Judaism and Child Marriage

[Agnosthiest]

Does judaism allow child marriages. What is the youngest? What are your comments on this article:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...l/judaism.html

Sometimes one has to read a passage twice to believe what has been written in the Sacred Books of Judaism: what has been decreed the way to a holy life by the "sages of blessed memory... whose words are the natural sounds of Judaism" [131]:


Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]
R. Nahman bar Isaac said. "They made the decree that a gentile child should be deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15], so that an Israelite child should not hang around with him and commit pederasty [as he does]."
For said R. Zira, "I had much anguish with R. Assi, and R. Assi with R. Yohanan, and R. Yohanan with R. Yannai, and R. Yannai with R. Nathan b. Amram, and R. Nathan b. Amram with Rabbi [on this matter]: 'From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]'? And he said to me, 'On the day on which he is born.' But when I came to R. Hiyya, he said to me, 'From the age of nine years and one day.' And when I came and laid the matter before Rabbi, he said to me, 'Discard my reply and adopt that of R. Hiyya, who declared, "From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]? From the age of nine years and one day."'
[37A] Since he is then suitable for having sexual relations, he also is deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [of Lev.15]."
Said Rabina, "Therefore a gentile girl who is three years and one day old, since she is then suitable to have sexual relations, also imparts uncleanness of the flux variety."
That is self-evident!
Abodah Zarah 36B-37A [133]


The basis for these rulings is the following Mishnaic passage of Tractate Niddah (filth):


A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."
And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility.
If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye.
(Mishnah Niddah 5:4) [134]

Thus, one "of the many important issues worked out in the Mishnah concerns proper conduct with women," [135] and the "entire society of Judaism – that is, the community formed by the Torah – found in the Talmud those modes of thought and inquiry, those media of order and value, that guided the formation of public affairs and private life as well." [136]

While it is reassuring to see there was at least some limit as to what the sages would declare holy and moral, this ruling had severe implications on the interpretation of other topics as well. The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of Moses to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children:

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known a man by sleeping with him.(Num 31:17).
[This] refers to her who has slept with a man as well as her who is suitable for intercourse, even when she has not slept with a man...
But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. From here R. Shimon b. Yohai used to say: a Proselyte girl who became a proselyte in the age of less than three years and one day, is rendered fit to marry into the priesthood." [137]

According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, Moses therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]

[Mediocrates]

I'd have to read my own Mishnah and check it out. I'm not convinced that out of context quotes from an Islamic site that makes frequent references to neo Nazism is the best choice.

[Justcurious]

Why can't these "philosophers" write in plain English? If they have something to say, the should be able to say it in a few words.

[Mediocrates]

A casual analysis though leads me to this. The section refers to Moses' order to destroy a city and kill most of the idolators living there save for small children. The point is that anyone who is not a virgin must be killed. The age reference I think is an oblique comparison that any child, a PAGAN child who might have been already raped (under the age of 11-12) might still technically be a virgin since the hymen could forseeably grow back, in this case, in a child about the age of three. The declaration is for the Rabbi to specifically examin the child's hymen to see if it has already been punctured and grown back. If it has grown back - and the point here is not AT that age but FROM that age, then the child is technically a virgin.

I will check my own Mishnah to see if this a misquote flying around the internet.

[KettleWhistle]

Does judaism allow child marriages. What is the youngest?

Traditional age of majority is 12 for girls and 13 for boys. Those quotes are just opinions of some rabbis, and nothing more. There is absolutely nothing in the scripture to that regard. Nor does anyone marry 3-year-olds, LOL.

[Mediocrates]

Yes a girl can have a B'nei Mitzvah at 13 or 12 at which time they are technically permitted to marry unless civil law overrides that. In the Talmud it states that a girl of 11.5 who wants to have a B'nei Mitzvah (Bat Mitzvah) must be questioned by Rabbis to evaluate her sincerity and to examine whether she is being pressured into it.

[Agnosthiest]

The youngest age a female can reach full physical maturity is age 12. So personally I dont see any problem with a culture allowing 12 year olds to marry.

But the article describes a rabbi who has the opinion that a 3 yr old can be engaged in sex. Is there really such a rabbi? How common is that opinion in judaism?

[Mediocrates]

No what' it's saying is that the equivalent of finding out whether one is a virgin or not must be applied. Yes it is obscure.

