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Thread: Judaism and Child Marriage

  1. #16
    Asim Aquil
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviva
    So you think that a 6 year old can really be physically mature enough to be a man's wife and have a fully sexual relationship with him?

    I agree with SteveK in asmuch as the Mishnah and other Jewish scripture can't always be understood at face value.
    No I don't. But other records put her age as high as 13 yrs old. And the scientific knowledge they had at that time, would've justified her physical maturity to be sufficient for her to get married.

  2. #17
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    One thing you have to remember is that the modern laws determining the minimal age for being eligible to get married are arbitrarily set. A mere 100-150 years ago nobility girls were getting married at 15-16. Shakespeare's Juliet was 16 in the first edition, 14 in the final version. Hell, the average life span 2000 yars ago was 30-35 years, OF COURSE they married early. The entire social dynamics were different.
    “This is a reality but I won’t deal with it in terms of recognizing or admitting it.”

    Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader

  3. #18
    Aviva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble
    One thing you have to remember is that the modern laws determining the minimal age for being eligible to get married are arbitrarily set. A mere 100-150 years ago nobility girls were getting married at 15-16. Shakespeare's Juliet was 16 in the first edition, 14 in the final version. Hell, the average life span 2000 yars ago was 30-35 years, OF COURSE they married early. The entire social dynamics were different.
    Sure, I totally agree about teenagers being eligible for marriage much earlier in the past.

    I thought we were discussing sex and pre-pubescent children, though.

  4. #19
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    One can find many antisemitic sites that misquote Talmud, pervert passages from their context, etc. And I'm not sure how much general information about "What is Talmud?" has already been shared on this forum, so I'll merely stick to the passage mentioned, as I discussed in another forum:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alright, let's address one of Eldon's accusations (again):
    R. Shimi b. Hiyya stated: A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a priest.

    http://www.come-and-hear.com/yebamo...th_59.html#E158

    Raba said, It means5 this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this, (three years old) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye; but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a piece of wood...
    The above claimed Talmudic passage "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age" does not exist. It is erroneously sited by many of these Jew-haters as from "Yebhamot 11b." There is a tractate Bavli Talmud Yevamot, but therein 11b has no such passage.

    There is a passage in Bavli Talmud Ketubot 11b that is likely the source.:
    רמאק יכה אבר רמא,

    םולכ אלו הנטקה לע אבה לודג

    ימד ןיעב עבצא ןתונכ ןאכמ תוחפד.

    Rava [a fourth century Rabbinic authority] said: If an adult has sex with a girl under the age of three, it is ignored, for it is like putting a finger in someone’s eye [i.e., tears may drip from the eye but there will always be more tears to replace them; so too the hymen of a girl so young may break but it will heal].
    From this quote, antisemites argue that Judaism permits the sexual molestation of young girls. This, however, is not true. In fact, in several places the Talmud makes clear that Judaism possesses its own version of the American law of statutory rape. A formulation of this law may be found in the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Yevamot, pg. 33b:
    הנינ סנוא הנטק יותיפ.
    One who seduces an underage girl is considered as if he had raped her
    [i.e., the laws applicable to rapists would apply to the molester].

    An honest reading of the passage from Ketubot shows that it is part of a technical discussion regarding the evaluation of a woman’s ketubah – a reverse dowry that Jewish law requires a man to pay his wife in the event of divorce. A major factor in the determination of the ketubah in traditional Jewish law is whether the woman had been a virgin at the time of the marriage; virginity is considered a positive value that would enable the woman to claim a higher ketubah. The quoted passage indicates that if a girl had been molested before the age of three, she is still considered a virgin and is entitled to the higher ketubah. In no way does the passage or the discussion in Ketubot imply that it is permissible for Jewish men to molest young girls. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:2cVoK0E25fwJ:www.adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf+Ketubot+11b&hl=en

    The antisemites error in (mis)quoting Ketubot 11b as a nonexistent Yebahamoth 11b I attribute to the unlearned bigot's readiness to quote ignorantly anything that justifies their hatred without checking its verity—i.e. they have not even read the Talmud, let alone study it for understanding. Most bigots are typically lazy and are disinclined toward actual unbiased scholarship for purposes of truth and understanding. Their purpose is to promote hatred and bigotry and not be dissuaded by actual facts or truth.

