Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?

[Evgeni]

Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genicide?

[alexbmn]

chto?

[Vic]

Who does, officially?

[Pushtak18]

Many Armenians get the picture that Israel does not recognize the Genocide that occured in the begning of the 20th century, but thats not true.

In Israel, and especially in Universitys and lecture halls there are many intellectuals from professors to hisorians who do recognize that there was a massacre.

I think that Israel got the bad reputation because of two things;
1) Israel and its ties with Turkey
2) Jewish professors like Professor Lewis, whom was in hot water a couple of years back regarding the Armenian genocide.

But overall, Armenians and jews are not the best of friends. Not many do know that Armenian jews were also victims of the Genocide.

[danholo]

Anti-Armenian speeches?

[Miriam]

The unfortunate fact is that AFAIK both Israel and some prominent Jewish US politicians have been handling the situation rather clumsily. Turkey is due to its unique position in an important strategic partner both to the US and Israel, and some politicians were apparently just too eager to please it and overlook some of its darker political corners. Armenian history is no less painful than the Jewish one, and I can well understand the sensitivities. The relations with both countries should be handled with greatest care. All the more, b/c in the fmr. USSR Armenia has been just about the only place where antisemitism on personal level (as opposed to government policies) was virtually non-existant.

[takeo]

Perhaps some Jews see the Holocaust as something unique, something that only the Jewish people have suffered. They don't want to aknowledge that unfortunately genocide has not only cursed the Jewish community. Of course the good relations with Turkey are certainly one of the causes too.
Armenians are not anti-semitic, and one of the most famous Armenian families, Aznavour (Aznavurian), both famous in France and Turkey, is Jewish. And in the former Soviet-Union (as well as in Romania), Jews and Armenians got along very well, even inside the CPSU and even in the Russian federation.
armenians do fight Muslims as well, but they don't identify with Israel, in fact i often heard the other way round. armenians described the armenian population in Nagorno karabakh as treatened by Azeri nationalism, and i often hear from people of armenian origin "we don't want to become like the palestinians, we will not become second-class citizens in our own historical country". On the Western front however most Armenians have accepted the fact that they will never be able to return to Eastern Turkey.

[elke]

From what I know of the Armenian genocide, it was indeed a horrible crime. It does not seem to have had the systematic, inexorable quality of the Nazi Holocaust though, which does not in any way excuse or mitigate the harm done. The only reason I can think of that this crime is not widely talked about is the importance of Turkey diplomatically and politically. Armenia finds itself in the same bind as Israel - its good graces are less important to the powers-that-be than those of its adversaries. Hence, the unequal and unfair treatment they receive from the international community.

Actually, from what I remember, the Armenians used to identify themselves with Jews quite a bit in Russia. They used to recount all the similarities between our peoples that exist on the collective level. I haven't heard of much antisemitism from Armenians either, and certainly never experienced it from any of the Armenians my family has known - of which there were many.

In addition, their food is awesome (especially the churchhella - walnuts strung on a string and covered with dried grape juice! Yum! Stupid comment, I know )

[takeo]

I love armenian and Georgian cuisine too, unfortunately you have to travel to Armenia or Russia to taste the real armenian kitchen

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
Perhaps some Jews see the Holocaust as something unique, something that only the Jewish people have suffered.

Some Frenchmen refer to the holocaust as a little detail in history. Is that how it goes?



Snip:


VIEWS AGAINST GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS
a. Is 24 April 1915 the day of genocide?
24 April 1915 is the day, in which the Ottoman government began to arrest the suspects of Armenian terrorism, violence and treachery. The declaration 24 April as the genocide date is as fictitious as the genocide allegations. On 24 April 1915, the Armenian Committee centers were closed, their documents were confiscated, and the leaders were arrested. The government by sending instructions to 14 cities has tried to prevent the events. 37 Following this instruction 2.345 people were arrested. If there had been a genocide occurred than the government would have arrested the entire Armenian population in Istanbul. This number was 82.880. 38 The Armenians exploits this date because the leaders of the revolutionists were arrested on this date.
b. Are the words of "sending" and "settling" carrying any implication of genocide?
Although some of the Armenian leaders have arrested and the Armenian Committee's were closed, the violent events had increased. The events that began in the big cities spread to the smaller towns and the security forces failed to maintain peace. The security forces were sending messages to the city centers and offering resettlement of the Armenian habitants. 39
Relocation was not implemented by loading the Armenians to ships or trains and deporting them out of the Turkish borders. This was a measurement to maintain the wholeness of the Empire that was loosing her lands. Despite all the negative factors, the Ottoman administrators executed the law with calmness. The essences, which will be obeyed during the immigration, were regulated by instructions. In these instructions every detail about the safety of the immigrants was revealed. One of them is given in Document 7, "the Regulation on Administration of Armenian properties and immovable properties, in the event of a necessary resettlement in wartime." The third and the fifth articles of the regulation on abandoned Armenian properties reveal benevolence of the government. Article 3: The type, quantity, and value of the property, the names of the owners will bee recorded and they will be sent to the places that would be used a depot such as schools, churches or houses, all the properties would be stored and a copy of the record would be given to the Commission of Abandoned Properties...
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/defa...p?belgeno=3752



Whatever happened to the Armenians doesn?t even come close to what fate the Jews in Europe suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

How can you even speculate what some Jews may or may not see?