[KettleWhistle]

12 is the age at which most females reach puberty, not physicial maturity. Pregnancy at such age is very dangegerous because the hips haven't developed properly. Either way, it all has to be viewed in context, including the historical one, i.e. giving consideration to the lifestyle and practices of the time.

In the ancient times when death from disease or in battle was common, people did get marry that young, and often had some ten children by the age of 25, in pretty much every culture. They had to do that, or otherwise the population would die out. On the contrary, some Medieval Jewish communities in Eastern Europe had a practice of marrying 13-15 year old boys to women in their late teens to early twenties. That was done for purely practical reasons, which got nothing to do with religion. The women that age are fully developed and are ready for child-bearing, which the boys that age are just the right biological age "to be fruitful and multiply."

The scenario in the first post sounds like a discussion of an outlandish hypothetical scenario. There are tens of thousands of rabbis out there. Could there be one that thinks marrying 3-old to be appropriate? Well rabbis aren't immune to schizophrenia. Aside from that, like I said, you have to read what is being said in context to really know what it is they are talking about. Personally, I've never heard of anyone being married before reaching the age of 18.

[Canajew]

seems more of a comment on the culturs Judaism was exposed to than it does about Judaism, no?

[SteveK]

No what' it's saying is that the equivalent of finding out whether one is a virgin or not must be applied. Yes it is obscure.

Have you been medically tested for anything in Israel?

When I lived in America, the medical testing center, like an X-Ray specialist, would send the the report directly to my doctor who had requested the test.
Never did I get the opportunity to receive the test results directly,and read the technical language of the medical professional, the radiologist, interpreting my X-Ray.

But, here in Israel, the some clerk will give you an envelope to take with you, or you might have to come back in a few days to pick up the results, and then bring the results yourself to the doctor where you are a member at a health clinic. Then, your doctor interprets the results, and you go from there.

The few times that I have been medically tested here, I have witnessed what the people do who receive that envelope from the clerk with the results. All of us rip it open and read technical language that we really don't know how to interpret and how to apply the results to our own specific case.

How many people do you think have been almost shocked to death to learn by their own reading and interpretation that they have cancer?

The same is with the Talmud, the Mishna and the Gemara. These are highly codified and technical writings of the greatest of the Rabbinic sages centuries ago.

So, if you didn't devote the good part of your life studying daily in a Yeshiva with a Rabbi who studied with his Rabbi ... all the way unbroken back down to the source 2,000 years ago, and you are not one of these qualified Orthodox Rabbis, then you all should go to a qualified Orthodox Rabbi and
let him explain to you the technical and codified jargon of the Mishna and the Gemara and the Torah applied to the cases you have in mind.

[Mediocrates]

So I'm guessing that you yourself no valid thoughts on the matter then?

[Asim Aquil]

So I'm guessing that you yourself no valid thoughts on the matter then?

You've got to admit that was a great analogy.

All old cultures allowed child marriages. A lot of people have pointed towards The Prophet's marriage with Hazarat Aisha and said that he was a Pedo, where infact that was the norm of the Arabian culture of that time. They just checked to see if the girl is physically mature or not.

Thats why we don't have any recorded evidence of an objection from any corners of that time.

I'm guessing Mr. Rabbi is speaking based on his culture, rather than his religion.

[Aviva]

A lot of people have pointed towards The Prophet's marriage with Hazarat Aisha and said that he was a Pedo, where infact that was the norm of the Arabian culture of that time. They just checked to see if the girl is physically mature or not.

So you think that a 6 year old can really be physically mature enough to be a man's wife and have a fully sexual relationship with him?

I agree with SteveK in asmuch as the Mishnah and other Jewish scripture can't always be understood at face value.

[ygalg1]

Couple years ago in Russian cable channel there was a program shows a woman in age 20 that look like 70

She had sort of disease that cause to fast aging (real sad story made me drip a tear)

There also was a man in age 60 who look like 25



In general human live children are children.

These I mention above are exceptional events

If I am not mistaken some passages in the Talmud addresses to such feasibilities where a girl been question on her intention on marriage



There is a myth that Abraham was mature in age 3 (not physically but emotionally)

I know of pre marriage agreement where two families who found they have much in common and want to preserve that kind of relations through their children they make a pact that in the future the marriage between their children will take place

This kind of marriage conducted in most between Jews from Bukhara and Georgia and ilk