Home | Why're Israelis striving for a Jew Nation?
Don't you think Israelis and Palestinians can get along in ONE country if a secular constitution is set? If they all get to participate in the electoral process and choose their leaders?
The entire world is striving for this.
You have a completely wrong understanding of what the concept of the Jewish state means.Originally Posted by Asim Aquil
Israel is not striving to be Jewish in the way Saudi Arabia is Muslim. Israel is striving to be Jewish in the way France is French. If you get what I mean.
No. That's why I support the idea of a Palestinian state. Any nation that has achieved the level of political self-consciousness when it feels the need to rule itself (and the Palestinians have already arrived in this sense), will not settle for anything less than self-rule. Two fully fledged nations co-existing in one state will always feel that the other is intruding on their souvereignity, unless one of these nations is a minority that has its own national home elsewhere where it governs itself (so they could channel their political aspirations there without intruding on the neighbor's souvereignity).Don't you think Israelis and Palestinians can get along in ONE country if a secular constitution is set? If they all get to participate in the electoral process and choose their leaders?
One who wants his own house will not be satisfied by a room in a shared flat.
For what?The entire world is striving for this.
Because if you mean co-existence of different nations in a single state, no one strives for this. Not even Europe strives for this anymore. If you mean secular governments, a good chunk of the world is striving for exact opposite.
“This is a reality but I won’t deal with it in terms of recognizing or admitting it.â€
Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader
The need for a Jewish homeland is that the Jews, like most other nations, need a home of their own where they are in charge of themselves. Israel is not like the US. It is more like, say, Armenia. Jews were for centuries dependant on the kindness of the majority around them. They were for centuries under the assualt of assimilation into the majority communities. Now they have a home of their own. A "one state" solution merely means taking that home away from the Jewish nation, and once again putting them at the mercy of the surrounding population. In the end, it will just be another Arab state and the Jews will have to beg not to be Dhimmis. No thank you. If that's what you want, then you want war. You want domination, not co-existence. And if war is what you want...
More. So what'll be Jewish? Just a Jew Majority?
It doesn't have to happen immediately. But a Palestinian state (according to what the Palestinians want) and an Israeli state (as the Palestinians want) are both concepts that I think are no where close to being the majoritative opinion.No. That's why I support the idea of a Palestinian state. Any nation that has achieved the level of political self-consciousness when it feels the need to rule itself (and the Palestinians have already arrived in this sense), will not settle for anything less than self-rule. Two fully fledged nations co-existing in one state will always feel that the other is intruding on their souvereignity, unless one of these nations is a minority that has its own national home elsewhere where it governs itself (so they could channel their political aspirations there without intruding on the neighbor's souvereignity).
You have but one house. Your way is more like sharing. One nation is more like making everyone a part of one family.One who wants his own house will not be satisfied by a room in a shared flat.
Not doable? You know you're probably right. The paradigms that Israelis and Palestinians live in today, its probably not doable. But changing paradigms... Thats doable.
Right now religion is what defines Israelis and Palestinians. More on that... lemme just clarify this:
Secularism duu! In Pakistan we're trying to become a "Progressive Islamic Nation". Which is mostly a Muslim majority but secular ideals. Where a Hindu Pakistani and a Christian Pakistani is an equal Pakistani to one thats Muslim and of any sect. So are atheists.For what?
When has Europe had a constant history of "striving for co-existence". Its always had bad apples. Weren't the Jews persecuted a little while back in modern History? Same thing's happening with Muslims today over there.Because if you mean co-existence of different nations in a single state, no one strives for this. Not even Europe strives for this anymore. If you mean secular governments, a good chunk of the world is striving for exact opposite.
But co-existence is being worked out between several states of India. Between 4 separate nations living in Pakistan. Between 7 nations living in UAE.
You see they're not defined by their ethnicity, they have common NATIONAL goals. How else do you think you protect the tyranny of the majority over the minority? National goals.
This will take time. But its a REAL solution if worked out and sought after.
Of course much of your willingness towards this will depend upon How Jewish should Israel be?
Why should there be a Jewish Nation at all? There shouldn't be a Christian and an Islamic nation either, for that matter, btw.
You guys are Jews.
When Pakistan was founded, Jinnah said this in his speech:
That is the ultimate goal humanity as a whole should strive for.You will find that in the course of time, Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state.
That's nonsense though as every nation or people has a home, somewhere. As long as Arab culture insists on a triumphalist policy of antisemitic extermination - however you want to put quotes around it then an essentially Jewish state is a requirement there.
Why, why, why?
Because that's reality.
Pakistan is a Muslim nation. There are 56 other Muslim nations. But you want to take advantage of the numbers and deny the Jews their one and only state.
Its cynical, and disingenous.
What if 300 Million Chineese Bhuddists moved into Pakistan/were born in... would you be saying the same thing? I don't think so.
The reality of the situation you are promoting would be an end result of dhimmitude or expulsion or even genocide of the Jews of Israel. I think you know that, which is troubling.
We're not dealing in utopian fantasies here.. reality.
But you can't be saying that such a paradigm is impossible. You don't need a home. Your Jewish sites would remain, Jewish sites. For example its not Mecca we value, its the Ka'abah.
What's Islam's home? Saudi Arabia? Bwhaha yea right
What kind of rights would the minority have in a Jewish state? What if Muslims outnumber Jews in Israel someday?
