Never trust Her Majesty's subjects. They are venomous snakes!

[Ossian]

Ossian if you think Jack Straw is anything other then a terror appeaser please explain this comment (Which has nothing to do with Israel).

"I do not believe that a regime change in Iran would be possible NOR DO I BELIEVE IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING"

Jew or not anyone who believes that overthrowing the Mullahcracy from a rebellion coming withing (Which will be coming soon) would be a bad thing should not be head of the Foriegn Services of any country.

Ok Cato, here goes:

I think he meant a regime change resulting only from the military intervention from Western countries...like in Iraq, not that a regime change would'nt be beneficial. I think his words have possibly been taken out of context.

If it is a rebellion coming from within, of Irananians who want Iran to change from being an international pariah and live free lives (yes i am aware of the horrors committed in Iran especially against educated women). Then yes the West should support them. Not enforce regime change from the end of a long range missile. Or possibly this option would only acceptable if there is PROOF of an immediate and realistic threat to it's Middle Eastern neighbours or Western citizens.

[Muslima]

Muslima tell me if you disagree with this, but it is my personal theory that the reason Muslim Nations are doing so pathetically and have so much religious bigotry in them is because of a refusal to drop ancient glories and accept they don't lead the world, and so instead of concentrating on the present they concenctrate on the past.

Cato, this is not true.

The colonial misadventures, and oppressive regimes are the reason for the failed societies today, though they are slowly but surely changing. Islam is not the reason. The Quran tells you to seek knowledge, and the Prophet encouraged learning etc. Nor is it a fixation with past glories, since most of these countries are living under oppressive regimes, who use religion as a tool to suppress. (They abuse it in other words)

But this is changing...

[Muslima]

Muslima,

The simple response to that is that Muslims stole the knowledge from Zoroastrians... The African empires also were at the forefront of knowledge... until they were conquered...

Nevertheless, its irrelevant. What is relevant is how people are interpreting and applying Islam today. The Taliban argued that they were applying "pure" Islam... and they were more backwards than most.

What i said to Cato before applies to you too, and in addition

Islamic civilisation did not steal anyone's inventions or ideas. It goes
without saying that a scientist./inventor/pioneer, usually expands on an
idea of his predecessor. This is a riduculous analogy, made by those who
want to discredit Islam's contribution to civilization.

If you want to believe this then you it stands to reason you will also
believe that Nobel Prize winners stole the knowledge of their forbears and
expanded on it. Are you going to say this about Einstein and other great
names?

The Nobel Prize Laurautes have only been in existence since what 1900's?
Jews in Europe , even though their numbers were small, have a higher
percentage of the prizes. To use your logic, it would be perfectly in order
to say that they "stole" the knowledge of their host countries and claimed
it as their own?

So Cato, and MGB8, a question for you both, :-

Would you say that the Jewish nobel laureates "stole" the knowledge of their
host societies?

Anyway, below are references that highlight Islam's indisputable
contribution to civilization. The first 3 links are from respectable NON
MUSLIM sources, so you can't say they are biased.


How Islam has kept us out of the 'Dark Ages'
http://www.channel4.com/science/micr...icscience.html

Timeline of Islamic science and technology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...and_technology

List of Muslim scientists and philosophers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...d_philosophers

Legacy of Islam
- Muslim Personalities
Glimpses of Renowned Scientists and Thinkers of Muslim Era
http://www.amaana.org/ISWEB/contents.htm

Muslim contribution to science, art, technology, medicine and civilization
http://www.muslimheritage.com/Default.aspx

Muslim Scientists and Scholars
On this site you can read fascinating accounts of some of the most talented
Muslim scholars in history whose contributions have left lasting marks in
the annals of science, astronomy, medicine, surgery, engineering and
philosophy.
http://www.ummah.net/history/scholars/


Timeline of Islamic Scientists (700-1400)
This chart depicts the lifes of key Islamic Scientists and related writers,
from the 8th to the end of the 13th century. By placing each writer in a
historical context, this will help us understand the influences and
borrowing of ideas.


