How Jewish is Israel?

[Mediocrates]

But that's unworkable as solutions go. And no one will give them credit for self defense. No it's better as was the Gaza withdrawal to let them fester and fail on their own. Let them open their own borders and point out that they've made zero effort to better themselves, economically, socially or politically. Point out that Job One is to, as always, accomplish nothing except strengthen the criminal enterprise that is Palestinian politics. Then in 3 years when it all looks like Somalia, shrug and say "They kind of told us themselves that this is what would happen."

As far as the Iranian love pile is concerned, he only said what 100 countries believe - some of them officially. That Hamas or the Palestinian goat herder union agrees is significant of nothing. Maybe they can get the ex PM of Malaysia to give a speech. Remember that we live in a world where officially blessed UN international conferences consist of dirty protestors screaming 'Death to Israel' as part of the official proceedings. Why would some hack who doesn't know how to shave and who got appointed as Rafsanjani's bitch boy say anything different?

[SteveK]

I probably know many more languages then you do, and considering that this is an informal internet chatroom it is not reasonable to expect perfect spelling.

The simple way to explain how we Israelis got our land is that we were a majority in many areas of British Mandate Palestine, the British wanted to give each group the right to self determination which would create a jewish, and Arab Country, and the UN agreed and so did what we call "Partition".

Israel's life is based on the principles of Self-Determination, not the Bible.

We had to hold the land with the sword true, and it is also true that we took land in defensive wars to use as cards at the peace negotiations.

Being called an athiest by a pig like you SteveK is a great compliment.

Cato,

'Cato' spells a joke in any language. You talk like the Jewish Homeland came into existence and was approved like some curriculum by a school board.

You, the little farce of a teacher, is now making her lesson plans based on what her bosses told her to do. The children must be educated that the Jewish heritage of 3,500+ years is now null and void because that's what the approved textbook has you teach.

Give your little lecture to the world and the Arab nations. They have graded you already as the occupiers of Arab land, the murderers who inherited, and the war criminals.

You Israeli atheist brazen dogs hold nothing in your hand to play. Your only move now is to do just what you are doing NOW,--- appeasing and surrendering to Arab terrorism and world anti-semitism.

[SteveK]

Jorge:

When you can express yourself as yourself, please address a post to me.

Otherwise, I have no intention to run after you along your winding trails,
your contorted pathways, eating your dust.

And, following all those people who are talking for you line by line by line ...

From whom or whose multiple personality did you get this line:

This land is His, of course, but so is Alaska and Patagonia, as well as all the stars and galaxies. Why to talk of His Land, as if He had special property rights here, more substantial than in anywhere else?

You don't even have a sense of the Jewish heritage.

Jesus!!! Mother Mary!!! and Joseph!!!

[Jorge]

Quotes from Mediocrates Post #131:

Why wouldn't Israel give up controlling borders between Gaza and Egypt, between the West Bank and Jordan, and so on? It would make no difference either way. Either Israel attempts to keep them on lock down, or they are simply allowed to open their borders to yet more warlords.

Regarding your proposal about the borders between Gaza and Egypt and that between Jordan and the WB, I tend to agree with you. Egypt and Jordan are perfectly capable of guarding those frontiers if they wished to do so. I think they would because, to them, terrorism is as much of a menace as it is to Israel. In fact both countries have a good record of fighting terrorism and, to judge by the results, theirs are as good as ours.

Re., your other point, quote:

"Believe me, the Palestinians are more interested in war and failure, the
Palestinian 'cause' than they are statehood at the end of that cause. "

Although it is plausible that Palestinians may more interested in war than statehood, I can’t believe they are interested in “war and failure” . Whatever their flaws they are not that stupid. I say it is plausible because, if we judge them not by their intentions, but by their deeds, they have little to show to prove the contrary for the last 10 years. Problem is that, on the same basis, judging by deeds and not by intentions, couldn’t we say the same about Israel?




