what do you israelians and diaspora jews think of this?

[Womble]

No not skipped, but that's all i had at that moment to post. I'm no expert on Chinese Jewry, but i have read ( i forget where) ,that most did convert or was it all or something like that.

No my dear, you have merely misinterpreted the link you posted in the same very message. I advice you actually read your own links next time before flooding the board with them.

OK granted, in certain aspects, you could say it is discriminatory. Dhimma cannot have equal status to Muslims, the reason being they reject The Prophets (Jesus and Mohammed/ or just Mohammed)

And there you have it. Dhimma cannot have equal status to Muslims. This is all that matters.

Can i ask, which website do you get your Hadeeth's and Quran quotes from? I only ask, because dubious websites twist them to mislead ....

I rarely rely on one website. My favorite source is usually the Italian Muslim Assembly, but the quotes I brought here can be found in the Wikipedia, for example. The Al-Zamakhshari quote is quite famous

It's worth mentioning, that there are differing opinion's on Hadeeth's and the various scholars, not all of these are binding. What is binding is the way The Prophet treated his dhimma .

No, what interests us is which interpretation is being put into action.

Another thing Womble, read the Constitution of Medina, The Prophet gave his dhimma equal status.

Perhaps- but what was actually put into practice by his followers was not the Medina Charter, but the in-your-face discriminatory Pact of Umar.

Finally, About Bernard Lewis,
Yes i agree he is a know historian who has his finger on the pulse. His own words:

"Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century."

Perhaps, perhaps not. He most certainly didn't see it as a good thing though.

[minusthejihad]

The Prophet Mohammed was responsible for that. He explained the Quran , and that is what the Hadeeths are about. The Quran is the direct word of God, and the Prophet was given the task of explaining each of the verses.

Can you please tell us what writing utensil g-d used to write the Koran? Was it life sized? And how big is that?

So one man got to add words to g-d's (supposedly) book, filling in gaps? Do you think since he weilded a lot of power at the time, that he could add words that he felt furthered his agenda at the time such as "Jerusalem"? So there is no objective view of the Koran because the Hadiths are completely subjective? Or do you take every word as truth? Do you doubt anything? When is the last time you have seen a true "act of g-d"?

[Muslima]

Can you please tell us what writing utensil g-d used to write the Koran? Was it life sized? And how big is that?

So one man got to add words to g-d's (supposedly) book, filling in gaps? Do you think since he weilded a lot of power at the time, that he could add words that he felt furthered his agenda at the time such as "Jerusalem"? So there is no objective view of the Koran because the Hadiths are completely subjective? Or do you take every word as truth? Do you doubt anything? When is the last time you have seen a true "act of g-d"?

The Quran was revealed to The Prophet over 22 years MinustheJihad, and it was written down during the Prophet's lifetime, and checked by him.

The hadeeths do actually differ that is why there are different sects of Islam, some follow the hadeeth's of one scholar and some another, however the differences are minor. They are certainly nowhere near as big as the ones in Christianity.

About doubting them, it's worth mentioning that they were very carefully compiled, and there are 4 major scholars who put them together in written form. There are strong ones, and weak ones. Even if there was a slight doubt as to their authenticity, then they were regarded as weak hadeeth's.


The hadeeth's about Jerusalem are actually disputed by some scholars, and if you're interested, you can click the fatwa bank at www.islamonline.net and search for fatwa's on Jerusalem.

The Prophet certainly did not have any power in the beginning, and each verse as it was revealed was written down. The Prophet was illiterate, so he wouldn't be accused of having written the Quran himself.

If you think The Prophet added Jerusalem himself in the Hadeeth's just to increase his power, you will have to explain why he didn't delete the verse in the Quran in which God says he will return the Jews to Israel. That verse more than anything else, is the reason why Muslim's cannot reject the state of Israel for ever. Sooner or later they will have to accept it as God's will and that prophecy will come to pass.


Jerusalem IS referred to in the Quran, "the furtherst mosque" is the Al Aqsa, in this verse and further explained in the Hadeeth's below.......and i apologise to anyone who may think this is proselytising.....


(Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a journey by night from the sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless, in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who Heareth and Seeth (all things)) (Al-Israa' 17:1).

also

The status of Al-Aqsa is clearly explained in the hadith that reads:
"People are not to travel except to three mosques: The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem), and my Mosque (in Madinah)."

[minusthejihad]

So it was an invisible pen?

[Muslima]

So it was an invisible pen?

The Prophet had scribes who wrote down the verses when they were revealed to him by God via the Angel Gibreel. The verses were also learnt off by heart as they are today.

Of the first Quran's compiled, there are 2 still in existence today, one in Istanbul, and the other i think in Tashkent. Not one syllable has changed if you compare them to any Quran in the world.