701 (died) - Khalid Ibn Yazeed - Alchemy

721 - Jabir Ibn Haiyan (Geber) - (Great Muslim Alchemist)

740 - Al-Asmai - (Zoology, Botany, Animal Husbandry)

780 - Al-Khwarizmi (Algorizm) - (Mathematics, Astronomy)

787 - Al Balkhi, Ja'Far Ibn Muhammas (Albumasar) - Astronomy,
Fortune-telling

796 (died) - Al-Fazari,Ibrahim Ibn Habeeb - Astronomy,
Translation

800 - Ibn Ishaq Al-Kindi - (Alkindus) - (Philosophy,
Physics, Optics)

808 - Hunain Ibn Is'haq - Medicine, Translator

815 - Al-Dinawari, Abu-Hanifa Ahmed Ibn Dawood - Mathematics,
Linguistics

836 - Thabit Ibn Qurrah (Thebit) - (Astronomy, Mechanics)

838 - Ali Ibn Rabban Al-Tabari - (Medicine, Mathematics)

852 - Al Battani ABU abdillah (Albategni) - Mathematics,
Astronomy, Engineering

857 - Ibn MasawaihYou'hanna - Medicine

858 - Al-Battani (Albategnius) - (Astronomy, mathematics)

860 - Al-Farghani (Al-Fraganus) - (Astronomy,Civil Engineering)

884 - Al-Razi (Rhazes) - (Medicine,Ophthalmology, Chemistry)

870 - Al-Farabi (Al-Pharabius) - (Sociology, Logic, Science,
Music)

900 - (died) - Abu Hamed Al-ustrulabi - Astronomy

903 - Al-Sufi (Azophi - ( Astronomy)

908 - Thabit Ibn Qurrah - Medicine, Engineering

912 (died) - Al-Tamimi Muhammad Ibn Amyal (Attmimi) - Alchemy

923 (died) - Al-Nirizi, AlFadl Ibn Ahmed (wronge Altibrizi) -
Mathematics, Astronomy

930 - Ibn Miskawayh, Ahmed Abuali - Medicine, Alchemy

932 - Ahmed Al-Tabari - Medicine

936 - Abu Al-Qasim Al-Zahravi (Albucasis) - (Surgery, Medicine)

940 - Muhammad Al-Buzjani - (Mathematics, Astronomy, Geometry)

950 - Al Majrett'ti Abu-alQasim - Astronomy, Alchemy, Mathematics

960 (died) - Ibn Wahshiyh, Abu Baker - Alchemy, Botany

965 - Ibn Al-Haitham (Alhazen) - Physics, Optics, Mathematics)

973 - Abu Raihan Al-Biruni - (Astronomy, Mathematics)

976 - Ibn Abil Ashath - Medicine

980 - Ibn Sina (Avicenna) - (Medicine, Philosophy, Mathematics)

983 - Ikhwan A-Safa (Assafa) - (Group of Muslim Scientists)

1019 - Al-Hasib Alkarji - Mathematics

1029 - Al-Zarqali (Arzachel) - Astronomy (Invented Astrolabe)

1044 - Omar Al-Khayyam - (Mathematics, Poetry)

1060 - (died) Ali Ibn Ridwan Abu'Hassan Ali - Medicine

1077 - Ibn Abi-Sadia Abul Qasim - Medicine

1090 - Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) - Surgery, Medicine

1095 - Ibn Bajah, Mohammed Ibn Yahya

1097 - Ibn Al-Baitar Diauddin (Bitar) - Botany, Medicine,
Pharmacology

1099 - Al-Idrisi (Dreses) - Geography, World Map (First Globe)

1091 - Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) - ( Surgery, Medicine)

1095 - Ibn Bajah, Mohammad Ibn Yahya (Avenpace) - Philosophy,
Medicine

1099 - Al-Idrisi (Dreses) - (Geography -World Map, First Globe)