Were the Armenians involved in terrorism against the Turkish government or not?

[takeo]

It doesn't really surprise me that you support Turkish fascism.

yes some french referred to the Holocaust as a detail of WWII-history, surprisingly enough it is your good friend Le Pen, who is hated by the majority of French but apparently loved in ultra-zionist circles for his anti-arab racism.
you can't compare genocides, there is no "better genocide", and there is certainly no justification for the murder on 100's of 1000's of people, and there are sufficient resources prooving the genocide against the Armenian people. You're a negationist.

I've noticed that, as usual, you use a very unbiased source...
the Armenians in Istanbul were not affected, that's right, but the whole of North-Eastern Turkey was etnically cleansed, and many families ended in the Syrian desert. People who support the etnic cleansing of the Palestinian people will not object to the Armenian genocide either, the site you mentioned seems to suggest that Armenians shouldn't have opposed Turkish government, this is also the most popular argument for supporting the etnic cleansing of Palestinians. Yes, the Turks had laws and they conducted the operations very efficiently, as the nazi's, the only difference is that they didn't registrate what happened during this "relocation", but the fact that 100's of 1000's of people just disappeared is proove enough.
btw: the Jews in Warsaw were active in "terrorism" against the German occupier too, enough reason for you to eliminate them? th abuse of the genocide as a legitimation for other warcrimes sounds even more cynical if it comes from people who defend or deny other genocides...

[L@mplighterM]

btw: the Jews in Warsaw were active in "terrorism" against the German occupier too, enough reason for you to eliminate them? th abuse of the genocide as a legitimation for other warcrimes sounds even more cynical if it comes from people who defend or deny other genocides...


I know all about the Jews in Warsaw and a matter of fact I posted an article about it. There’s no comparison here at all! None!!!

In any event I’m not denying that the Turks were brutal against the Armenians. Am I? There’s no justification for deliberate slaughter of human beings. None!


Le Pen isn’t my friend but I would support any government that sent the Radical Arabs and their supporters packing! I’m certain that anti Semitism would decrease 99.99999999999% (this may be exaggerated a bit) in France after such a move.

Further no one is engaged in ethnic cleansing in the WB and GS. No one except the Palestinians that are killing Jewish settlers!

[Mediocrates]

I would ask takeo how he feels about Turkey's permanent "always a bridesmaid never a bride" status with EU membership?

We hear conflicting messages - eg. the official and the real. One is about human rights abuses and they other is about the muslim population. I tend to see it as a little of both. The EU doesn't want to inherit some of Turkey's legacy of rights 'problems' nor do the main 5 - France, Italy, Germany, Benelux really want to open the floodgates to millions of Turkish muslims either.

I am puzzled though Greece's stance about not wanting to hold up a timetable for future discussions. Is this the obligatory "we really don't hate them" speech or do they have a real motive? Or, do they understand it will never happen anyway so why not put on a happy mask?

[takeo]

actually I think the Greek really want the Turks in the European Union, because it would put an end to the position of Greece as the "end of the world" for trade and "beginning of the world" for illegal immigration, a position which kept Greece in the position of the poorest and less devellopped country of the EU. For the same reason Germany always favored eastern expansion.
Turkey was not admitted because of three reasons:
1) human rights and democracy, in this respect Turkey is even worse than Croatia, yugoslavia, romania and Bulgaria, parties are banned, torture is still common, kurds still don't have any rights, etc.
2)economy: Turkey is in an economic crisis currently, and its infrastructure is not yet ready for entrance, but it is however better than most other balcans countries and even not so much worse than Poland (the reason why Bulgaria and Romania were not admitted is mainly economy)
3)Cyprus: Turkey still recognises the breakaway republic of Northern Cyprus and keeps troops there, which infuriated the EU.

Religion is not an issue here, it was never mentioned, and by the way Turkey isn't a very religious society. there is no more fear of massive immigration from Turkey, most Turks who had the opportunity already immigrated and Turkey is nowadays mostly a transit-country for Asian illegal immigration. (and there are other Muslim countries in Europe, such as Albania and Bosnia).
my opinion is that Turkey belongs to (Eastern) Europe and should be allowed, but first it should get rid of the militarist regime. the expectations are unfortunately that Turkey will be allowed together with Romania and Bulgaria, and ahead of former Yugoslavia and Albania, somewhere at the end of this decade.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
Religion is not an issue here, it was never mentioned, and by the way Turkey isn't a very religious society. there is no more fear of massive immigration from Turkey, most Turks who had the opportunity already immigrated and Turkey is nowadays mostly a transit-country for Asian illegal immigration. (and there are other Muslim countries in Europe, such as Albania and Bosnia).
my opinion is that Turkey belongs to (Eastern) Europe and should be allowed, but first it should get rid of the militarist regime. the expectations are unfortunately that Turkey will be allowed together with Romania and Bulgaria, and ahead of former Yugoslavia and Albania, somewhere at the end of this decade.

Islamic Fundamentalism is on the rise in Turkey even to the point where they'll gain ground in the comming election.