__________________

[MGB8]

Hmm... Israel gave the PA autonomy over much of the WB and Gaza. They continued to funnell money to the PA, even armed them. The PA had an airport and a port, before they (re)turned to war. The Pal Arabs established hospitals and universities under Israeli control, and their life expectancy and average income massively increased.

Meanwhile, Israel is more or less a success economical and livably. Israel has the rule of law, a pretty darn good economy, especially given the circumstances, and a decent, if far from perfect, government administration of the public sector.

And then there is the Gaza withdrawal...

Hmm...

bias, anyone?

Israel wants neither war, nor can it be credibly accused of failure. To do so reveals that politics is trumping reality for you, Jorge.

[Mediocrates]

Although it is plausible that Palestinians may more interested in war than statehood, I can’t believe they are interested in “war and failure” . Whatever their flaws they are not that stupid. I say it is plausible because, if we judge them not by their intentions, but by their deeds, they have little to show to prove the contrary for the last 10 years. Problem is that, on the same basis, judging by deeds and not by intentions, couldn’t we say the same about Israel?

I'm a believer in national characters. I believe that the Palestinians are more interested in the fight than they are succeeding. I believe they are politically terrified of getting exactly what they've been demanding. Their leadership has played the failure card over and over to their advantage in fact it's a key part of their foreign relations. No one has any interest in collecting the garbage or running the post office or any of the mundane things it takes to run a country. Instead they will come to the world and explain how it is someone else's fault and someone else's problem. And even when they come to the US as Abbas did recently, their very inability to wangle any new concessions seems to play as a succes of failure. No I'm afraid that Palestine is one Independence Day away from being a failed state.

[Jorge]

From MGB8’s Post #135:

No. The "peace camp" are the extremists. Extreme defeatists. Extremely arrogant and maybe racist …or, they are just anti-zionist/anti-semetic scum …
This Thread sometimes literally overflows with by foul and abusive language. Since the Moderators don’t seem unduly worried about it, we’ll have to learn to live with that sort of language. I thought that my humble contribution to this Forum could be to explain some of those abusive words and thus, at least learn something from them.

Let’s take for starts “SCUM”, used in the above quote to qualify the Israeli peace camp.

SCUM may stand for: “Super Careful Users of Margarine”, but I don’t think MGB8 meant it in that sense. Neither I think he meant it as “a film of impurities that can form on the surface of a liquid “ as in my Dictionary; I rather think he intended it in its common slang use, that is:

“A person or an element of society that is regarded as despicable or worthless.”

If so, he might have used : “the despicable peace camp” which amounts to the same but it’s not considered foul language as “scum” is (but I suppose that it would be too much to ask).

People are not usually aware that ‘scum’ (which comes probably from the Middle Dutch word ”schum”) has strong social class connotations. It was and it’s still used by the upper classes as a derogative term for ‘the masses’ or populace; hence its synonyms: rabble, riffraff, thrash.

The most common use in a sentence seems to be “the scum of the earth” which is the opposite of “the salt of the earth” . The Salt of the Earth( melach haharetz) is widely used in contemporary Hebrew to designate people, mostly sabras, that distinguished themselves as pioneers, army men, intellectuals,political leaders.People like Ytzhak Rabin, Ezer Weizzman, Moshe Dayan, Ygall Allon, Ytzhak Navon, Amos Oz, etc.,(to quote only some of the most famous) are usually called ‘salt of the earth’ . Curiously most of them were identified or close to the so-called Peace Camp. Just goes to show how flexible language can be.

[Mediocrates]

Is there even a peace camp anymore? It seems that Sharon coopted all of them and now 'peace' consists of Israel doing pretty much whatever it feels like unilaterally. This may or may not be a useful policy but in so far as it carries the policies of the Oslo era forward; no. It's a foregone conclusion that era is dead. So railing against the peace camp is like shooting at sand dunes I think.

[SteveK]

[...]

I thought that my humble contribution to this Forum could be to explain some of those abusive words and thus, at least learn something from them.

[...]

Just goes to show how flexible language can be.

Jorge:

Yes, and word play is all that 3,500+ years of Jewish heritage means to you:

This land [Israel] is His [God's], of course, but so is Alaska and Patagonia, as well as all the stars and galaxies. Why to talk of His Land, as if He had special property rights here, more substantial than in anywhere else?

[minusthejihad]

Jesus!!! Mother Mary!!! and Joseph!!!

Hey! That's a Zappa quote. I didn't know you were a Zappa fan!?!

[SteveK]

Hey! That's a Zappa quote. I didn't know you were a Zappa fan!?!

If he's a diaspora Jew, then I hate him.

[minusthejihad]

Sorry, not a Jew. Not an Idiotarian either. But I'm sure you can hate him as well, he was pretty secular but died of Cancer. According to you, he was probably smited.

[KettleWhistle]

According to you, he was probably smited.

http://p203.ezboard.com/ftruechristi...picID=86.topic

[minusthejihad]

http://p203.ezboard.com/ftruechristi...picID=86.topic

Krazy Krishtans!

[MGB8]

Actually, the key word was anti-semetic, antizionist.... as there were other categories... defeatists... arrogant... possibly racist, dismissive, or just Arabists.

So Jorge, do you believe that there are anti-semites who are not scum? Or do you believe anti-semites are "salt of the earth."

Btw, nice way to post a reply that means exactly... nothing. More empty rhetoric from lefties, not dealing with the reality of the situation, and trying to weasel out of designating as extremists those who actually care about not risking their family's lives too much. Those who don't pay attention to the reality of the situation, those who don't care about the question "what if I'm wrong", and those who ignore and/or dismiss the claims of their own in favor of those who want to kill them and their family (presuming, of course, that Jorge is Israeli, which is doubtful from previous incarnations on this board)...

on the other hand, there are those who want to smile at Jews as they lead them to the slaughter. those people too are scum. Or muderers. Whichever word you want to use.

From MGB8’s Post #135:

No. The "peace camp" are the extremists. Extreme defeatists. Extremely arrogant and maybe racist …or, they are just anti-zionist/anti-semetic scum …
This Thread sometimes literally overflows with by foul and abusive language. Since the Moderators don’t seem unduly worried about it, we’ll have to learn to live with that sort of language. I thought that my humble contribution to this Forum could be to explain some of those abusive words and thus, at least learn something from them.

Let’s take for starts “SCUM”, used in the above quote to qualify the Israeli peace camp.

SCUM may stand for: “Super Careful Users of Margarine”, but I don’t think MGB8 meant it in that sense. Neither I think he meant it as “a film of impurities that can form on the surface of a liquid “ as in my Dictionary; I rather think he intended it in its common slang use, that is:

“A person or an element of society that is regarded as despicable or worthless.”

If so, he might have used : “the despicable peace camp” which amounts to the same but it’s not considered foul language as “scum” is (but I suppose that it would be too much to ask).

People are not usually aware that ‘scum’ (which comes probably from the Middle Dutch word ”schum”) has strong social class connotations. It was and it’s still used by the upper classes as a derogative term for ‘the masses’ or populace; hence its synonyms: rabble, riffraff, thrash.

The most common use in a sentence seems to be “the scum of the earth” which is the opposite of “the salt of the earth” . The Salt of the Earth( melach haharetz) is widely used in contemporary Hebrew to designate people, mostly sabras, that distinguished themselves as pioneers, army men, intellectuals,political leaders.People like Ytzhak Rabin, Ezer Weizzman, Moshe Dayan, Ygall Allon, Ytzhak Navon, Amos Oz, etc.,(to quote only some of the most famous) are usually called ‘salt of the earth’ . Curiously most of them were identified or close to the so-called Peace Camp. Just goes to show how flexible language can be.