1100 - Ibn Tufayl Al-Qaysi - Philosophy, Medicine

1120 - (died) - Al-Tuhra-ee, Al-Husain Ibn Ali - Alchemy,
Poem

1128 - Ibn Rushd (Averroe's) - Philosophy, Medicine

1135 - Ibn Maymun, Musa (Maimonides) - Medicine, Philosphy

1140 - Al-Badee Al-Ustralabi - Astronomy, Mathematics

1155 (died) - Abdel-al Rahman AlKhazin - Astronomy

1162 - Al Baghdadi, Abdellateef Muwaffaq - Medicine, Geography

1165 - Ibn A-Rumiyyah Abul'Abbas (Annabati) - Botany

1173 - Rasheed AlDeen Al-Suri - Botany

1184 - Al-Tifashi, Shihabud-Deen (Attifashi) - Metallurgy, Stones

1201 - Nasir Al-Din Al-Tusi - (Astronomy, Non-Euclidean Geometry)

1203 - Ibn Abi-Usaibi'ah, Muwaffaq Al-Din - Medicine

1204 (died) - Al-Bitruji (Alpetragius) - (Astronomy)

1213 - Ibn Al-Nafis Damishqui - (Anatomy)

1236 - Kutb Aldeen Al-Shirazi - Astronomy, Geography

1248 (died) - Ibn Al-Baitar - ( Pharmacy, Botany)

1258 - Ibn Al-Banna (Al Murrakishi), Azdi - Medicine, Mathematics

1262 (died) - Al-Hassan Al-Murarakishi - Mathematics, Astronomy,
Geography

1273 - Al-Fida (Abdulfeda) - ( Astronomy, Geography)

1306 - Ibn Al-Shater Al Dimashqi - Astronomy, Mathematics

1320 (died) - Al Farisi Kamalud-deen Abul-Hassan - Astronomy,
Physics

1341 (died) - Al-Jildaki, Muhammad Ibn Aidamer - Alchemy

1351 - Ibn Al-Majdi, Abu Abbas Ibn Tanbugha - Mathematics,
Astronomy

1359 - Ibn Al-Magdi,Shihab-Udden Ibn Tanbugha - Mathematic,
Astronomy

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/islam10.html

[KettleWhistle]

This is a riduculous analogy, made by those who want to discredit Islam's contribution to civilization.

The only Islam's contribution to some civilizations consist of it's religious writings. Accomplishments of the above-listed Muslims have nothing to do with the religion. Just like accomplishments of Jews who won Nobel prizes have nothing to do with Judaism.

[Toga]

Barbara J. Stock
November 11, 2005


The wedding had been set for after Ramadan on November 9, 2005 in Amman, Jordan. A young couple was celebrating their future lives together and sharing their joy with 300 friends and family. This scenario is not so different from weddings in Chicago or London or Sydney. The bride was lovely in her white gown and the groom was handsome in his tuxedo. The only difference for this couple is that their marriage will start by burying their fathers and eight other family members instead of a honeymoon.

As this Muslim couple celebrated the beginning of their new lives together, a stranger wandered into the wedding hall, placed himself in the heart of the happy crowd, and blew them and himself to bits. This wedding and its guest were the victims of an Islamic attack on a "soft target."

The term "soft target" is code for innocent civilians that are much easier to kill than heavily armed soldiers. And the killing is what it is all about for these Islamics. This couple and their guests were Jordanian, and Jordan has been assisting the West, specifically America, in fighting Islamic terrorists. Therefore, any citizen of Jordan is a fair target for Islam. A verse from the Quran states, "Slay the transgressors where ever you find them." This young couple and people at the two other sites in Amman were considered "transgressors." Nearly all those killed were Muslim.

While some in the Islamic world will be outraged and claim that these murderers are not "true Muslims," it is a simple fact that those suicide bombers and those that sent them are following the Quran to the letter.

