I would share two things with you. First, Karaites are a part of the World Jewry, as are numerous atheist Jews. And second, me being an atheist and me being an ethnic Hebrew/Jew are by no means exclusive concepts.Originally Posted by History
Home | I would share two things with you. First, Karaites are a part of the World Jewry, as are numerous atheist Jews. And second, me being an atheist and me being an ethnic Hebrew/Jew are by no means exclusive concepts.
Dear Kettle,
Thank you for your post.
1) Karaites are a part of World Jewry. They acknowledge the one G-d of Israel and consider the Tanakh G-d's Word. They are a very small sect of Judaism, however. They are entitled to their opinion, within "the fence of Torah," but this does not equate to they alone are correct and the far greater Jewish majority who accept the Torah and Talmud as authoritative are incorrect.
2) Atheists, by definition, deny G-d. This is something that a Jew, by definition, cannot do and remain a Jew. An atheist can be descendent of Jews, but like any apostate (e.g. convert to Christianity or Islam), once they leave the Jewish faith and its essential core belief in the One G-d of Israel, they are no longer part of the Jewish nation.
Judaism permits doubt, and thus agnostics, but denial of G-d, Blessed be He, is the antithesis of Judaism.
Judaism is more than eating matzah on Passover, lighting candles on Chanukah, or having a Bar Mitzvah. All those acts are symbolic and invested with Jewish belief in the One G-d, what He has done for us, and what we promised to "hear and obey" at the foot of Mount Sinai.
Jews are not a "race," and not merely a culture.
We are a people with shared purpose and responsibility under Hashem.
Without Hashem, one has no covenant, no Jewish faith, no Judaism.
I respect you may disagree, as do the "Messianic Jews" and "Jews for Jesus" and "Jews for Islam" etc., all of whom insist they are "Jews" despite their beliefs (or lack thereof) being contradictory of central Jewish Teachings.
>shrug<
You can't make chicken soup without chicken.
But I am always willing to listen. What do you believe makes you "Jewish"?
Respectfully,
History
Even though the writer says your Messiah will be a normal person, I couldn't find the reference to where that is written.
There are plenty of other writings....in the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and even the Koran that speaks of a Messiah that is super natural. So I will go with that and hope that you are suprised one day.
Where do the Muslims state this?Even though the writer says your Messiah will be a normal person, I couldn't find the reference to where that is written.
There are plenty of other writings....in the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and even the Koran that speaks of a Messiah that is super natural. So I will go with that and hope that you are suprised one day.
Perhaps you should begin with the reverse question:Even though the writer says your Messiah will be a normal person, I couldn't find the reference to where that is written.
Where in Hebrew Scripture does it say the messiah will be G-d Himself?
In Hebrew Scripture, G-d's annointed ones (which is what "messiah/moshiach" means) are all human: Saul, David, Cyrus, etc.
And the criteria for who the promised messiah will be and what he will do are well-described. It is based on these that we understand the promised moshiach has not yet arrived and (sadly) we must continue to wait and strive on our own to do G-d's Will.
For a brief overview re: Jewish teachings on the Messiah, see: http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm
Respectfully,
History
Jesus never died and will come back in the last days....sounds super natural to me. Thats the Koran view. They don't say that he is Allah however, if that is what you mean. (please don't make me read the Koran, AGAIN, just to find the reference).
Most Christians believe that God and Jesus are the same person.
Many Christians believe that God and Jesus are two different persons altogether. (thats the camp I am in)
All Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah and will return in the last days.
I think Muslims believe the same but they don't believe that Jesus is God, or that he is even the son of God.
I always thought that the Jews believe the Messiah would descend from heaven to save Israel from its enemies. I didn't know that he could be Mediocrates just waiting for the right time. Or SteveK, or anyone else that will become a great warrior and defeat the Arabs.
However, if half of Israel would rather go to a dentist than listen to SteveK talk of religion, how is this human Messiah of yours going to unify the nation and rebuild the Temple??
The Left may shoot him before he goes that far (they owe the religious big-time after their messiah was shot ten years ago).
So, the moshiach will be a normal human being? Will he be a prophet who talks to God at least? If he is versed in Jewish law and observant of its commandments, then he will be Likud? Will he defeat the enemies of Israel by pure military might or will God be helping him? It sounds like Stevek will get his Torah based government at that time. What will happen to Ophra?The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments. (Isaiah 11:2-5) He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).
This is interesting.
Ephraim:Even though the writer says your Messiah will be a normal person, I couldn't find the reference to where that is written.
There are plenty of other writings....in the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and even the Koran that speaks of a Messiah that is super natural. So I will go with that and hope that you are suprised one day.
Read Ezekiel 34: "... Thus said the Lord Hashem/Elohim: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have tended themselves! ..."
God speaks about returning the Davidic dynasty. This is about Moshiach, the Jewish Messiah.
Remember, God will be directly in the picture at this future prophetic time.
Moses was also indisputably a normal human being as was King David and his son King Solomon. Moshiach is just a descendant of King David through King Solomon. God is the only true force behind the success of these great Jewish leaders. Jewish history is much too long for us to be "surprised" otherwise. And Jews have their own books, and don't need any much much much later written second and third and fourth hand ones.