    Ketubot 11b is concerned (as its name indicates: ketubot = mariage contracts) with dowries and brideprices. It has nothing to do with sexual relations.

    It is a financial discussion
    , not a sexual one nor a religious one. Again, the likely sentence of issue:
    Rav Yehudah said in the name of Rav: A male child who has relations with a female adult causes her to be like one who was injured with a stick... Rava said: This is what was meant - an adult male who has relations with a female child has not done anything because less than this [three years old] is like sticking a finger into an eyeball.
    Twisted out of context of the discussion on deciding dowries and among those ignorant of what the Talmud is, the Talmudic method of discussion, and the use of language (extreme example, analogies, metaphors, etc.), the uninitiated can be made fools of by the antisemites.

    The discussion here is regarding the justice in regard to brideprices for virgins and non-virgins, the former being higher, when the traditional "proof" of virginity, of blood from a broken hymen does not occur with consummation of the marriage, is not present. The Rabbis here state, by extreme example, that injury to the hymen before puberty from whatever source (or, oddly, but evenhandedly, loss of male "virginity") is considered for financial purposes of brideprice/dowries as "virgins." Thus the lack of blood on the marriage sheets is not cause for return or decrease in the brideprice, for a bride acknowledged and accepted as a virgin by the two families before marriage.

    Again, as in our initial overview of what is the “general” purpose of Talmud: the Law is for Peace. As author James Michener delightfully understands in The Source
    A Roman philosopher once asked a rabbi "What is Talmud?" The rabbi answered "Let me explain.

    There were two men who were on a roof and they climbed down a chimney. One's face became dirty and the other's did not. Which one washed his face?" "That's easy", said the philosopher, "the dirty one washes his face" "No. The one with the clean face looked at his friend and thought his own face was dirty, so he washed, while the other one saw his friend's clean face and thought his face was clean, too, so he didn't wash." "Then Talmud is reasoning"!

    "No. Let me explain again. There were two men who were on a roof and they climbed down a chimney. One's face became dirty and the other's did not. Which one washed his face?"" "The one with the clean face, right?" "Wrong!" There was a mirror and the one with the dirty face saw himself and washed his face." "Aha! Talmud is logic, then."

    "Of course not! How could two people climb down a chimney and one get dirty and the other one not?" "Oh, I see. It's all about common sense."

    "You foolish man", said the rabbi, "of course it's possible if the first one brushes away all the dirt."

    "Now I understand", said the philosopher. "The Talmud is all about getting at the basic facts."

    "No", said the rabbi, "Nobody can ever brush away all the dirt and nobody can ever get all the basic facts."

    "So what is Talmud?" asked the philosopher.

    "Talmud is about doing the best we can to uncover God's purpose in this world and find our role in it."
    With this ruling [Ketubot 11b], no bride is shamed. No family is dishonored. And the fact that sometimes virgin women do not bleed in their first sexual congress with their husband is acknowledged as a fact of life. In addition, and in greater understanding of G-d's Justice, this ruling even applies to Jewish girls who were raped--as would occur at times when Jews lived under foreign rule--including Muslim rule, btw. They were considered unsullied by the Jewish community under G-d, Blessed be His Name.

    Eldon's other oft-quoted accusations from hate sites are similar in distortion of the context, purpose, and meaning of these legal discussions. I could respect that they, in their false sense of "morals" (particularly moral prudery), object to the extreme/absurd examples given to make a point. I admit some who are ignorant of the Talmudic method and read such passages superficially could be offended. They merely do not understand what is being discussed.

    You may also wish to read: The Talmud in Antisemitic Polemics
    http://www.adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf

    More later.

    Respectfully,
    History

  5. #20
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    Re: Judaism and Child Marriage

    My mama is Jewish and my dad is Christian. I was raised in both beliefs going to both types of religious gatherings and celebrating all the holidays and traditions. I always thought of God as someone pure and holy and beautiful. Mostly because He created beautiful flowers and butterflies for me to enjoy. And anyone who creates gardenias and Bird Winged Butterflies must be a good God.