Last week, the authorities in Australia were luckier. What was reported as a "significant attack" on Australian civilians was thwarted before it could be carried out. Islamic cleric Abu Bakr, a strong supporter of bin Laden and terrorists around the world, was arrested as the ringleader of the group.

This has been a busy week for Islamics. The liberal media has tried to blame the riots in France and now Belgium and Germany on "high unemployment" and lack of jobs rather than admitting it was Muslims sensing a chance to tear something apart and shoot at police. This was a chance for Islam to test the system and the government it hates. It also exposed western Europe's dirty little secret.

The dirty little secret is that most western European countries, have "no-go" zones. These "no-go" zones are Muslim neighborhoods and the police and firefighters do not enter these neighborhoods unless they absolutely must do so. These "zones" belong to Islam and all non-believers enter at their own risk. Non-Muslims on the fringes of these "Islamic zones" suffer violent attacks from roving bands of Muslim men and boys patrolling "their" territory. The outrage is that this behavior has been allowed. Europe is just beginning to pay the price for hoping their Islamic problem would just go away if Muslims were just left alone.

In Iran, lovely television shows directed at small children teach these children that it is a joy to become a suicide bomber in defense of Islam. The children are taught that Allah will be pleased with them if only they die killing the enemies of Islam.

In the ten minute film, translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute, a young Palestinian boy must watch as "evil" Israeli soldiers beat and kill his parents and brother. The boy then joins a "resistance" group who will help him avenge the deaths of his family. Tearful surviving family members bid him farewell with these words, "Go, my children. Go and show the Zionists how brave and heroic are the children of Palestine." The story ends when the boy, laden with grenades, blows himself up in the middle of a group of Israeli soldiers who all have the face of Satan. A friend of the dead boy picks up his friend's blood-stained keffiyeh head-dress, drapes it over himself and walks into the sunset presumably to become a suicide bomber himself.

The Arab news channel, Al-Jazeera, realizing that the world was growing restless with Islam calling suicide bombers "martyrs," has now renamed the act of killing one's self to kill others, "Paradise Operations." The message is clear: kill for Islam and paradise awaits.

The president of Iran has publicly declared Israel should be blown off the face of the planet. Mohamed El Baradei, the head of the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency is a Muslim and he seems to be making excuses for Iran and its advancing nuclear program. El Baradei always wants to give Iran "a little more time" to be honest about a program that was hidden and lied about for almost 20 years. Can El Baradei truly be trusted to monitor a Muslim country? Can he put his responsibility to monitor Iran's nuclear activities above Islam?

In Indonesia, two 17 year old Christians were shot in the head, point-blank, on their way home from church and a few weeks ago three Christian girls were beheaded.

Most of Europe remains in denial that Islam is a real threat not only to their lives but their cultures and way of life. Here in America, people have become complacent about the threat, continuing to cling to the idea that Islam is a nothing more than a peaceful religion that has been high-jacked by a "handful" of bad people. The problem is that this handful equals millions of people who are determined to kill and die for Allah. These terrorists are convinced that a violent death is the only path to paradise.

For the most part, so called "moderate Muslims" remain silent in their condemnation of this mass murder and many quietly cheer the killing. News agencies are reporting that even in Jordan, a country of almost six million people — nearly all Muslim — only a few hundred people took to the streets to protest the recent bombings. Ironically, a Palestinian man was lamenting that he lost family in the wedding bombing. "Muslim killing Muslim — this shouldn't happen!" he cried. But blowing up Israeli weddings is acceptable.

Why has America not been struck again? No one knows for sure but all agree it is just a matter of time before there is another attack on American soil. The appeasers believe that if America pulls its troops out of Iraq, America will be safe. What the peaceniks seem to forget is that America was not occupying Iraq on September 11, 2001. If we pull the troops out of Iraq, Islam will see this action as a sign of weakness and will step up terror attacks around the world. Perhaps fear of mass retaliation from one of the few countries that has stood up to Islam is making the terrorists hesitate. But Islam's apparent success in cowing Europe will give them courage.

