How Jewish is Israel?

water · 10-12-2005, 11:59 AM

if we beleived you that arab are second class person
the made themself that
you even have to put down a dog that will not stop bitting

Toga · 10-12-2005, 12:12 PM

Can the moderators ban that ugly anti-Semitic virus?

Asim Aquil · 10-12-2005, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Toga

Can the moderators ban that ugly anti-Semitic virus?

You actually made head or tail of that?

**MGB8** · 10-12-2005, 12:40 PM

Are Muslims really 2nd class citizens in Israel, or are they like Greeks in Turkey or Italians in France - except for there are some adjustiments for the reality of the Arab attempt to committ genocide on the Jews around them?

Considering Arabs in the Israeli parliament, voting, on the supreme court... can you really back up that statement?

What makes a Muslim in Israel (as opposed to the territories - this is a more complicated issue) a "2nd class citizen." That it is not his national home? How is that different from the Kurd in Armenia, etc. etc.?

Asim Aquil · 10-12-2005, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by MGB8

Are Muslims really 2nd class citizens in Israel, or are they like Greeks in Turkey or Italians in France - except for there are some adjustiments for the reality of the Arab attempt to committ genocide on the Jews around them?

Considering Arabs in the Israeli parliament, voting, on the supreme court... can you really back up that statement?

What makes a Muslim in Israel (as opposed to the territories - this is a more complicated issue) a "2nd class citizen." That it is not his national home? How is that different from the Kurd in Armenia, etc. etc.?

Good points. How about I let you answer those questions... along with this one.

How Jewish is Israel?

temme.

**Mediocrates** · 10-12-2005, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Again I repeat, secularism's not a euphemism for Jew Genocide or Islamic superiority.

But all the world's Jews would be = the 1 Billion Muslims. Globally.

Tell me, why should your Muslim fellow citizens be 2nd class Israeli citizens?

They aren't. Imagine if they were pogrommed from the Maghreb like all of the Jews? Eh? what's that?

Asim Aquil · 10-12-2005, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Mediocrates

They aren't. Imagine if they were pogrommed from the Maghreb like all of the Jews? Eh? what's that?

But that'd make it a secular state of Israel... with a Jewish majority population.

America's a Christian majority population right? Its secular.

What else? What you guys have Jewish laws applied in court?

**Womble** · 10-12-2005, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Good points. How about I let you answer those questions...

But he answered it. Israeli Arabs are full Israeli citizens, who have all the rights including the right to elect and to be elected. Arabic is the second state language. There are a number of Arab Knesset members, some from the big parties and some from the Arab parties. There is an Arab judge in the Supreme Court, and he is not there on a "minority quota". In a way, they have one right more than the Israeli Jews have- because the Arabs are exempt from the army service while I, for example, wasn't.

Are there equality issues? Most certainly, but the overwhelming majority of them are caused by the security situation that has developed as a result of the Arab hostility to Israel and the Palestinian terrorist attacks.

How Jewish is Israel?

temme.

Didn't I already give you your answer?

Asim Aquil · 10-12-2005, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Womble

But he answered it. Israeli Arabs are full Israeli citizens, who have all the rights including the right to elect and to be elected. Arabic is the second state language. There are a number of Arab Knesset members, some from the big parties and some from the Arab parties. There is an Arab judge in the Supreme Court, and he is not there on a "minority quota". In a way, they have one right more than the Israeli Jews have- because the Arabs are exempt from the army service while I, for example, wasn't.

Are there equality issues? Most certainly, but the overwhelming majority of them are caused by the security situation that has developed as a result of the Arab hostility to Israel and the Palestinian terrorist attacks.

Didn't I already give you your answer?

Well I'm just confused then.

Why do you call yourself a Jewish state and the homeland for Jews. Sounds like a Homeland for Arabs as well, since all are equal.

Ok lemme ask you a bunch of questions. one by one.

What are the equality issues?

**Womble** · 10-12-2005, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Well I'm just confused then.

Why do you call yourself a Jewish state and the homeland for Jews. Sounds like a Homeland for Arabs as well, since all are equal.

*Sigh*

Israel is, by and large, a secular state. A few "warrior atheists" would probably disagree somewhat, but the fact remains that Israel is not governed by the religious law.

