution left, it would be Pakistan army, which has taken the responsibility of securing Pakistan's assets. If president Musharraf is assasinated tomorrow, there would be a new army general in place of Musharraf, continuing the policies of president Musharraf. There is no instability in Pakistan, yes, there two provinces which are currently ruled by the Islamists, but that does not imply that there is no rule of law. Having said that, I also believe that it would be a mistake to even think of attacking Pakistan's nuclear assets. Pakistan is not Iraq.... when the Isrealis attatcked the Iraqi nuclear program, the Iraqi nuclear program was at a beginning stage. Pakistan's nuclear program is at an advance level, and learning from the history, Pakistanis do not keep all their eggs in one basket.

[ZulfiPK]

I think that most people on this forum would agree with you. There is some reservation and caution... that's it.

But this caution and reservation is on the other side of the isle as well. The Pakistanis are thinking the same thing, that the Isrealis cannot be trusted. Isrealis have the fear that the Pakistanis cannot be trusted. IMO, people like us will have to come out of our mold, and start talking things out, because there is no other way...

[ProudInfidel]

Aliph,

1) "Pakistan and Isreal are sitting at two different corners of the worlds". Are you serious ??? (ie. Canada where you live and Israel, for sure) but pakistan and Israel ???, ever cared to look at a map before. We very much fall under the pan-islamic caliphate that the saudi's,pakistani's have been plotting for years, which calls for nothing less than the destruction of the State of Israel.

2) "Pakistan has never been a sworn enemy of Israel. (A fact !) ", please get your facts straight.

To cite a few..

a) Discarding the traditional policy of political support to the Arabs,
Pakistan became actively involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict. In the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan charged that Pakistani pilots were flying Jordanian aircraft that took part in the war.

According to one Pakistani account, during the war “Pakistan pilots defended Syrian skies and even shot down an Israeli plane.” Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto promised President Hafiz al-Assad that “should Damascus be in danger from the Zionists, a Pakistan brigade would be ready to fly over and fight shoulder-to-shoulder with the Syrians.”

In its quest for Arab support, Pakistan played an important role in Israel’s exclusion from the Bandung Conference of 1955 and Israel’s subsequent isolation.

b) Deliberate usage of Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) to whip up anti israel rhetoric.

c) Pakistan voted against the UN partition plan that formed the legal basis for the establishment of the Jewish state. Pakistan also voted against Israel’s admission into the UN. Within days after its formation, Israel formally requested Pakistan’s recognition; the request went unanswered, even till today.

d)In September 1994, Pakistan joined countries such as Syria and Saudi
Arabia in signing a declaration banning postal contacts with Israel.

3) If Israel can have peacefull terms with Egypt ( the most serious enemy of Israel at one time ), then why not with Pakistan. ( That never was an enemy at the first place)?

I have answered this above, proving you wrong. Pakistan is one of the few countries in the world which still stives on hatred towards Israel, just like Iran,Syria, and Saudi Arabia. Have you ever read all the rhetoric emanating out of the mouth's of mullahs using loud speakers from the mosque's in pakistan and the anti semitic propaganda which is a regular feature in the educational curriculum sponsored by the official adminstration for indoctrination of masses.

4) "and lastly, Are both Pakistan and Israel better off as opponents or friends?" - We always strive for friendship, same goes with pakistan, but if you are under any illusion that by sponsoring religious fundamentalism, or hatred towards Israel to accomodate foreign policy objective's, it simply wont work.

"what Isreal can do for Pakistan, but from an Isreali point of view, the Isrealis need a powerfull Muslim country - ZulfiPK"

We can also do without one and always have since our formation. Please stop marketing your country like this, Pakistan at present has very little in common with us, in future may be. The reason I'm saying this is pakistani's are causing a headache all over the world [Sept 11, London, Egypt, and most recently oklahoma], to governments with regards to the sheer number of links emerging wrt. pakistan's tacit support for jihadist groups to forward strategic objective's, and above all the last thing we would like to see is pakistani jihadist's on our streets, we already have enough of them and hence all this scepticism.

I have recently seen a post on your forum(pakistanidefenceforum.com) in the other thread, about a grand plan hatched to spam this forum with your propaganda, please desist from doing this as it will surely backfire causing the opposite effect, wrt. to the hate you guys are spewing towards Israel and Jews on your forum is a clear indicator of the reality that govern's Israel's relations with Pakistan. I can only hope it will change in the future. In light of the above, I have reservation's about genuine intentions of pakistani poster's joining this forum in horde's.

[ZulfiPK]

Quite frankly I have seen the hate on this forum as well against Pakistan and Islam, so if you saw some hate on pakistanidefence.com, you shouldn't take it too personal. It's called internet, where anybody with a keyboard, becomes a pseudo intellectual. Besides what does Pakistan have to do with the tragic event of 9-11, London bombing, Egypt, or Oklahoma; care to explain? While the people are always talking about how the Pakistanis/Muslims hate Isrealis, and have never anything good to say about the Isrealis/Jews, I think you should do some more reserach. I also subscribe to a Pakistani forum, where just like this forum, we are always discussing/debating the issues currently faced by all of us. An Isreali woman, recently joined us and showed us the other side of the story and we thanked her for that, while at the same time welcoming her to www.gupshup.org. I think its about time that you open your eyes as well and atleast try to understand the differences....
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthrea...s+isreali+girl