I'm reading your other posts on the topic, and I appreciate your trying to keep a safe distance from being accused of Christian missionary activity here,--- with such a clever act of playing dumb with an American smarta$$ twist.
No intention of being a Missionary; why waste my time on a Jewish or Muslim forum?? Now if this were an Evangelical forum you could accuse me of being a missionary.
I am just telling you what I believe, to compare and contrast what you and others believe. All religions have a certain amount of truth to them. Some have more and some have less. By understanding other religions you begin to understand the people.
For example. Why are Jews so bent on changing the world; inventing Communism etc. Well, I have learned that it is because this world is all there is to most Jews. They don't spend much time thinking about the afterlife. They need to create a heaven on earth. To be a "good Jew" you have to be trying to "better" the world you are in today.
That is what Judaism 101 that History showed me essentially says.
Now I understand why so many Jews are behind Liberalism, Communism et. al. It is their attempt to "better" the world today and now.
In speaking with Muslims I also learn what drives them. Why fight the Kuffars, why suicide bomb, what is their version of the future etc. etc.
Missionary? Nah.
So when did God wash his hands of the Jews and stop talking to them? Moses? Joshua? Daniel? Jerimiah? Ezekiel? Why talk to them 3,000 years ago and not talk to them today?
Are the prophecies of 3,000 years ago more valid than the prophecies of 2,500 years ago?
Did God say everything he had to say to the Jews (or mankind for that matter) 3,000 years ago?
Are we living in a different world today that those who lived 3,000 years ago?
Are our challenges different in some ways?
Are we in the most important time period of mankind...the last days?
I would not poo-poo modern revelation from God or you may miss your Moshiach when he does come again; and accuse him of straying from some of the words written 3,000 years ago for a different people living in a different time.
Yes, God's words are everlasting. But he probably does have something to say of worth to you today that are not written in a book that is 3,000 years old.
Revelation from God? We don't need it, because we had it 3,000 years ago!
Methinks you could use another Jewish prophet...problem is, will he be received even less well than the ones you had between 3,000 and 2,000 years ago.
Isn't that what you are fighting for? If you build a Torah nation and create an environment that fosters a more righteous people...wouldn't you hope to be worthy of another great Jewish prophet? I would hope so.
Jesus never died and will come back in the last days....sounds super natural to me. Thats the Koran view. They don't say that he is Allah however, if that is what you mean. (please don't make me read the Koran, AGAIN, just to find the reference).
Most Christians believe that God and Jesus are the same person.
Many Christians believe that God and Jesus are two different persons altogether. (thats the camp I am in)
All Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah and will return in the last days.
I think Muslims believe the same but they don't believe that Jesus is God, or that he is even the son of God.
I always thought that the Jews believe the Messiah would descend from heaven to save Israel from its enemies. I didn't know that he could be Mediocrates just waiting for the right time. Or SteveK, or anyone else that will become a great warrior and defeat the Arabs.
However, if half of Israel would rather go to a dentist than listen to SteveK talk of religion, how is this human Messiah of yours going to unify the nation and rebuild the Temple??
The Left may shoot him before he goes that far (they owe the religious big-time after their messiah was shot ten years ago).
He is believed to be a human man with greater wisdom than even Soloman, who will unite the Jewish people and bring us back from our backsliding ways to a torah nation. A potential messiah exists in every generation, but until we are ready to receive him, we are ourselves a stumbling block to him. I remember reading a long time ago something along the line of some Sage having argued that unless the Jewish people prepare themselves for this Messiah, that our redemption could be delayed indefinetly, while another Sage argued that if we don't prepare ourselves, that G-d will raise up a leader or leaders whose decrees towards us will be worse than those of Haman until we cry out in mercy with true repentance. Since this didn't happen after Hitler, I hate to think of what it is going to take. In any event, many observant Jews in an attempt to lessen the pangs of this redemptive process busy themselves with trying to get Jews to study torah, and to fill the world with mitzvot.
what does judaism say abt the return of prophets elisha and enoch to the jews, before the messiah comes? The christian view is that they will surely come, before jesus returns and prepare jews for his coming.
the muslim view compares the actions of these two men to 2 dajjals whom muslims must fight. I found it very strange.
Excellent post Mira.
My scriptures speak of both the Messiah AND a great leader in Israel who will be called a King David in the last days. IE two different people.
The second David is not very well articulated in our scriptures but sounds to me like the same person you would call your Moshiach. Someone who would restore the Jews/Hebrews to their God just as you have said, and prepare them for the person we call the Messiah.
Very interesting. I will read up on it more and report back.
Enoch doesn't play much of a role in Rabbinical Judaism with only some minor references to him as having become the angel Metatron, but he's not an ordinary angel, and was even confused for a second deity by one torah Sage in a well known piece of talmudic literature. He records the deeds of the Nation of Israel and is Israel's advocate before the Heavenly Court. Elijah according Torah will arrive before the Messiah to announce his arrival, which is why Jews are required to set a place for him at the dinner table every Pesach. When I was a kid, my dad told me that when G-d wants to test us to see if we are ready for Moshiach, He sends Elijah dressed as a homeless person/beggar, so I'm not sure that it's just on Passover when Elijah is to make this announcement.
Cool. And I meant to say..." cry out for mercy with true repentance." Anyhow, I'm spending too much time on the internet....
-Take care.
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