Americans need to look at the video of the devastated wedding from Jordan. Next week or next month those videos could be from a wedding in St. Louis or a mall in Minneapolis. It could be grammar school in Toledo or a hospital in San Diego. America is full of "soft targets" and Islam has plenty of people who wish to take part in a "paradise operation." It's coming, America, so are we ready?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara J. Stock is an RN of over 23 years and is fairly new to political writing. She has had articles posted on BushCountry, GOPUSA, AmericanDaily, RepublicanDailyNews, Town Hall, OpinionEditorials, and the Judson Cox Newsletter. She has her own website called Republican and Proud and welcomes comments at dickens502003@yahoo.com

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/stock/051111

[Toga]

Barbara J. Stock
November 17, 2005

How easily the words came from her mouth. The Iraqi female would-be suicide bomber, Sajida Mubarak Atrous al-Rishawi, said so matter-of-factly that she saw the room was filled with women and children. Despite the fact that she knew she would be killing innocent children, Sajida attempted to detonate her bomb vest. Sajida stated, "There was a wedding at the hotel with children, women and men inside." She sounded like she was commenting on the weather.

It was reported that Sajida seemed nervous in front of the cameras. Was she nervous in admitting that she had no guilt or second thoughts about what she had tried to do? Was she making excuses for herself by blaming her husband? "My husband planned it." she said. She was just along for the ride, doing what she was told to do. Does this mean that Muslim women have no minds of their own? Does their strict obedience to their husbands absolve them of their sins?

The words of Sajida Mubarak Atrous al-Rishawi, a Muslim, a woman, and a wife, demonstrate the inherent flaws of Islam. Absolute obedience to the husband overrides the primal female instinct to protect babies and children from harm. These babies and children were Muslim children. They were not even the babies of the enemy. They were innocent babies caught up in the hatred of Islam for those who support anyone or anything that Islam sees as a threat. Does this obedience to Islam obliterate the simplest sense of right and wrong? It seems that it does.

This abnormal mind is the mind of our enemy. It is the mind of a woman who can place herself next to playing toddlers and attempt to blow them up and tear their bodies apart with a bomb containing ball-bearings. It is the mind of a man who can drive a car filled with explosives into a crowd of children eating ice cream with their fathers and kill them. Muslims say that this must be done in the name of Allah for the advancement of Islam.

There are many Muslims who cannot comprehend how such a thing could happen. How could fellow Muslims kill other Muslims in such a brutal and mindless manner? But even these Islamic minds that seem normal on the surface, are warped.

As many Jordanian Muslims curse the name of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, some preface their hatred with statements such as: "I am not ashamed of what his group is doing fighting the U.S. occupation of Iraq, but killing civilians, killing Muslims here in Jordan is shaming." They continue by implying that the killing innocent Iraqi Muslims is all right. The kidnapping and beheadings of civilians is understandable and slaughtering Iraqi police and military is just and reasonable, but bring the carnage to Jordan? That's not acceptable.

Are the Iraqi police and National Guard members part of an "occupying force?" Are the Iraqi children playing in the streets an "occupying force?" Yet, many Jordanians feel there is nothing wrong with what al-Zarqawi was doing in Iraq. There, he was a hero. Muslim minds are warped by Islam to ignore the obvious, accept the unacceptable, and believe evil is good because some mullah or cleric tells them so.