    Thank U Mediocrates-Moderator for answering this question. I also read on several websites about how my God allows child rape. I think my God and my religious beliefs are such a beautiful and pure thing so when I read the misinterpretation of these verses I became very upset. But your explanation makes perfect sense. They saved the little girls who were virgins but they wouldn't know if the 13 year olds were married unless they checked. Kinda gross that a priest had to be a make-shift gyno but that's the way it was back then.

    Also, that neo-nazi, Islamic website forgot to mention the type of societies that were destroyed. God only asked the Israelites to destroy really bad socieites. The kind that burned their own children with fire and drank blood and, most importantly, enjoyed killing Israelites. So that's why the verses were so tough against the people that they destroyed and that only little virgins were allowed to live. I don't see these verses as a justification to kill anyone nowadays, unless of course, some weirdo comes out of the backwoods thinking he is a vampire. Then I will just have to kick him in the face for being evil. But that is besides the point...

    Also, that Islamic website forgot to mention Exodus 22:17 --> A father has the right to refuse or authorize the marriage of his daughter with a man that raped her. If the father refuses then the rapists must still pay the bride price of a virgin. When I researched "bride price of a virgin" that is any price the father decides his daughter is worth. So if the father consents his raped daughter to be married, then its 50 shekels of silver. If the father does NOT consent and decides to keep the daughter he can still demand a bride price of a virgin and decide any amount, like 100 shekels of silver. So why would any father just consent to give his sweet daughter to some raping hog for only 50 shekels of silver when he can keep his daughter and require a virtual slave? Because no matter what, the rapists had to pay a money price for the rape of the virgin based on what the father wanted.

    I imagine that this kept alot of men honest back then because nobody wanted to be ordered to pay 1 million shekels of silver for a virgin they violated and could not marry. They would end up being slaves to the angry father who would probably make them clean up donkey poo for the rest of their days because of the rape.

    Anyways, sometimes finding faith is hard in this bizarre world. However, God is pure and beautiful despite the sinfulness of man in this world.

  6. #21
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    Re: Judaism and Child Marriage

    This is in response to the Guest writing about Rabbis allowing sex with toddlers...I forgot to put in the quotes but its on the first page and quite nasty.


    U can also read my comment on the next page. That Islamic website that you are referring to left out a important verses in Exodus. The Rabbi's comments are not listed in anything from the Torah or Bible that I have read. So it could be one crazy Rabbi quoting stuff and the creator of the Islamic website thought it would be fun to post it everywhere to make christians and jews look like backwater hoes. However, that rape nonsense was not what I was raised to believe.
    Last edited by meme; 11-12-2011 at 02:46 AM. Reason: Forgot to quote

  7. #22
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    Re: Judaism and Child Marriage

    There are a number of individuals and institutions actively engaged in the demonization of Judaism: the nazi turned revisionist historian Michael Hoffman (Judaism rediscovered) who claimed that Judaism is a pagan cult, the Russian fraudster Israel Shamir - I think he has a Swedish name these days - kn own to have widely written what he thinks is damning evidence, and a number of people actively engaged in demonizing Judaism as a religion just to get back at "the ultra-Orthodox," such as the anonymous Hebrew site Daatemet. In my view, it takes a small mind to confuse a religion with the actions of a few of its adherents.

    Never take a Talmudic quote at face value, you can be sure it is either taken out of context or it is fabricated, or else formulated in such a way that it slights Jews.

    My position - even though I am not a particularly religious person but it is my culture and I greatly admire it - is that Judaism is big enough to take it. Two great religions have sprung out of it, and as we know, imitation is the greatest expression of admiration.

  8. #23
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    Re: Judaism and Child Marriage

    Wow some great posts esp on pg 2, thank-you[s]!