I heard a strange talk about this on NPR today in the context of Iraq or Ireq, depending on your point of view. At any rate it went something like this >> is the nation state an anachronism?But you can't be saying that such a paradigm is impossible. You don't need a home. Your Jewish sites would remain, Jewish sites. For example its not Mecca we value, its the Ka'abah.
What's Islam's home? Saudi Arabia? Bwhaha yea right
What kind of rights would the minority have in a Jewish state? What if Muslims outnumber Jews in Israel someday?
But that's entirely abstract intellectual exercize.
get real
the jews have bent over backward to make peace
give peace
they laid peace over the bodys of there died daughters and sons
the whole world is not trying to fix this the world is very happy the killing going on in Israel and not in there own back yard
now the terror has spilt over on to other soil "the whole world wants this to end"
if you look at things historicaly you will see that the world has been unfarely on the side of TERROR
never support the the arab who has in the past stood for peace
Pakistan was not always a Muslim nation and its back on a path of correction. Pakistan was formed for the minorities of India. Muslims just form the largest minority.
Also you're missing the point that there really shouldn't be any Islamic nation either! Because no Islamic nation has ALL Muslims. And every country should have all of its citizens treated equally. I personally, as a Pakistani Muslim find out offensive that Hindus and Christians shouldn't have as much rights as I do.
Eep overpopulation. And yes I'd be saying the same thing if they pledge their allegiance to Pakistan, its secular constitution and its national interests and not Buddha. And I think there already are such people. Thats how it should be.What if 300 Million Chineese Bhuddists moved into Pakistan/were born in... would you be saying the same thing? I don't think so.
And I doubt you'd be welcoming in all the Muslims of the world once you go secular. You'd have immigration laws too right? Infact your immigration wouldn't depend upon religion.
Secularism, take no substitute.
the world had to give some atonment for what went down in world war 2
so the throw the remaning jews a bone
a small peice of desert land covered in malaria filled swamps
Yes, Jewish majority, Hebrew as a primary state language and dominance of Jewish culture on the level of state symbols (flag, insignia, Saturday as a day off, celebrating national holidays).
In Israel, it very much is the majority position. This forum may not quite reflect it because of relatively heavy presence of the extreme right (which is probably in the nature of politics related forums, they tend to attract extremes from both sides).It doesn't have to happen immediately. But a Palestinian state (according to what the Palestinians want) and an Israeli state (as the Palestinians want) are both concepts that I think are no where close to being the majoritative opinion.
Asim, my friend, if you had my experience of living in shared flats for nearly a decade, you would know that even the best of friends can become bitter enemies because of the lack of privacy.You have but one house. Your way is more like sharing. One nation is more like making everyone a part of one family.
Even in one house, it is preferable to live on different floors.
Persuading a nation to give up their desire for independence? It never happened in history before, and never will.Not doable? You know you're probably right. The paradigms that Israelis and Palestinians live in today, its probably not doable. But changing paradigms... Thats doable.
Right now religion is what defines Israelis and Palestinians.
I don't think either Israelis or Palestinians would agree with that statement.
But will a secular Pakistan cease being a Pakistani state?Secularism duu! In Pakistan we're trying to become a "Progressive Islamic Nation". Which is mostly a Muslim majority but secular ideals. Where a Hindu Pakistani and a Christian Pakistani is an equal Pakistani to one thats Muslim and of any sect. So are atheists.
I was referring to the recent EU attempt to gradually merge Europe into a supra-national entity and erase national borders. It sounded very "progressive" and the people liked it at first, but stopped liking it the moment they were asked to submit to a unified supra-national Constitution.When has Europe had a constant history of "striving for co-existence". Its always had bad apples. Weren't the Jews persecuted a little while back in modern History? Same thing's happening with Muslims today over there.
I see what you are saying, but such co-existence is only workable if the minorities either haven't reached the level of self-awareness at which they develop the desire for self-rule, or if they have a national home elsewhere to which their political aspirations can be channeled. Simply put, a Gypsy minority can exist anywhere because the Gypsies did not yet mature politically to the point of wanting their own homeland. A Pakistani minority, however, can exist in any country only for as long as there exists an independent Pakistan to which they can retreat if they feel mistreated and which can stand up for the rights of the diaspora. If Pakistan was to be conquered by China or India, the Pakistanis would not submit to the new ruler no matter how well they would be treated in the "unified" state.But co-existence is being worked out between several states of India. Between 4 separate nations living in Pakistan. Between 7 nations living in UAE.
You see they're not defined by their ethnicity, they have common NATIONAL goals. How else do you think you protect the tyranny of the majority over the minority? National goals.
It is no more a "real" solution that merging Pakistan and India back together to stop the fight over Kashmir.This will take time. But its a REAL solution if worked out and sought after.
“This is a reality but I won’t deal with it in terms of recognizing or admitting it.â€
Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader
Fine,
You are a secularist. Get rid of all but one of the Muslim states, and invite in majority threatening other religions, and then we can talk about Israel.
Ps - what is the REALISTIC outcome, based on what you know of Islam today and the Pal Arabs, of such a one state solution? How large a risk of genocide and/or dhimmitude would you ask the Jews to take? What about the ability to protect their own family through their own army?
Forget ideas and utopias - lets talk REALITY.
Again I repeat, secularism's not a euphemism for Jew Genocide or Islamic superiority.
But all the world's Jews would be = the 1 Billion Muslims. Globally.
Tell me, why should your Muslim fellow citizens be 2nd class Israeli citizens?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks