How Jewish is Israel?

[Womble]

Sabath sales/work?

Ever been in Germany on Sunday? The same "dead day", the same laws prohibiting shops from opening...

[ProudInfidel]

Why're Israelis striving for a Jew Nation?

Don't you think Israelis and Palestinians can get along in ONE country if a secular constitution is set? If they all get to participate in the electoral process and choose their leaders?

The entire world is striving for this.

Why're Israelis striving for a Jew Nation?
>The same reason pakistani's strived for a muslim nation.

Don't you think Israelis and Palestinians can get along in ONE country if a secular constitution is set? If they all get to participate in the electoral process and choose their leaders?
> Why cant pakistani's get along with indian's??, Why did pakistan chose to be a islamic republic instead of a secular republic and loves dictatorships instead of a democracy.

The entire world is striving for this too.

And save your cr@p for yourself, and stop spamming, by opening new thread's.

[Cato]

But that'd make it a secular state of Israel... with a Jewish majority population.

America's a Christian majority population right? Its secular.

What else? What you guys have Jewish laws applied in court?

If you wish to talk to an Evangelical Congregation you will be told America is a christian country with seperation of church and state, not to mention the USAF most of whom also believe that.

Israel granting equality to Arabs does not make it a secular state any more then England granting equality to jews makes it a secular state.

Just as England is christian Israel is jewish. Yes you are right one of the major factors that makes Israel a jewish state is having a jewish majority. There is also language since Israelis speak Hebrew, culture since aspects of judaism such as the Sabbath has become a part of secular culture (The Weekend is Saturday), and some symbols.

England is a christian state because they call themselves a christian state (The English), aspects of christianity influence English Culture, many national symbols are from christianity in origin, and it has a christian majority population.

Israel is as secular as England, no more, no less, and England has been a great influence on Israel in terms of providing a modell to follow for the early zionists.

[Toga]

The UK should be the last country Israel needs to emulate. The White British colonizers caused death, pain and destruction to the indigenous people from Australia to Africa. The world is still reeling from the criminal acts perpetrated by her Majesty's subjects.

Also, please learn something, when the Jews introduced compulsory education to the common Jewish folk, the British kings and queens were still illiterate.

[Cato]

The UK should be the last country Israel needs to emulate. The White British colonizers caused death, pain and destruction to the indigenous people from Australia to Africa. The world is still reeling from the criminal acts perpetrated by her Majesty's subjects.

Also, please learn something, when the Jews introduced compulsory education to the common Jewish folk, the British kings and queens were still illiterate.

The modell of Britain at home was what I was talking about. The Early Zionists were never influenced by England's Colonial Experience, they were influenced by the English Government and institutions at home which were secular democratic and christian, since they were seeking to create the same thing just substitute christian for jewish.

It isn't really deniable that the early zionists were Anglophiles, some more so then others.

[NiekNL]

Why're Israelis striving for a Jew Nation?

Don't you think Israelis and Palestinians can get along in ONE country if a secular constitution is set? If they all get to participate in the electoral process and choose their leaders?

The entire world is striving for this.

What are you thinking?
Then it wouldn't take long before the majority is Muslim,
and even shorter before Israel is a Muslim state.

[Toga]

The modell of Britain at home was what I was talking about. The Early Zionists were never influenced by England's Colonial Experience, they were influenced by the English Government and institutions at home which were secular democratic and christian, since they were seeking to create the same thing just substitute christian for jewish.

It isn't really deniable that the early zionists were Anglophiles, some more so then others.

Democracy is in the Jewish DNA. I don't think the Israelis are trying to emulate the British system. Since you are Israeli you know well that Jews are meshugas (nuts). We hardly can agree on anything. The Jews have great appreciation and respect for the law but no respect for the living Israeli leaders or authority. Can you imagine a Jewish king or queen? If any Jew would claim that he/she is a king/queen they would have laughed him/her off and sent him/her to a good psychiatrist.

[Ferdie]

Pakistan was not always a Muslim nation and its back on a path of correction. Pakistan was formed for the minorities of India. Muslims just form the largest minority.

Pakistan was made for muslims since it was based on your two nation theory. All non-muslims in Pakistan are second class citizens as per your law, and face persecution untill they convert to islam.

I personally, as a Pakistani Muslim find out offensive that Hindus and Christians shouldn't have as much rights as I do.

So what's being done it to make the non-muslims equal to muslims in Pakistan?

[Womble]

Democracy is in the Jewish DNA. I don't think the Israelis are trying to emulate the British system.

Actually, Israel's political system is very heavily based on the British model, and even some of our laws were inherited directly from Britain.

Can you imagine a Jewish king or queen?

Why, every Jewish mom rules her kingdom with an iron fist, and woe to those who disobey

[Asim Aquil]

*Sigh*

Israel is, by and large, a secular state. A few "warrior atheists" would probably disagree somewhat, but the fact remains that Israel is not governed by the religious law.

This, however, does not prevent Israel from being a Jewish state, in the sense that it is a state created by and for the Jewish nation. Minorities in Israel have equal rights, but Israel remains Jewish by the virtue of having a Jewish majority and by the virtue of Jewish history and traditions being reflected in state symbols and holidays.

Israel would stop being a Jewish state if the Jews became a minority in it, thus becoming subjects of another nation rather than a nation that rules itself. Which is why maintaining a Jewish majority is such a big issue here.

Thats what I thought too. Such ideas have been prepped up for Pakistan too. I might not be a "warrior atheist" but I'm "diplomat secularist". So bear with me.

How would Pakistan ensure a Muslim majority? Outbreed everyone else? Thats not healthy for a nation either. Will you prevent conversions?

How can you ensure a Jew Majority?

The real ones or the ones commonly sited by propaganda?

I'm not familiar with either. So take your pick or tell me both.

Asim,

I think you are falling into the old "what is a Jew" trap.

Hmmm well I'm trying to stay more on the "What is an Israeli" side.

Do you foresee the day when Pakistan and India are rejoined?

...excuse this...I see it's already been asked.

Interesting actually... Worthy of another thread, would a Pakistan-India joined/disjoint thread be allowable here?

[Cato]

Democracy is in the Jewish DNA. I don't think the Israelis are trying to emulate the British system. Since you are Israeli you know well that Jews are meshugas (nuts). We hardly can agree on anything. The Jews have great appreciation and respect for the law but no respect for the living Israeli leaders or authority. Can you imagine a Jewish king or queen? If any Jew would claim that he/she is a king/queen they would have laughed him/her off and sent him/her to a good psychiatrist.

If anyone tried to impose himself/herself as a king/gueen of the jews or of Israel he/she would be dragged into a mental institution.

I am not saying most Israelis are trying to emulate Englaand, only that the early zionist officials and first Israeli Officials did modell Israel partially on Britain.

David Ben Gurion was as big an anglophile as they come, so was Theodre Hertzl, and Golda Mier, and Aba Eban. Name any important early zionist and I will show you what his/her views on England were. Not their views of the British Empire, they did feel that Africa was wrongly being exploited, but the Empire isn't what they looked at.

If you compare Israel's code of laws to Britain's you will find that most of Israel's laws are very similar to those of England, and that many of them are exactly the same.

As a secular democratic but christian nation it was natural that people who were seeking to create a secular democratic jewish state would look to England as an influence.

It isn't a bad thing that Israel was influenced in it's prestate years by Britain, Britain influenced most of the world, including France it's traditional enemy, America (American Bill of Rights is exactly the same of Englands), Italy, and Japan just to name a few.

[Asim Aquil]

Why're Israelis striving for a Jew Nation?
>The same reason pakistani's strived for a muslim nation.

To escape the persecution of the extremist Hindu zeal?

Replace that (Hindu) with Islamic/Arabic?

Don't you think Israelis and Palestinians can get along in ONE country if a secular constitution is set? If they all get to participate in the electoral process and choose their leaders?
> Why cant pakistani's get along with indian's??, Why did pakistan chose to be a islamic republic instead of a secular republic and loves dictatorships instead of a democracy.

Pakistan chose to become a secular state for ALL Indians at its conception. It didn't become an Islamic Republic, until the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan and under the influences of General Zia from there on. That was back in the 70s.

The entire world is striving for this too.

And save your cr@p for yourself, and stop spamming, by opening new thread's.

Isn't this the 1st thread I made?

[Womble]

Thats what I thought too. Such ideas have been prepped up for Pakistan too. I might not be a "warrior atheist" but I'm "diplomat secularist". So bear with me.

How would Pakistan ensure a Muslim majority?

See, you are again falling into the same trap. The correct analogy would be "how would Pakistan ensure a Pakistani majority" if they were about to be outnumbered by, say, the Indians or the Chinese.

Outbreed everyone else? Thats not healthy for a nation either. Will you prevent conversions?

How can you ensure a Jew Majority?

This is a very difficult question. I am not sure I can answer it- I don't think anyone can at the moment- but this does not disprove my claim that two nations that are politically self-aware enough to want self-determination can be forced to share a state.

If you look back into history, you will see that it never worked before. A group of people who define themselves as a nation and want their own state cannot be satisfied by being a minority in someone else's state. It's not a matter of equal rights. Look at the map- the Franco-Canadians seek to secede from the Anglo-Canadians, the Flemish and the Vallon population in Belgium barely get along and there is a lot of talk about partition, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia both fell apart along the ethnic lines as soon as the dictatorial regimes were removed. Neither is a case of seeking equal rights, both are a case of nations wishing to rule themselves.

In most cases, it is resolved by the territorial divide- the two nations split the area into two pieces along the ethnic lines. This, basically, is why a Palestinian state is necessery. The problem with Israel and the Arabs, however, is that territorial sacrifices are not easy to make in this neigborhood. Because of the Arab hostility, Israel has to maintain at least minimal defensible borders. Moreover, the Arab territorial claims are not limited to any part of the territory in question, so they will not be satisfied no matter how big a part of land is offered to them.

I'm not familiar with either. So take your pick or tell me both.

Well, you can, I suppose, pick up the propaganda claims on any number of pro-Palestinian websites. They will tell you, for example, that Arabs in Israel can't buy land (they will, however, forget to tell you that Jews or Christians in Israel can't buy land either, there is virtually no private land ownership here). Other frequently raised claims are the higher poverty and unemployment rate among the Arabs- but interpreting these as discrimination is too much of a stretch. Arab poverty is largely caused by their preference of traditional lifestyle (many Beduins still insist on nomadic lifestyle and refuse to settle in the towns built for them), excessively large families and the fact that women are often prevented from getting education and profession, or from working at all. What else... Ah yes, Arabs are exempt from the army service so they do not receive the benefits for which military service is the pre-requisite. But hey, they CAN volunteer for the army if they want to serve.

The real issues are mostly those of security. Arab looking people are more frequently stopped for security checks, they are not allowed to work for the companies with defense contracts or companies working in the security related fields. This is an unfortunate outcome of Palestinian terrorism. If the war is over, this, too, will be over.

Another real problem is the lease of JNF land. Israel has no private ownership of land, all land is state owned- except for about 12% of Israel's land reserves that belong not to the state, but to the Jewish National Fund, a private organization that used to purchase lands in Palestine for Jewish settlement since the beginning of the 20 century. These lands were given to the state to administer on condition that they will only be leased to Jews, so the state had no way around this demand. However, this was deemed a violation of the anti-discriminatory laws by the Attorney General in January this year, and the JNF will most likely be forced to discard the demand.

[KettleWhistle]

Why're Israelis striving for a Jew Nation?

Don't you think Israelis and Palestinians can get along in ONE country if a secular constitution is set?

Not the issue here. It is about Jewish independence, about living in your country, on your native land. Like any other nation-state.

[Asim Aquil]

Not the issue here. It is about Jewish independence, about living in your country, on your native land. Like any other nation-state.

Hmmmm "Jew" is not a nationality right? Be Israelis who're Jews or Muslims or Atheists.