Yet another variety of warped Islamic mind is the one that refuses to believe Muslims actually carry out attacks such as the one in Amman. The imam in the Maktoum Mosque told his listeners that those that carried out the attacks in Amman could not be Muslim, no matter what they called themselves. On the streets after the service, most agreed with the imam. No, it was not Muslims at all, they whispered, it had to be the Jews. There was even an erroneous and later-retracted story about how the Jordanian police escorted out all the Jews from the hotels just before the bombing. To these Muslims, this was proof it was the Jews. These Muslims believe that just as before the 9/11 attack, the Jews were warned and none came into work at the World Trade Center. This was proof to Muslims that it was the Jews that attacked America, not Muslims. Of course, that report was also false, but once heard, Muslims never accept a retraction. Yes, these mosque-goers agreed, it must have been Israeli agents and not Muslims that attacked their people and so, their pained, warped minds were put at ease.

Even after the attack last year at the Hilton Hotel in Taba, Egypt, where nearly all of the fatalities were Israeli, Gen. Fouad Allam, former director of state security in Egypt, made the statement that the attack was "to sophisticated" to have been carried out by anyone other than Israeli agents. Islam, as always, was innocent, proclaimed General Allam.

These warped minds are unable to accept that it is Islam that is responsible for the bombings and the slaughter. Always able to put the blame elsewhere for all of Islam's crimes and problems, Muslims eagerly accept any and all excuses for the sins of Islam, no matter how illogical those excuses may be. If their warped minds can't accept the fact that their "religion of peace" is to blame, the blame is pushed off on the Jews, or justified by claiming it was Islam that was attacked first. Denial is their first line of defense.

Within Islam, the killing of Muslims in other countries is not a crime if those Muslims are behaving in "un-Islamic" ways. If that country's government has contact of any kind with the West, that is considered "un-Islamic." Only killing Muslims in their own country is a crime. These Muslims then convince themselves that fellow Muslims would not do such a thing, so they point the finger of blame towards Israel. These warped Muslims believe Islam is always innocent. No matter how obvious the evidence showing otherwise, Islam is innocent. It must be. It has to be. Their twisted Islamic minds can accept nothing less.

Sadly, this is what happens to the human mind when it must be constantly bent and twisted to accept the unreasonable. The Muslim mind is twisted early in life and while there is hope that it can be made whole again, those who do recover must be willing to abandon friends and family because they will no longer be welcome.

The lucky ones will escape the insanity, and for them it is like being re-born. Their minds now clear of the maddening storm clouds of Islam, they will attempt to start a new life away from Islam. These few must move away from Islam — far away — because Islam will hunt them down and if they refuse to re-warp their minds to fit Islam, they are killed. Only in Islam is the abnormal mind accepted and the normal mind is killed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara J. Stock is an RN of over 23 years and is fairly new to political writing. She has had articles posted on BushCountry, GOPUSA, AmericanDaily, RepublicanDailyNews, Town Hall, OpinionEditorials, and the Judson Cox Newsletter. She has her own website called Republican and Proud and welcomes comments at dickens502003@yahoo.com

© Copyright 2005 by Barbara J. Stock
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/stock/051117

[Ossian]

A mind is like a parachute, it works better when it's open.

You have'nt commented on MuslimA's post. You have'nt refuted it either.

"Barbara J. Stock is an RN of over 23 years and is fairly new to political writing. She has had articles posted on BushCountry, GOPUSA, AmericanDaily, RepublicanDailyNews, Town Hall, OpinionEditorials, and the Judson Cox Newsletter. She has her own website called Republican and Proud and welcomes comments at "

Oh great, a completely unbiased agenda-less source. Thanks.

[minusthejihad]

Before I finish reading the rest of this thread, I'll answer two questions.

- Jack Straw is a little wimpy bell-end. An enemy of Israel, who cares if he had a Jew in the family. We have our mutations too unfortunately.

- No, Jerusalem is not shared. All people cam live and worship there. But it is the undivided capital of Israel and will be for all times sake.

[Mercury]

If it is a rebellion coming from within, of Irananians who want Iran to change from being an international pariah and live free lives (yes i am aware of the horrors committed in Iran especially against educated women). Then yes the West should support them. Not enforce regime change from the end of a long range missile.