This, however, does not prevent Israel from being a Jewish state, in the sense that it is a state created by and for the Jewish nation. Minorities in Israel have equal rights, but Israel remains Jewish by the virtue of having a Jewish majority and by the virtue of Jewish history and traditions being reflected in state symbols and holidays.

Israel would stop being a Jewish state if the Jews became a minority in it, thus becoming subjects of another nation rather than a nation that rules itself. Which is why maintaining a Jewish majority is such a big issue here. The only reason such issues do not currently exist in other democratic states is that in most of them the title nation is not in danger of losing its demographic dominance in the foreseeable future. A number of European states in which the minority population has exceeded 30% already show signs of fearing the "demographic time bomb" (which explains the French headscarf ban, among other things), even though their situation is nowhere as volatile as that of Israel.

What are the equality issues?

The real ones or the ones commonly sited by propaganda?

**MGB8** · 10-12-2005, 01:28 PM

Asim,

I think you are falling into the old "what is a Jew" trap.

Judaism is not "just" a religion. In reality, it is a set of tribes, the "children/nation of Yisrael" who happen to have an associated religion. Belief is not a pre-requisit for being a Jew. On the other hand, once you convert out, you have disowned your tribe - disafiliated.

So when you ask "how Jewish is Israel?" its hard to answer. Israeli is the nation home for the tribes know together as "Jews." It therefor has, to a degree, which is very much fought over (as you can see by some of these threads) religious based laws. On the other hand, so does the US or any other nation - national holidays, blue laws, etc.

But the reason for Israel's very existance is to provide these tribes, the Jews, a national home where they are not at the mercy of the masses around them, or at least have the ability to use force to defend themselves. When you are in a nation, the nation has "the monopoly on the use of force." So Jews would never have real impact on the use of force, and sometimes a nation's force would be used against the Jews. Israel is supposed to be the solution for that - sure, the police force etc. could be used against the Jews - but never again for genocide. Now the Jews could use real force to resist genocide and subjugation.

A "one state" solution takes that away, and once again, the Jews have no defense against genocide and subjugation. Therefore, its is NOT AN OPTION. Period.

**Womble** · 10-12-2005, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by MGB8

Israeli is the nation home for the tribes know together as "Jews." It therefor has, to a degree, which is very much fought over (as you can see by some of these threads) religious based laws.

Actually, unless you are referring to the definition of who is a Jew under the Law of Return, this isn't true. What little religioun related laws we have here are an unfortunate result of an idiotic political compromise between Ben Gurion and the religious parties at the creation of the state. Ben Gurion was so hell bent at not allowing the Revisionist Zionists into the first government of Israel that he allowed the Agudat Israel beards to have their way on some issues. These laws are being gradually dismantled.

**MGB8** · 10-12-2005, 03:31 PM

Sabath sales/work?

Plus the law of return... in terms of "home of the Jewish people."

Mira · 10-12-2005, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Secularism duu! In Pakistan we're trying to become a "Progressive Islamic Nation". Which is mostly a Muslim majority but secular ideals. Where a Hindu Pakistani and a Christian Pakistani is an equal Pakistani to one thats Muslim and of any sect. So are atheists.

Do you foresee the day when Pakistan and India are rejoined?

...excuse this...I see it's already been asked.

Mira · 10-12-2005, 03:53 PM

As much as I like to bag on the French, I really do dig French culture. I don't bag on the Italians, and the feeling is the same for them. I also really appreciate some aspects of Japanese culture. There are plenty of people who can become French, Italian and Japanese nationals and be assimilated into the culture and then there are those who become nationals and don't assimilate. I want for my people the same opportunity, the same kind of national experiment that the French and Italians have, which is something different than the United Sates has. What you want, Asim, is to reproduce and plant the United States around the world. I love the United States. I am very thankful for its existence and the inspiration that it lends to the other nations (perhaps not in recent memory, but you know what I am talking about here). But I don't want the entire world to be the United States. I want to live in a world with a little more character than that. I want to see what each unique national experiement produces (including the various Islamic experiements) and then I want all of our various countries to benefit from that, to learn from each other and use our differences to reflect more wholly on ourselves.