    Man, "life", history and the world esp mdoern western system is a bizarre cruel place, some people have relationships with very young or huge age gaps (some reckon Joseph and Mary were such?) and/or with very many (eg Solomon had 600 concubines, Abe had 3 wives, David had (half-a-)dozen, Xerxes/Ahasuerus a harem full of virgins and 2 wives, Jacob had 4, etc), others like me are in late 30s-early 40s and have never even had a kiss/date/girlfriend and may/have for ever miss out. (There are people incl nephews/nieces who were born or children who i know/knew who are now married and having children while i am still alone, even Prince Harry.) One law for some and one law for others! Some have more, some have less/none.
    It is not for no reason that G'd hates fornication (because it hurts people who forever miss out on the shared first experience, and hurts people who have broken experiences and solo parents), and why monogamy is best for everyone. Do unto others as you would have done to you, loveyour neigbour as yourself.

    "(scientific) Maturity" is a half-truth/half-lie arguement, is a person mature in all ways? is it equal for everyone? is maturity being artificially stimulated by such a promiscuous etc society?.
    Looks aren't all age is either.
    Similarily i don't thik it is fair to argue that since we live longer now it is okay for some of us to be rejected until 40/s when others aren't.

    Pagan gentiles commited many attrocities they accuse jews/christians of. Even in my King Arthur research there are so many multiple relations etc.

    I didn't know a hymen could grow back, but you can't wipe out the memory experience (the shared first experience).
    I don't trust doctors much anymore after my negative experiences and things i've heard/read.

  9. #24
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    Re: Judaism and Child Marriage

    God only asked the Israelites to destroy really bad socieites. The kind that burned their own children with fire and drank blood and, most importantly, enjoyed killing Israelites. So that's why the verses were so tough against the people that they destroyed and that only little virgins were allowed to live. I don't see these verses as a justification to kill anyone nowadays
    I think that it was a command and not a request, just as God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Without Abrahams obedience there would not be an Israel or a Jewish nation today. I wonder how many people today would pass the same trial? a minority to be certain. We live in a democratic society where the will of the majority rules, which is to say that if Abraham had called a family meeting on the issue then .........?
    Today we have outgrown God, we are much smarter than our ancestors 3000 years ago so rather than being subservient to Gods will we can argue with him and his demands. They are now requests and we will decide whether we wish to oblige him or not in our democratic way.
    I see no difference in the societies you mention and societies that send their children out with explosive vests to kill innocent Jewish citizens. The problem in Israel is not because of the arabs, it's because the Jews are picking and choosing which commandments they want to obey using the democratic process. If they obeyed Gods will there would be no arab problem because there would be no arabs.
    It's a really tough one isn't it?

  10. #25
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    Re: Judaism and Child Marriage

    God commanded the Israelites remove any possibility of coming in contact with idolatry and heathenism. God did not command the Israelites to wipe them from the earth everywhere. A subtle but key difference.

  11. #26
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    Re: Judaism and Child Marriage

    Mediocrates wrote,
    God commanded the Israelites remove any possibility of coming in contact with idolatry and heathenism. God did not command the Israelites to wipe them from the earth everywhere. A subtle but key difference.
    Perhaps I should have been clearer when I said
    If they obeyed Gods will there would be no arab problem because there would be no arabs.
    When refering to the "Arab Problem" I made the assumption that readers would understand that I was talking specifically about the relationship between Israel and its local arabs and not about arabs elsewhere. The arab problems in other countries bear no import to Israel at all. My inference was to the following passage.
    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/text..._summary.shtml
    Moses records the journeys of the sons of Israel from when they were led out of Egypt by Moses and Aaron, from the first month of the fifteenth day, on the morning after the Pesach offering when the sons of Israel went out before the eyes of all the Egyptians. For God had struck them down with the death of the first-born, with judgment upon their gods. God talks to Moses. “Tell the people that when you cross into the land of Canaan, you shall drive out all people who live there and destroy all their symbols, idols and places of worship. I have given this land to you. If you do not drive out the people who live there then those left behind will become like a thorn in your side. They will oppress you as enemies in the land in which you dwell and, it will come to pass that what I had intended to do to them, I will do to you.”
    note the highlighted text. Another subtle difference hey?
    I just had a revelation. I now understand why there are so many Jewish lawyers.
    Last edited by farmboy; 11-13-2011 at 11:30 AM.

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