Tell me , are these the sort of questions that you asked at your yeshiva?

[atricnorth]

muslima, good thing you live in england, as your exposure is different

i challenge you to go to pakistan and indonesia for that matter.

i am worried, you wont have an opinion there, as it is conservative.

i have live with muslims before, you should realise that most muslims where i live are nationalist and are strict religious.

my goodness they still practice polygamy.

try malaysia or indonesia.

[Toga]

The Prophet had scribes who wrote down the verses when they were revealed to him by God via the Angel Gibreel. The verses were also learnt off by heart as they are today.

Of the first Quran's compiled, there are 2 still in existence today, one in Istanbul, and the other i think in Tashkent. Not one syllable has changed if you compare them to any Quran in the world.

Tell me , are these the sort of questions that you asked at your yeshiva?

When will you learn that this forum is not interested what you living in a predominantly Christian land far away from the the Islamic/Arab world have to say about Islam or your prophet which Jews do not recognize?

I don't want to motivate you to start another debate about your religion on here cause you have absolutely nothing to offer except some misinterpretations of our beliefs.

[Toga]

Not everything is mentioned literally in The QUran ,
Jerusalem is mentioned in the Hadeeths by the Prophet.

It is a common fallacy that some people believe, that just because Jerusalem is not literally mentioned in the Quran , it means nothing to us.

I'd post the Hadeeth's here, but i may be accused of proselytising so i won't

Yes, that is what you do best. You proselytize and repeat your fairy tales.

[Mediocrates]

There is nothing wrong with an earnest faith. Just don't bank on finding many followers here.

[Mira]

So there is a guy who moves from Azerbaijan to Netanya and becomes disenchanted with the secular lifestyle in that city so he moves to Kiryat Arba of all places. There, he becomes disillusioned with the Judaism of the people living in that community and starts studying Islam because he is impressed by the relative civility of a simple Muslim man working in a local garage. He moves to Abu Gosh, then he leaves because the people there hate Jews, but they disguise their hatred because the local Jews give them a good living. He claims that Islam among the Arabs in Palestine is weak and that the Arabs should not be the only guardians of Islam, but he now chooses to build his community with them in Hebron. I don't know what to do with people who have no proper place in this world. Maybe they will eventually find each other.

[Mira]

Yes, that is what you do best. You proselytize and repeat your fairy tales.

I don't think she's proselytizing, but then you have a hair trigger about that sort of thing, toga.

[Toga]

So there is a guy who moves from Azerbaijan to Netanya and becomes disenchanted with the secular lifestyle in that city so he moves to Kiryat Arba of all places. There, he becomes disillusioned with the Judaism of the people living in that community and starts studying Islam because he is impressed by the relative civility of a simple Muslim man working in a local garage. He moves to Abu Gosh, then he leaves because the people there hate Jews, but they disguise their hatred because the local Jews give them a good living. He claims that Islam among the Arabs in Palestine is weak and that the Arabs should not be the only guardians of Islam, but he now chooses to build his community with them in Hebron. I don't know what to do with people who have no proper place in this world. Maybe they will eventually find each other.

LOL! Well, you have to understand his complexed background. The man was traumatized by the Soviet regime from the very beginning of his life. He was messed up by the communist ideology. When it disintegrated he moved to Israel not because he wanted to live a Jewish life and improve himself spriritually but because he was searching for the economic benefits. However, in Azerbaijan he probably had many Muslim friends. Than he comes to Israel, a free-enterprise individualistic society. Apparently, it was hard for him to adjust. So, he found a community of some sort which meets his needs. If he found happiness then good for him. The problem is that while searching for a way out of his depression and misery and hopefully finding what he was looking for he has messed up the identity of kids in the process.

[Toga]

I don't think she's proselytizing, but then you have a hair trigger about that sort of thing, toga.

Hon, even the name she picked speaks volumes. Also, take a look at the websites she peddles on here. Personally I find her sort of funny and gutsy. You have to have the chutzpa to market to Jews the prophet the Jews rejected, the religion the Jews don't accept and this:

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

President Musharraf

[minusthejihad]

The Prophet had scribes who wrote down the verses when they were revealed to him by God via the Angel Gibreel. The verses were also learnt off by heart as they are today.

Of the first Quran's compiled, there are 2 still in existence today, one in Istanbul, and the other i think in Tashkent. Not one syllable has changed if you compare them to any Quran in the world.

Tell me , are these the sort of questions that you asked at your yeshiva?

Of course!

[ygalg1]

God does say in the Quran that he will return the Jews to Israel

under which rule the Jews will live in Israel?

The land of Israel is sacred to Muslim's too

The implications of that suit?