Ossian,

I'm counting in my memory the most "famous" totalitarian regimes (such as killed more than 100.000 people). So far I can't remember any that has indeed fallen through the internal rebellion. Do you know one?

[Toga]

A mind is like a parachute, it works better when it's open.

You have'nt commented on MuslimA's post. You have'nt refuted it either.

"Barbara J. Stock is an RN of over 23 years and is fairly new to political writing. She has had articles posted on BushCountry, GOPUSA, AmericanDaily, RepublicanDailyNews, Town Hall, OpinionEditorials, and the Judson Cox Newsletter. She has her own website called Republican and Proud and welcomes comments at "

Oh great, a completely unbiased agenda-less source. Thanks.

I, actually, have. Obviously, the past accomplishments of the Islamic world have no bearing on the current situation.

“Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race,” Musharraf told the delegates to the meeting, which was attended by ministers from 40 Muslim countries.

He pointed to the fact that the collective gross domestic product (GDP) of the Islamic countries was about US$1,200 billion, less than one quarter the figure for Japan, and only just higher than the GDP of Germany."

The above is what President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan said about the Muslim world.

It is very unfortunate that these days the Islamic world and specifically the Arab world is violent, tyrannical, backward, corrupt and devastated. The Arab world is paying a heavy price for its obsession with Israel and hatred of Jews.

[Muslima]

It is very unfortunate that these days the Islamic world and specifically the Arab world is violent, tyrannical, backward, corrupt and devastated. The Arab world is paying a heavy price for its obsession with Israel and hatred of Jews.

So let's get this straight Toga,

You are saying the Arab world's obsession with Israel, is the reason for their being corrupt, tyrannical, backward etc.

You are saying the colonial powers had nothing to do with it?

For the sake of this argument, let us pretend that Israel vanished overnight. Does this mean that you think the corruption, poverty, in the Arab countries would end ?

What do you think is the reason for their being in this situation? and what do you advocate as a solution then?

[Illuminatus]

Muslima wrote:

[.. You are saying the Arab world's obsession with Israel, is the reason for their being corrupt, tyrannical, backward etc. ..]

Not quite, in other words.

What Toga is saying (along with many others) is the "the Arab world's obsession with Israel" simply masks, diverts and thus prevents real progress against a "violent, tyrannical, backward, corrupt and devastated" Islamic world.

^_^

[Muslima]

Muslima wrote:

[.. You are saying the Arab world's obsession with Israel, is the reason for their being corrupt, tyrannical, backward etc. ..]

Not quite, in other words.

What Toga is saying (along with many others) is the "the Arab world's obsession with Israel" simply masks, diverts and thus prevents real progress against a "violent, tyrannical, backward, corrupt and devastated" Islamic world.

^_^

Illuminatus, if you're saying that Israeli aggression against Palestinians is used by despotic dictators to divert attention away from their own injustices against their own people, then i'd say yes, that is something they do. However that is only one of the reasons, and not the main one.
People are waking up though, and seeing things for what they are, and realising what is going on between Palestininas and Israeli's has little to do with their own internal problems.

If this is what Toga meant, he sure didn't articulate it like that. How come you could say in one post what Toga couldn't in a whole thread? He is a waste of space.

[Ossian]

Ossian,

I'm counting in my memory the most "famous" totalitarian regimes (such as killed more than 100.000 people). So far I can't remember any that has indeed fallen through the internal rebellion. Do you know one?

To be fair, i was answering Cato's post in which she said a rebellion was coming soon in Iran. There was one in Iraq was'nt there? around the end of the first Gulf War, but the allies kind of left them to it did'nt they?

[Ossian]

- No, Jerusalem is not shared. All people cam live and worship there. But it is the undivided capital of Israel and will be for all times sake.

Cool, that's in effect, was i was saying! I personaly would love to see the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. To be fair to Israel, i think the way such freedom and respect is given to other religions and their history, even in such an important city for the Jews, is really worthy of respect.

RE Jack Sraw ...there is something 'schoolboyish' about him...